A Career in Programming which way to go!

[rubinstu]

I am sympathetic to your cause. Being in the USA we have different terms for degrees, course tracks, etc., so I may not understand the details of your situation 100%. That said, here are some thoughts: 1. You are PLENTY young enough to retrain at any level. There will be some sacrifices, but they will be short term. 2. Focus on skills that are not easily commoditized. Python is great, but it's a tool that is easily learned, and is often used to create "throwaway" code for testing, utilities, etc. It's not really the basis for value-add on major projects. A fundamental understanding of computer science concepts will last your whole career and is not easily outsourced. 3. At least in the USA, bootcamps are quickly earning bad reputations. They teach the tools, not the fundamentals (which would really be impossible in such a short timeframe). Their hiring numbers are generally recognized to be suspect. 4. Unless you have serious personal commitments (like kids), I say dump your day job, and get yourself a genuine 4-year degree in Computer Science, Engineering, or something that will last for years. Borrow, skimp, starve, to do whatever it takes to pay for it. Good luck!

[C0byC]

You mentioned that you are working in horticulture. That's flowers right? ;P I would suggest look at your current situation, what can you see as a 'real world' problem within what you are familiar with. People love to collect and retrieve information, for example, if you are still writing things on paper, create a simple but small application (web page, console app, whatever) that makes collecting that information easier. It is much easier to apply ideas to what you are familiar with, it doesn't matter if there are 10000 applications/systems that does what you want to do, just start with something that you can associate with to make your problem solving and learning easier. After all programming is not writing squiggly packets or text, it's finding a solution to a problem. People using your application/website/system aren't interested in if it was written in .Net, Java, Python, Ruby, C++ or any of the 1000+ programming languages available today, they want something that makes their life easier. You mentioned you are learning Python, great! I started with plain old Turbo Pascal, then C, then VB, then C#, VB.net, Ruby, Pythion.... javascript...etc.. and so on.. :wtf: The point is there is no real answer to "Which way to go" or what programming language to pick, they do have their different uses, but for the most part they do the same thing. (if, else, when, for, foreach, a=b+c etc..) You are also guaranteed that you will learn more then one way of doing things, you will learn how to collect data, save data, retrieve data and present data, all in different languages. :-D Look at what you think is a problem, try and make life easier using whatever language you find more rewarding. Once you can show something to a prospective employee where you took a simple idea and turned it into a simple solution it almost carries more weight than having 10 diplomas or degrees and no work to show for it! Happy learning and happy coding! :)

Over..

[ellisjr]

Well B4DG3R, regardless of which language you choose to learn you will need to understand its syntax and correct usage, whether it's C++, Python, or even English. ;) You will find yourself to be eminently more employable if your English demonstrates your competence before you have even been asked about a line of code. Finally, before anyone flames me, I really do intend this to be a helpful comment as opposed to a snide dig; all language benefits from a thorough check before submission.

[BeerPoweredNoiseFrenzy]

Don't do it. It's hell. Really. Believe me. Why do you think I keep buying lottery tickets?

[mwwallace8]

B4DG3R, As others have said.. Get an internship or a gig that will let you solve some real problems. Hopefully that will be along side of a few people who are experienced so you can get a good feel for the structure and suck up as much knowledge as you can (that is really key.. read other peoples code, pick their brains, listen, try things, fail, repeat). Aside from that try to get good at one or two useful things.. don't worry about mastering every aspect of everything and having a bunch of different tools you are proficient at right away. Once you're good at something small or niche you can get paid for that while advancing your skills at home, school, or through other gigs. For me I started with fixing peoples WordPress sites/websties (hardly programming). The beauty of that particular niche is that very non-technical people can create a site and mess it up easily or not have the ability to make fairly simple alterations. In which case they're ready to work with someone who may only know a little more than them but is more technically apt. This didn't directly allow me to learn from other people.. that came later after it became apparent I was good enough at this stuff to look for full time employment. Then on the side learn something a little deeper and begin looking for more knowledge or ways to obtain gigs in the new area. Starting with websites wasn't the most fun but it allowed me to get into this world, get experience, and learn practical skills. After six years of trying to pick up as much stuff as I can, listening to people, accepting entry level pay, I'm now a senior MVC C# .NET developer at my work. We're doing mobile sites, console apps, windows services, web services, web sites, and all sorts of automation. The ability to transition into that really came from my entry level web experience and learning about interacting with databases and writing code that makes decisions, decisions that solved real problems for real people, troubleshooting http requests, structuring content, etc. Hope this helps. I think this is my first post on here, good luck! :-D

-mwwallace8

[buckrogerz 0]

I have been doing development for 20+ years and I have seen people or all sorts. The first question you really need to ask yourself before you go any further is "Do you want to be a professional student?". We are not developers we are students! I am also in the US so the atmosphere here may not be the same as in the UK (so there is the gain of salt). I would recommend at least a two degree. This is only to get by the people who think you have to have a degree to program. To that end do you have a partner that can support your family while you do your education full time. I worked full time while I got mine and it would have a lot easier if I had not. After you learn one language the others become easier and easier to learn. It is the fundamentals of CS and the soft skills that are important. I hope this 2 cents helps

Buckrogerz

[Kirk 10389821]

Okay, you sound intelligent, and you seem articulate. That's a good start. There are great answers above this one. Get out there. Don't wait for the degree. In capitalism, you can usually get hired if you are willing to take a few less pounds, and have some energy, and want to improve. But think outside the box. Scour the job sources and find what is out there. Go interview with a few of the companies that are looking for people, and see what THEY value in your area. I will warn you one thing. You are 28. You are beginning the cognitive decline phase. You are older for getting started in a world where most 40 year olds are getting out and into management. This is a young persons sport (overall). Everyone is different, clearly. But this is the trend. Most of the old programmers I know are stuck maintaining 40 year old legacy code (like cobol). And most of the ones over 50 are HAPPY with this! == My point is that KNOWING how to program can have you be a manager or a programmer, or both. Be flexible in your goals and see what else might be there. Like everyone else has said. Problem Solving skills are KEY. Experience is more important than education (these days especially). HTH

[AmidstTheRuins]

Pick an area and get good enough at it to get hired. e.g. .NET Desktop apps .NET Web apps Webforms,.NET Web Apps MVC, Java web apps, Python web apps. In other words pick a set of tools (IDE, database) and build things with them. The .NET environment tooling is different from the Java environment despite both being application programming languages. Same can be said for front end web dev or even developing on a different platform e.g. if you use Windows, Mac or Linux. Don't try and learn loads of different platforms to begin with as when you get a job it is likely the main project you are working in will be a single platform. You can learn lots of other platforms once you are hired. Once you have a job after a year you will be able to apply for other jobs such is the demand in the UK. Also you end up repeating yourself which is pointless, for example i'm doing a uni course where I am learning Python and using it to parse HTML and XML. I already have 5+ years experience with C# and .NET so I could do it much quicker with this. I'm not sure I need to know another language currently to perform this task (using Python as it's required for the course). Although learning more than one language is a great thing to do, it's something to do after you have published with your first language. Be willing to apply for jobs outside of a 20 mile radius of where you live and maybe be willing to move. I stayed in the same area but it took me ages after uni to find a job as I only searched in my local area when there are 1000s of developer jobs uk wide. Search for different programming types online and focus on one. Watch training videos on Pluralsight (worth the monthly cost). Pay to speed up your learning - e.g. buy some hosting or cloud credits so you can actually do stuff. It's all good reading loads but if you have done it once this will help when you start a job. This point will be controversial but if you are learning .NET you can start with VB.NET as it is easy to pick up. You can then learn C# alongside or a few months after as it uses the same libraries. You might not want to tarnish your brain this way (learning VB) but it is easy to pick up also there is a lot of demand for Excel VBA which is practically the same (just a different environment). You are always going to need to know SQL and probably XML. Build a tool/write some code which takes a JSON or XML file, serialises it to objects and then inserts it into a database. If you don't know what this is then Google how to do each t

[Terry Slack]

I to went back to School at 30 for Programming. Am have a pretty good career going. That being said, why don't you get your education over with, and look for internships or "Work Terms" during your summer months. Better yet, get into a Coop program. I can almost guarantee that the working relationships you make in either one or all of these places, will lead you to be employed. I found in my case that I was hired before I even graduated. Plus, although you might make a small wage in your first work term, if you prove valuable, there's nothing from stopping you from asking for an entry level wage the next time you work for them. It's a great way to gain experience, setup a network,learn how to code in a professional environment and lay the ground work early for a full time position upon graduation. I have never had anyone ask about my education, other than wanting to know if I had a piece of paper. What you will learn in school will give you a foundation, even if the technology may be out of date. If anything it will teach you to learn on your own. Although you appear to have a good head start on that already. Good luck you.

[Benjamin Liedblad]

Service engineer working in horticulture... is that code for clearing weeds from the cannabis crop? :doh: Not sure of the details of your work, but lets say there are several "locations" you maintain. Does the company you work for have any type of software to track which "locations" have been serviced? Even if the company already has this tool, I suggest writing a Django app (as you are already learning Python) which you could use to track your servicing activities. Work in phases. First track where you have been, then expand the tool to include predictive behavior (i.e. have not been to location "X" in 5 weeks, time for preventative maintenance). You could even have the app create reports on which "locations" are the most problematic - if you add info about what machinery / tools the sites have, you could do comparisons on problematic vs. tool type, etc. As you already have knowledge of the horticulture service industry, you are in a great position to create a software tool like this - don't be discouraged if there already is an app that does this... New apps (though sometimes not better) are always supplanting older ones. The trick is to make yours better.

[jhoga]

One thing I would suggest. Is get involved. Local user groups and Code Camps are great places to meet contacts. Write software for nonprofits, or find a local small business and solve their problems free. Afterward blog about the experience. Writing code is really about learning, and the best way to learn is to do.

[josh clay]

Everybody's story is different, I was still in school for my associate's degree when I got my first coding job. I had taken a couple classes in C# and just decided one day that," Yeah, this is fun, I can do this." I interviewed for an entry-level position shortly after that and managed to get it. I think a lot of people will agree that professional experience outweighs the importance of having degrees or certifications, so the one piece of advice that I can say is consistently correct is to keep trying to get an entry-level job no matter your level of training. You can always keep training on your own time, but just lucking out and getting that first job is the springboard that will get your career going. Not only will you start getting that magical entity of "experience" you will learn exponentially quicker what skills are and are not useful in the real-world. I also recommend joining local developer groups and trying to pick up a mentor, whether it be at one of these or at work. Having someone on your side can save you so much time. There's some warm and fuzzy feeling to be gained by grinding out problems on your own, but sometimes good, old-fashioned wisdom will get you really far really quickly (and hopefully in the right direction). Have fun!

[Doug Langston]

I've managed to support my family for 30 years by being a language specialist, specifically C-based languages (C, C++, C# and Java). C of course is passé, you can skip that one. Once you're employed with these skills you can easily teach yourself other technologies du jour. I believe you need to choose one of 2 paths: primary languages OR web technologies. A language specialist is typically paid more (in large companies) but times are changing. Either choice will make you marketable.

[jhoga]

As a 60+ I say your generalization of old programs is incorrect. I don't maintain legacy code, and have not been impressed with most of the "young" programmers I meet. There is a lot of soft skills required for software development that only come with experience.

[B4DG3R]

That's actually very well said. To be perfectly honest if I am writing on paper I am much better than with a phone! For some reason I do have a very bad habit of short typing words and not double checking before posting. Thank you I will take it under my belt.

[Steve Naidamast]

B4DG3R: It sounds like you are already off to a good start. However, here are a few things to note as you progress... I... Never use accepted word conjugations such as "wanna", "gonna", "kinda", etc. This is terrible and improper English and will be noticed right away in anything you write for a prospective, professional position or to a person in such a position of hiring you may contact directly. This new form of sloppy English is becoming the norm on the Internet and demonstrates a lack of concern for precision, which the software development field is constructed of. II... I completely agree with the commenters here that suggest you continue your studied part-time. However, if you want to remain in the technical areas, depending on the expectations of the nation you are living in, certifications or two-year university courses should be more than enough to get you into a technical position if you can demonstrate other qualifications. If technical management is your goal, than you will most likely require at minimum a university degree. I cannot speak for technical management in Europe but in the United States it is most often a morass of arrogance, technical know-it-alls, and incompetence. From the standpoint of one who has spent 42 years in the technical trenches, your ability to survive in the profession is much better in the pure technical areas than in management. III... I would stay away from "Boot Camps" for learning technologies. They are often just "certificate factories" and have been recently written up as such. They do not prepare you for the real world of software development and engineering. You are far better off becoming a self-taught developer. Because we have to wrestle with finding solutions more on our own, such experience tends to make you a superior developer in the long run. You can learn just as much from a good book and doing your own development projects than you can from an accelerated course. I have taken quite a few courses before "Boot Camps" became popular that were similar in nature and I found most of them to be not only quite tedious but worthless compared to what I was teaching myself. IV... Web development these days sounds very exciting to those who have never done it professionally. However, there are a lot of downfalls to entering the profession from this avenue. Web development today is a complete mess from the Microsoft side of things as it is predicated on what tools you use and not how well you c

[Ian Newson]

I'm a developer and have been professionally for 12 years, and I've been hiring and recruiting developers for the past 8. I think you first need to define what sort of role you'd like to end up in. If you want to work for a large company (a Google or a Microsoft) then a degree is definitely necessary. If you want to work for a small company then not so much. Assuming you don't mind too much where you work (at first, at least) then I'd say it's far more important to be able to demonstrate your abilities. A degree is good, but I've met plenty of developers with a degree who couldn't code, and several without degrees who are experts. If you can demonstrate your abilities through real world examples then people will generally take notice. For example, you could write some apps and release them to the stores, or contribute to some open source projects.

[sasadler]

What kind of programming do you seem to like? There are lots of different areas you could focus on with their own 'popular' languages. I've been building/programming computers since the late 70s and have actually written very few Windows programs. I'm into low level programming where I have pretty much complete control of the processor and peripherals. I use RTOSes(also written a few of my own), USB device stacks, DSP algorithms, etc. You don't have to be a Windows programmer, there are other options out there.

[Lost User]

Pick a "stack", and go nuts. My "stack" is .NET: Windows; C#; WPF; WCF; SQL Server; IIS; etc. Then there's the "LAMP" stack: Linux; Apache; MySQL; PHP. Or, go "mobile": Android; IOS; Xamarin; etc. Then start going to "freelancer" sites and take stock of who wants what ... And start bidding on jobs. You now gain experience working on little jobs and learn "business" at the same time: estimating; client relations; getting ripped off; etc. And, before you know it (if you're good), you have a (5 star) "portfolio" and you're in business. (Starting "another" new SCADA project for the largest company of its kind after "making myself" in just that fashion).

"(I) am amazed to see myself here rather than there ... now rather than then". ― Blaise Pascal

[B4DG3R]

I would just like to say thank you to all that have replied. There is a wealth of information here and I am great full for it all! Thanks again