fake news?
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I'm winding down on a big refactoring project and have had some free time on my hands. The question was, how do I spend it? Well, glad you asked! I've heard a lot about 'fake news' these days and I started digging around. One thing led to another and before long I came across an article stating that Amazon has quietly shelved all books relating to the Holocaust that do not promote the traditional view I learned. Low and behold, it was true. To find out what the brouhaha was about I looked for one of the books that was dropped. It is titled "Debating the Holocaust - a new look at both sides" by Thomas Dalton. To see what all the fuss was about, I found an online copy and started reading it. Well now, I've only just gotten through the first chapter, I must say it makes a number of very intriguing points, raises some very interesting questions but, from what I've read so far, does not offer anything that resembles 'hate literature'. I'll keep reading and see what else it offers. The question is, did Amazon cave in to 'special interest groups' and this is another example of how our civil rights and liberties are slowing being distorted and curtailed? Stay tuned, I'll let you know once I've finished the book.
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You need to ask yourself why the Holocaust lobby exists, why it can not support literature that casts doubt on the Holocaust. At the same time ask yourself why the wiki article on the Holocaust ignores completely the 5 million Slavs who were also killed, or the gypsies, spaniards mentally handicapped gays etc to etc.
Munchies_Matt wrote:
why the wiki article on the Holocaust ignores completely the 5 million Slavs
Maybe you looked at the wrong wiki... Holocaust victims - Wikipedia[^]
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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The Zyklon gas chambers did exist, but were used for delousing and sanitary purposes.
Rewriting history there. Denying the holocaust is illegal here. You'd be saying that all the scientists, witnesses and archives were fake.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^][](X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett)
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
The Zyklon gas chambers did exist, but were used for delousing and sanitary purposes.
That's totally true - dead bodies are present a great sanitary problems!!! And my grandparents (Auschwitz, Dachau, Mauthausen) told, there were a large number of those...
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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A great idea, but just not up here (i.e. Canada) and just now. Up here, the lakes are frozen over. But we always have a few who win the Darwin Award of the Year for not 'believing' a truck and ice house are not heavy enough to go through the ice. Cheers, Ian
Ian Bell, #2 wrote:
i.e. Canada) and just now. Up here, the lakes are frozen over.
In the Chicago area we had about 12 hours of ice fishing or so it seemed this year. Hell, in Canada I'd be out on a daily basis ice fishing if I could, and I have yet to go through the ice in 30+ years of ice fishing. :)
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment "Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst "I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
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Now, really, was it? As for your other question, because noone's pushing it. How many people knows about Holodomor? There's a really big difference betweeen ignorance and outright denial.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
You gave the impression, by not responding to the OPs point, that you had missed it. :) Anyway, Holodomor, never heard of it, until now. These were the Tartars they wiped out was it? I heard they had ben targeted, didnt know the figures though. (just looked it up on wiki) As for the Holocaust, of course Hitler explicitly supported Jewish emigration to Palestine: Haavara Agreement - Wikipedia[^] Doesnt mean he was a Zionist per-se, but it does mean he didnt intend to kill them. So, why didnt it work? Read the small print: "The agreement provided a substantial export market for German factories in British-ruled Palestine" Right, OK, so the nation that 80 years earlier went to war with China so it could continue to sell its population Opium rejected the emigration of Jews from Germany probably because it would damage UK trade. In fact the general resistance to accepting Jews fleeing Germany pre WWII was high: Google[^] Patria was carrying about 1,800 Jewish refugees from Nazi-occupied Europe whom the British authorities were deporting from Mandatory Palestine to Mauritius because they lacked entry permits[^] more than 900 Jews fled Germany aboard a luxury cruise liner, the SS St Louis. They hoped to reach Cuba and then travel to the US - but were turned away in Havana and forced to return to Europe, where more than 250 were killed by the Nazis[^] The Abandonment of the Jews - Wikipedia[^] Things are never as black and white as history pretend
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Thank you Matt. Nice to see someone who does not get his pants in knot and does not lose all perspective. I am starting to get a notion of what all the brouhaha is about just by reading the comments being posted here.
No worries, virtue is never as cheap as when accusing someone of being an anti-semite. :)
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Munchies_Matt wrote:
why the wiki article on the Holocaust ignores completely the 5 million Slavs
Maybe you looked at the wrong wiki... Holocaust victims - Wikipedia[^]
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
Sigh: The Holocaust (from the Greek ὁλόκαυστος holókaustos: hólos, "whole" and kaustós, "burnt"),[3] also referred to as the Shoah (Hebrew: השואה, HaShoah, "the catastrophe"), was a genocide in which some six million European Jews were killed by Adolf Hitler's Nazi Germany, and the World War II collaborators with the Nazis.[^] Perhaps you should not try to evade the truth so desperately. Just google it: Google[^] I count 9 instances of the word 'jew' and not one of 'slav' on the first page returned. I think you get the point.
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Sigh: The Holocaust (from the Greek ὁλόκαυστος holókaustos: hólos, "whole" and kaustós, "burnt"),[3] also referred to as the Shoah (Hebrew: השואה, HaShoah, "the catastrophe"), was a genocide in which some six million European Jews were killed by Adolf Hitler's Nazi Germany, and the World War II collaborators with the Nazis.[^] Perhaps you should not try to evade the truth so desperately. Just google it: Google[^] I count 9 instances of the word 'jew' and not one of 'slav' on the first page returned. I think you get the point.
You may got me wrong here... I just thought you missed it (as it is in a second level article)... I do not state that the Holocaust is a Jewish-only problem (actually the number of Jews killed is about 10% of all the dead)... I also do not deny the importance of those events to other people (Yad Vashem has a full section about non Jewish victims, and I used to read names on the Holocaust day several times, including theirs)... However it is totally true that I mostly learn about and speak about the Jewish aspect, as I'm a Jew... I of course can not explain why on the global level there are much more mentions of the Jews than the Slavs, where the number of victims are very same... Some may offer you a conspiracy, that may or may not be true, but I think it is more about the communist east that was created after the war... The regime was about the deny the past, so for instance the new Hungary has nothing to do with the one collaborated with Germany (it did not existed actually)... So any mention of the Nazi area became a taboo - either for good or bad, and all the Holocaust became a German-Jewish problem... As all the Slav areas in east Europe closed by the communist it may had the effect of silencing any true research and mention of their victims... On the other hand Israel was outside that territory so there people was able to write books and so, and the amount of publishing against the amount of silence created a twisted global picture...
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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You may got me wrong here... I just thought you missed it (as it is in a second level article)... I do not state that the Holocaust is a Jewish-only problem (actually the number of Jews killed is about 10% of all the dead)... I also do not deny the importance of those events to other people (Yad Vashem has a full section about non Jewish victims, and I used to read names on the Holocaust day several times, including theirs)... However it is totally true that I mostly learn about and speak about the Jewish aspect, as I'm a Jew... I of course can not explain why on the global level there are much more mentions of the Jews than the Slavs, where the number of victims are very same... Some may offer you a conspiracy, that may or may not be true, but I think it is more about the communist east that was created after the war... The regime was about the deny the past, so for instance the new Hungary has nothing to do with the one collaborated with Germany (it did not existed actually)... So any mention of the Nazi area became a taboo - either for good or bad, and all the Holocaust became a German-Jewish problem... As all the Slav areas in east Europe closed by the communist it may had the effect of silencing any true research and mention of their victims... On the other hand Israel was outside that territory so there people was able to write books and so, and the amount of publishing against the amount of silence created a twisted global picture...
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
What was there to miss? Sure if you dig you find the figures, but the prima facie fact is that Slavs (and other victims) are hardly ever mentioned. As to why, well Israel depends on the constant presence of the Holocaust in peoples minds for its continued funding and global 'turning a blind eye' to it's ethnic cleansing and theft of Arab land. At least that's the only explanation I can see for it. I question your figure of only 10% of the victims of the Holocaust being Jewish though, its nearer 50% as far as known figures suggest.
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What was there to miss? Sure if you dig you find the figures, but the prima facie fact is that Slavs (and other victims) are hardly ever mentioned. As to why, well Israel depends on the constant presence of the Holocaust in peoples minds for its continued funding and global 'turning a blind eye' to it's ethnic cleansing and theft of Arab land. At least that's the only explanation I can see for it. I question your figure of only 10% of the victims of the Holocaust being Jewish though, its nearer 50% as far as known figures suggest.
Munchies_Matt wrote:
What was there to miss?
I saw there (in the link I added) a full paragraph about the Slav victims - that what I thought you missed...
Munchies_Matt wrote:
I question your figure of only 10% of the victims of the Holocaust being Jewish though, its nearer 50% as far as known figures suggest.
I included the solders too - while this is an other kind of loss they were human too...
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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Munchies_Matt wrote:
What was there to miss?
I saw there (in the link I added) a full paragraph about the Slav victims - that what I thought you missed...
Munchies_Matt wrote:
I question your figure of only 10% of the victims of the Holocaust being Jewish though, its nearer 50% as far as known figures suggest.
I included the solders too - while this is an other kind of loss they were human too...
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
Like I said, if you dig you will find the data, but it IS presented as a Jewish only event. As for including soldiers, since that isn't a racial extermination I wouldn't include them. (OK Holocaust isn't necessarily Genocide, but since it is THE Holocaust we are talking about, then race is a key factor since Nazis considered Jews, Slavs, Gypsies etc as racially sub human.)
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Another thoughtful and considerate respond. Thank you. But again, as I have stated and implied in other comments, my intention was never to spark a political discussion. I am just coming off an intense refactoring session and am just blowing off a little steam. The honest truth is I simply needed an interesting diversion that will help me to relax, I inadvertently came across a blog commentary about Amazon and this led me down the proverbial rabbit hole. For the record, I have never and do not deny any of the atrocities that were committed in WW2. I am a strong believer in hearing both sides of every story and my curiosity leads me to read this particular book. What I find most interesting is some of the 'blowback' I have received so far and this is another of the points addressed in the first and only chapter I've read so far. I am getting the impression the issue is comparable to religious indoctrination and must never be questioned. If this is true, that would be a very, very interesting and telling observation. Cheers, Ian
Yeah, no, I got that. I was just giving my opinion on the topic. We're reaching a point where WW2 was far enough in the past that 'historical tomfoolery' is possible, since those that were actually alive at the time are becoming fewer and fewer. This is both unfortunate (reduces accurate accounts) and fortunate (we can begin to explore the situation from different angles without upsetting as many people.) I never thought about it from the angle of it being akin to religious indoctrination. As you say, if accurate, it would be quite interesting indeed.
