Manufacturers using Tamper Proof Screws on equipment I Bought and Own
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Not 40 kV. Had it been 40 kV, the x-ray negative of your skeleton would have been printed on the wall behind you. The limit was 25 kV, which was just low enough for the leaded glass to keep the x-ray emission from exiting the tube and nuking your progeny. BTW search a little more and you will find bits that will unlock your cryptic screws for you. Triangular, fork-like, torx with a dot, you name it.
No, Not to get into a Side Line argument, but I distinctly remember to have to buy a probe for UpTo 50 kV. My old one went up to 25 kV, and blew a link when used on a HT system marked 40 kV. Should not have tried it, but, at the time 'I was Young and Foolish'. I remember measuring 32 kV, indicating that the Line FlyBack transformer had a few shorted windings. Replaced same, and, the system worked again, bringing the voltage up to the specified 38.75 kV. This was in the late 1980's. I understand the issue with X-Rays, however, the manufacturers of these CRT Tubes must have found a way around the problems. I was at the time fixing TV's for friends, not designing CRT's
Bram van Kampen
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I think this whole topic is not valid in light if reality... The reality? Yes, it's yours to do with what you want - but then you sue after you hurt yourself or burn down your apartment building...(then your neighbors sue you - then all of you sue the iron company) So, you cannot look at this topic without taking into account the liability people like you, yes you, create for honest companies... Two idiots in NJ (some time ago) picked up a running lawnmower and used it to cut hedges...they failed and got hurt...They won in court.... That's why all the 'stupid' restrictions...Now grow up and understand the world your infantile demands have created....
Well,
Member 11375229 wrote:
Two idiots in NJ (some time ago) picked up a running lawnmower and used it to cut hedges...they failed and got hurt...They won in court....
Well, I assume that the defendant in the case left a running lawnmower in a public place, which would be reckless behaviour, punishable by law if an accident occurs as a result. I doubt that the manufacturer of the lawnmower was held liable in that case. There are indeed issues about public safety, which I addressed elsewhere in this discussion. Everybody, in Every Action in their life, does things which can attract liability. From walking down the pavement to crossing the road. If the state were to protect us against all of this, the only way to do that would be a universal directive for everybody to stay at home and in bed. Then we would all die from hunger and thirst. Whereas the manufacturer has a duty to provide merchandise meeting the required safety requirements, the duty to maintain these requirements passes from the seller to the buyer at the point of sale. The point is, that when I buy an Item, it is Mine, to do with as I wish. There are a number of exceptions to this in the UK, which I accept as 'Reasonable' Foremost are the 'Gas Regulations' Although I own my Gas Fired Central Heating Boiler, I am by law not allowed to interfere with it, reason being: I could blow up my neighbours house (as wel as my own) by a faulty service. This is not enforced by secret screws, but, by force of law.
Bram van Kampen
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I get 86 mpg in hybrid mode, and 163 mpg in fully automatic mode. I am still alive, but I now unsubscribing from this thread. I think you are insane. There is no point in continuing this nonsense.
Well, A Keg of Gas Petrol Diesel, Conventional Fuel, will not self ignite if kept in a drum or tank. The reason is, that it needs oxygen and a spark to ignite. Your battery cells have all components in the same container to produce this energy. I am actually not insane, I am a qualified Engineer of more than 40 years standing, and I do know what I am talking about. I am also concerned about your safety, so, please do not just dismiss me as talking nonsense. There is no nonsense about what I stated. In your figures you failed to mention the base line of 'Conventional Fuel Only' You are totally missing the point! That you miss that point worries me more! The Traction battery in your car stores energy! You do not seem to be aware of that concept, and treat it as replacing A1 batteries in a toy. Stored energy can be released in a regulated way by driving the car. Gas or Diesel is also a form of stored energy. In a conventional car, energy is supplied in the form of hydrocarbons, primarily gas, which is burned in your conventional engine. In this case, the fuel from the tank, is burned with the air we all breath. In short, the fuel in the tank kan not combust by itself, there is no oxygen in the tank. Despite the movies, conventional cars rarely explode. In the case of a Battery, there is also a chemical process going. That battery holds all chemicals needed to provide the chemical reaction to release the energy in the form of an electric current to drive your car. Lithium Ion batteries depend upon very finely crushed chemicals, being perfectly mixed. In the process of charging and discharging, the lithium compounds are changed from one compound to another. If this process is less than perfect, metallic Lithium, called Lithium Dendrites are formed They are at first small, but will grow over time, and start with 'self discharge', i.e. a Dead Cell. When a cell self discharges, it generates heat, ultimately causing the cell to melt, and making more short circuits leading into a run away situation, with ultimately the entire pack exploding We have seen this behaviour with mobile phone batteries, There is no reason why propulsive car batteries using the same technology, should be free from this explosion risk. By adding batteries from an unspecified source, you put yourself and others at danger. If you are happy to live with that in the US, fine with me. Just do not bring it to Europe.
Bram van Kampen
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Well, I know these bits, and, they could do the trick, but for the fact that it needs a 3 inch length to reach down the bottom of the 9/32" hole where the screw head is located. The ones for sale here are 1 inch long. They come with an extension which does not fit down the hole. Had the manufacturer used Standard Torq, Pozidrive or Philips Head screws, the problem would not have arisen.
Bram van Kampen
That just means you bought the cheap ones! :laugh: CT0715 X/Long Reach 32PC 150MM Hollow Torx Security Tamperproof Screwdriver Bits | eBay[^]
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Well, A Keg of Gas Petrol Diesel, Conventional Fuel, will not self ignite if kept in a drum or tank. The reason is, that it needs oxygen and a spark to ignite. Your battery cells have all components in the same container to produce this energy. I am actually not insane, I am a qualified Engineer of more than 40 years standing, and I do know what I am talking about. I am also concerned about your safety, so, please do not just dismiss me as talking nonsense. There is no nonsense about what I stated. In your figures you failed to mention the base line of 'Conventional Fuel Only' You are totally missing the point! That you miss that point worries me more! The Traction battery in your car stores energy! You do not seem to be aware of that concept, and treat it as replacing A1 batteries in a toy. Stored energy can be released in a regulated way by driving the car. Gas or Diesel is also a form of stored energy. In a conventional car, energy is supplied in the form of hydrocarbons, primarily gas, which is burned in your conventional engine. In this case, the fuel from the tank, is burned with the air we all breath. In short, the fuel in the tank kan not combust by itself, there is no oxygen in the tank. Despite the movies, conventional cars rarely explode. In the case of a Battery, there is also a chemical process going. That battery holds all chemicals needed to provide the chemical reaction to release the energy in the form of an electric current to drive your car. Lithium Ion batteries depend upon very finely crushed chemicals, being perfectly mixed. In the process of charging and discharging, the lithium compounds are changed from one compound to another. If this process is less than perfect, metallic Lithium, called Lithium Dendrites are formed They are at first small, but will grow over time, and start with 'self discharge', i.e. a Dead Cell. When a cell self discharges, it generates heat, ultimately causing the cell to melt, and making more short circuits leading into a run away situation, with ultimately the entire pack exploding We have seen this behaviour with mobile phone batteries, There is no reason why propulsive car batteries using the same technology, should be free from this explosion risk. By adding batteries from an unspecified source, you put yourself and others at danger. If you are happy to live with that in the US, fine with me. Just do not bring it to Europe.
Bram van Kampen
I wouldn't worry. Looking at the mechanics in the average motor repair place - they are unlikely to have done a better job. In fact - most likely you would take extra care if this was your first time to fix this - compared to people who do it every day and become desensitized to the risks. True story, friend of mine did his own electrical wiring when he built a house. The inspector confronted him and said that it was obvious that it had not been done by an electrician. My friend buckled and told the truth. How did you know, he asked? The wiring was too perfect. Real electricians are as rough as guts. Technically - you are not legally allowed to change your own light bulbs. The world has gone mad. We try way to hard to wrap each other in cotton wool.
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I'm reminded of the line: "Father forgive them, they know not what they do." In your case though, you know not of what you speak. 25KV was not the limit, they used special glass in some of the later tubes, I remember personally encountering voltages of 30KV, and after I had left doing TV repair, reading of 35KV. I have no doubt that things went up from there. Stop showing your ignorance, and let things be said, there are far more knowledgeable folks out there than yourself.
Had this been an electronics forum, I would have probably given a more serious answer than the one I just did. Beyond that, I'll gladly let you have your sense of superiority if that makes you feel better :)
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So-called "tamper-proof" screws aren't designed to keep everyone out, they're just intended to discourage the amateurs. To that end, they're probably effective enough for manufacturers to keep using them.
Well, I would agree with that. At the same time tools should be available to the Non Amateurs.
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Well, I would agree with that. At the same time tools should be available to the Non Amateurs.
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Hi, We all know those screws with no Star, Slot, Philips op Posidrive self tapping screws. Star(Torque) and Hex Drives with a pip in the centre to stop me inserting a standard tool to undo the screw. The question is 'Why' manufacturers go to this length. I am talkin about small domestic appliances, for instance Irons and Toasters. It has been mentioned that they try to protect a patent inside. Well, if I was after discovering an important patent, I would go to the Patents Office, and request the Patent Documentation. Moreover, if I indeed wanted to look inside to see how it works, a hacksaw and an angle grinder would in most if not all cases give me access to the innards. Another reason that has been mentioned is 'Consumer Safety' That comes into play were voltages seriously higher than 240/380 Volt come into play. Historically, a Colour CRT had a voltage applied in the range of around 40kV. Never seen tamper proof screws used in these scenario's. Another app is the Power Supply in a Microwave Oven, which uses a Voltage Multiplier Stack to generate voltages between 4 and 16 kV. Never found any security screws there either. A Further reason stated was: 'No User Serviceable Parts Inside', in other words, This is Our Area, Don't Go There. That is the most annoying one. I do not rent the appliance, I Bought it, and I own it. It is for me to do with as I wish, modify it as I wish, and accepting that as soon as I open or modify it, that I am out on my own, and that factory guarantees are null and void. All in all, I do not accept that I should be locked out of an appliance I have bought, by tamperproof screws. Running a Laundrette for 20 years, Irons fail, mostly because of a temperature over run, and the thermal fuse failing. A Steam Generator Iron? All works on 220/240 Volt. Nothing of extreme danger there. Fit a New Thermal Fuse and the item will work again. By fitting tamper proof screws, the manufacturer makes such repair difficult, if not impossible. We get on average a Year out of an Iron by repairing. On average each Iron needs 3 repairs in it's one year life, before it is written off and dismantled for spares. Tamperproof Screws work against the motto of 'Repair, Re-Use, Re-Cycle' -
Bram van Kampen
www.mcmaster.com and search for tamper-resistant-torx-bits they will set you free! --Bob
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www.mcmaster.com and search for tamper-resistant-torx-bits they will set you free! --Bob
Thanx Bob, There is no issue with tamper resistant torx bits, they are readily available here, and I have a suitable set. it is a three winged Philips bit, of 3 inch length. [McMaster-Carr](http://www.mcmaster.com) does not seem to stock that one either. Thanks for your reply,
Bram van Kampen
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Aren't they?--provided that a "non-amateur" is defined as someone who doesn't mind spending money on a more complete tool kit.
Well, If you had read the complete thread, you would realise that the issue is not one of money, but the fact that a suitable tool is just not for sale
Bram van Kampen
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There is a Right to Repair[^] movement in the US that is trying to stop manufacturers from preventing owners from repairing things. In the US, it's state-by-state legislation. Right now, Nebraska's legislation[^] is the one most under fire. Its amusing to see what excuses and rationalizations the corporations come up with.
I live in Oregon, and I'm an engineer.
Well, Good for Nebraska. Unfortunately I do not live there, I live in Northern Ireland. There is So Far, no equivalent organisation here. Having said that I fully agree with the sentiment, and wish you all success in the future.
Bram van Kampen
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Well, If you had read the complete thread, you would realise that the issue is not one of money, but the fact that a suitable tool is just not for sale
Bram van Kampen
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But then, given enough money and motivation, you will find those ever elusive tools, even when they're not for sale at your local Home Hardware.
No, Not Really In the end, I designed a tool, and got it made in an engineering shop. Regards,
Bram van Kampen
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I wouldn't worry. Looking at the mechanics in the average motor repair place - they are unlikely to have done a better job. In fact - most likely you would take extra care if this was your first time to fix this - compared to people who do it every day and become desensitized to the risks. True story, friend of mine did his own electrical wiring when he built a house. The inspector confronted him and said that it was obvious that it had not been done by an electrician. My friend buckled and told the truth. How did you know, he asked? The wiring was too perfect. Real electricians are as rough as guts. Technically - you are not legally allowed to change your own light bulbs. The world has gone mad. We try way to hard to wrap each other in cotton wool.
Well, my Friend (as you call me) There is a lot of difference between wiring a house, and to diagnose the state of a motive car battery. For starters, the main risk of wiring your own house incorrectly is probably your own house, family, and neighbours getting hurt injured or killed. A Mis diagnosed faulty propulsive car battery can act as a bomb, as destructive as a car bomb set off by a terrorist. There is thus a difference. As for changing Light Bulbs: Yes, the consumer can change these, the law is clear about that in the UK. I have absolutely No Idea about US Law. Don't live there, and have no intentions of ever going there. In the larger frame of the discussion, the way forward is not by having 'Secret Tools'
Bram van Kampen
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Thanx Bob, There is no issue with tamper resistant torx bits, they are readily available here, and I have a suitable set. it is a three winged Philips bit, of 3 inch length. [McMaster-Carr](http://www.mcmaster.com) does not seem to stock that one either. Thanks for your reply,
Bram van Kampen
Ifixit has the bit you need. I have one in a driver case I bought from them. They have some nice tools. Support them if you can, they provide a lot of instruction for DIY repairs.
