Infinite Universe?
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Forogar wrote:
Assuming the Universe is infinite
Fortunately the universe is not. ;) Marc
Latest Article - Create a Dockerized Python Fiddle Web App Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
I think it is infinite. Give me a minute... I think I have a map around here some place that proves it.
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heres the executive summary: [The Freud Museum ~ Education ~ Freud and Religion](https://www.freud.org.uk/education/topic/10573/subtopic/40000/) As far as I know he didn't quite disinclude himself, probably because clear cut conclusions are easy only for stupid people.
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raddevus wrote:
The Universe cannot be infinite
Then where does it end and what's on the other side?
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
RyanDev wrote:
Then where does it end and what's on the other side?
That was exactly the point I was driving at. And, I'm sure you are asking that question rhetorically. However, let us continue this line of thought. The fact that you cannot fathom what is on the other side does not preclude it and infinity is, of course, in a physical world, impossible. Here's your thought experiment to understand why infinity is impossible in a physical world. Thought Experiment Imagine you have a sidewalk that extends through your infinite Universe. You are walking on the sidewalk. Uh, it just continues forever? What would that mean? It's not possible. It's impossible since we know that even the energy (thus mass) is of a limited quantity in the Universe. Now, that gets you to a point where you absolutely must decide that the Universe (physical reality) has limitations. The hard part is that you will now have to confront that reality (few people do and fewer want to) and decide that you now know that physicality cannot be the only thing. Since the Universe cannot be infinite, there has to be an end somewhere. That means you must now contemplate what that means. :) Good discussion. And, I'm sure it's not done. :rolleyes:
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RyanDev wrote:
Then where does it end and what's on the other side?
That was exactly the point I was driving at. And, I'm sure you are asking that question rhetorically. However, let us continue this line of thought. The fact that you cannot fathom what is on the other side does not preclude it and infinity is, of course, in a physical world, impossible. Here's your thought experiment to understand why infinity is impossible in a physical world. Thought Experiment Imagine you have a sidewalk that extends through your infinite Universe. You are walking on the sidewalk. Uh, it just continues forever? What would that mean? It's not possible. It's impossible since we know that even the energy (thus mass) is of a limited quantity in the Universe. Now, that gets you to a point where you absolutely must decide that the Universe (physical reality) has limitations. The hard part is that you will now have to confront that reality (few people do and fewer want to) and decide that you now know that physicality cannot be the only thing. Since the Universe cannot be infinite, there has to be an end somewhere. That means you must now contemplate what that means. :) Good discussion. And, I'm sure it's not done. :rolleyes:
raddevus wrote:
I'm sure you are asking that question rhetorically.
Actually no. I disagree with you that infinity is impossible in a physical world. And I'm serious, if it ended somewhere, what does that mean?
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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raddevus wrote:
I'm sure you are asking that question rhetorically.
Actually no. I disagree with you that infinity is impossible in a physical world. And I'm serious, if it ended somewhere, what does that mean?
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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RyanDev wrote:
I'm serious, if it ended somewhere, what does that mean?
It means your world (Universe) is smaller than you thought...and then instantly it is far, far larger. (You know? :) Because there's a whole other side to the Universe thing.) :)
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RyanDev wrote:
Then where does it end and what's on the other side?
That was exactly the point I was driving at. And, I'm sure you are asking that question rhetorically. However, let us continue this line of thought. The fact that you cannot fathom what is on the other side does not preclude it and infinity is, of course, in a physical world, impossible. Here's your thought experiment to understand why infinity is impossible in a physical world. Thought Experiment Imagine you have a sidewalk that extends through your infinite Universe. You are walking on the sidewalk. Uh, it just continues forever? What would that mean? It's not possible. It's impossible since we know that even the energy (thus mass) is of a limited quantity in the Universe. Now, that gets you to a point where you absolutely must decide that the Universe (physical reality) has limitations. The hard part is that you will now have to confront that reality (few people do and fewer want to) and decide that you now know that physicality cannot be the only thing. Since the Universe cannot be infinite, there has to be an end somewhere. That means you must now contemplate what that means. :) Good discussion. And, I'm sure it's not done. :rolleyes:
raddevus wrote:
Uh, it just continues forever? What would that mean? It's not possible.
So it's impossible because it's impossible? That seems a little recursive. :-D
raddevus wrote:
It's impossible since we know that even the energy (thus mass) is of a limited quantity in the Universe.
Since we can't even see beyond our "tiny" little 91 billion light-year wide bubble of stuff, there's no way to know whether that's true. All we can say is that there's a finite amount of stuff in our finite bubble. I guess it depends on whether we define "the Universe" as everything within our connected spacetime that could have a chance to interact with us and vice versa[^], or the entirety of the space in which our bubble exists. And we haven't even touched on which "infinity" we're talking about! ;P Aleph number - Wikipedia[^]
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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raddevus wrote:
Uh, it just continues forever? What would that mean? It's not possible.
So it's impossible because it's impossible? That seems a little recursive. :-D
raddevus wrote:
It's impossible since we know that even the energy (thus mass) is of a limited quantity in the Universe.
Since we can't even see beyond our "tiny" little 91 billion light-year wide bubble of stuff, there's no way to know whether that's true. All we can say is that there's a finite amount of stuff in our finite bubble. I guess it depends on whether we define "the Universe" as everything within our connected spacetime that could have a chance to interact with us and vice versa[^], or the entirety of the space in which our bubble exists. And we haven't even touched on which "infinity" we're talking about! ;P Aleph number - Wikipedia[^]
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
Richard Deeming wrote:
Since we can't even see beyond our "tiny" little 91 billion...
And this was actually my entire point. No way to know. Except, most "scientists" and mathematicians believe there is a limit to everything (energy) -- except philosophical debates. :) And if what you say is right then why so much confidence in what Stephen Hawking or Brian Greene or Michio Kaku say? I know as much as they do. :laugh:
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You seem to be dodging the question. ;)
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Assuming the Universe is infinite then the number of stars in said Universe must also be infinite and therefore the number of planets orbiting said stars, that can support human-like life, is infinite and therefore the chance of there being at least one other human-like civilisation is infinitely close to 1. Therefore, do you think they would all have developed a Windows 10 O/S?
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
Thats, just like Drakes equation, full of assumptions. And like Drake, you are being rather optimistic. We already know that there is no sign of intelligent life in the observable universe. So, we have to consider the possibility that we are living on the first planet with some form of life. ..in which case we could refer to Windows 10 as "the prime evil" :rolleyes:
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^][](X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett)
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Richard Deeming wrote:
Since we can't even see beyond our "tiny" little 91 billion...
And this was actually my entire point. No way to know. Except, most "scientists" and mathematicians believe there is a limit to everything (energy) -- except philosophical debates. :) And if what you say is right then why so much confidence in what Stephen Hawking or Brian Greene or Michio Kaku say? I know as much as they do. :laugh:
raddevus wrote:
And if what you say is right then why so much confidence in what Stephen Hawking or Brian Greene or Michio Kaku say? I know as much as they do.
Yes, but they know some extremely long technical words they can use to explain it! :-D
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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raddevus wrote:
And if what you say is right then why so much confidence in what Stephen Hawking or Brian Greene or Michio Kaku say? I know as much as they do.
Yes, but they know some extremely long technical words they can use to explain it! :-D
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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RyanDev wrote:
Then where does it end and what's on the other side?
That was exactly the point I was driving at. And, I'm sure you are asking that question rhetorically. However, let us continue this line of thought. The fact that you cannot fathom what is on the other side does not preclude it and infinity is, of course, in a physical world, impossible. Here's your thought experiment to understand why infinity is impossible in a physical world. Thought Experiment Imagine you have a sidewalk that extends through your infinite Universe. You are walking on the sidewalk. Uh, it just continues forever? What would that mean? It's not possible. It's impossible since we know that even the energy (thus mass) is of a limited quantity in the Universe. Now, that gets you to a point where you absolutely must decide that the Universe (physical reality) has limitations. The hard part is that you will now have to confront that reality (few people do and fewer want to) and decide that you now know that physicality cannot be the only thing. Since the Universe cannot be infinite, there has to be an end somewhere. That means you must now contemplate what that means. :) Good discussion. And, I'm sure it's not done. :rolleyes:
raddevus wrote:
we know that even the energy (thus mass) is of a limited quantity in the Universe.
That is not known, unless you use the zero-energy universe hypothesis, but then it doesn't limit the amount of mass either since the net amount of energy is independent of the amount of stuff.
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raddevus wrote:
And if what you say is right then why so much confidence in what Stephen Hawking or Brian Greene or Michio Kaku say? I know as much as they do.
Yes, but they know some extremely long technical words they can use to explain it! :-D
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
Supercalifragilisticoespialidoso?
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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raddevus wrote:
The Universe cannot be infinite
Then where does it end and what's on the other side?
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
The universe could be infinite... Or it could just loop on itself like a circle.. or the surface of a doughnut....
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The universe could be infinite... Or it could just loop on itself like a circle.. or the surface of a doughnut....
A new .NET Serializer All in one Menu-Ribbon Bar Taking over the world since 1371!
Super Lloyd wrote:
or the surface of a doughnut....
So when we find the end of the universe the other side will be the counter of a bakery?
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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RyanDev wrote:
Then where does it end and what's on the other side?
That was exactly the point I was driving at. And, I'm sure you are asking that question rhetorically. However, let us continue this line of thought. The fact that you cannot fathom what is on the other side does not preclude it and infinity is, of course, in a physical world, impossible. Here's your thought experiment to understand why infinity is impossible in a physical world. Thought Experiment Imagine you have a sidewalk that extends through your infinite Universe. You are walking on the sidewalk. Uh, it just continues forever? What would that mean? It's not possible. It's impossible since we know that even the energy (thus mass) is of a limited quantity in the Universe. Now, that gets you to a point where you absolutely must decide that the Universe (physical reality) has limitations. The hard part is that you will now have to confront that reality (few people do and fewer want to) and decide that you now know that physicality cannot be the only thing. Since the Universe cannot be infinite, there has to be an end somewhere. That means you must now contemplate what that means. :) Good discussion. And, I'm sure it's not done. :rolleyes:
The inability to form an infinite sidewalk from a finite amount of matter doesn't prove the universe to be finite.
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Supercalifragilisticoespialidoso?
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
If you say it loud enough, we won't notice that you spelt it wrong! :laugh:
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
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raddevus wrote:
science cannot deal with infinite.
The sum of all positive integer numbers from 1 to infinity is -1/12. Proven by science :)
F-ES Sitecore wrote:
The sum of all positive integer numbers from 1 to infinity is -1/12. Proven by science
When I was a kid, I wanted to see what the largest integer the PDP-11 could count to. Then I wondered what happened when you added 1 to that. It was amusing to discover that I then found the smallest negative number. Marc
Latest Article - Create a Dockerized Python Fiddle Web App Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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The inability to form an infinite sidewalk from a finite amount of matter doesn't prove the universe to be finite.
I know. I was providing something for you to walk on. The point is if you could travel faster than the speed of light toward the end of the Universe then at some point all energy would be exhausted (not from travel but from the limit naturally created by an end of energy and you'd be at the end of the Universe. A physical thing must have an end -- a physical thing without an end is only theoretical. That is why we call it physical and not metaphysical. And I'm not saying that only in theory does the Universe end, I'm saying in fact it does because it is a physical object (we physical objects know this and study this and have our existence in a physical Universe). The instant you say the Universe is otherwise is the same instant it becomes non-physical and my final point then is that "all bets are off". So, the Universe (as studied by Scientists,Philosophers and Mathematicians) is a physical beast and as such has a limit and so has an end. Now you've heard the end of this discussion. :) Since, I've decided I am right. Yes, I'm kidding, but I do think what I've said makes sense. The Universe, if physical -- and it is, must have a limit. And if it isn't physical, then we aren't either. :laugh:
