Losing and regaining the passion...
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It seems like Marc has written most of my post already, much better than what I could've done. Just like with code. :sigh: Anyway, in my experience it isn't what you do that is the problem, it's who you do it with/for. I suspect you would be better off swapping employer. I did that a year and a bit ago, it is one of the best things I've done.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
Jörgen Andersson wrote:
Anyway, in my experience it isn't what you do that is the problem, it's who you do it with/for.
Slowly but surely I'm starting to realize this too. I know when I've hired people I cared much less about things like degrees than way more about personality and desire to do good work. I believe knowing tech tidbit that anyone can Google is even secondary to that.
Jörgen Andersson wrote:
I suspect you would be better off swapping employer.
Funny you should mention that. It's exactly what I'm doing. Yay.
Jörgen Andersson wrote:
I did that a year and a bit ago, it is one of the best things I've done.
Glad it worked out for you man. That's awesome.
Jeremy Falcon
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I have a question for the old timers. The youngins won't understand this unless they've lived a pass life they recall. Anyway, y'all ever get jaded with the technology industry? Just sick and tired of it all? The buzz words. The fact 99% of the industry is BS. PHBs. The acronyms for that matter. The fact that we've all probably lost hair due to our work. Not so much the actual tech, but the relatively young industry that grew up around it. And yet, we do this because we're creators. Programmers are some of the few I've seen will to do whatever it takes to get the job done. Sometimes out of fear of being fired from poor management but sometimes it's out of passion and love for the work of creating. You don't really see that type of passion in most industries. It's so ingrained in tech in fact, I think the industry counts on it. The industry is spoiled by it. And despite this. There really isn't much else we'd rather do. Think about it. We're the future. Technology is taking over the world. Knowing what you're doing with your life, would any old timer rather be a lawyer that doesn't know much about tech? As a whole, we're changing the planet. When I see people like Elon Musk, well that dude is a programmer. He's changing the world. I think it's hard to imagine a life better spent than one helping humanity take the next step. Not every job gets to do that in their tiny way. So has anyone else found themselves jaded for a period while the industry finds itself, yet to only realize that as people we are right where we are meant to be?
Jeremy Falcon
I think I need a rocking chair and pipe to answer this one. I've actually gone through and out the other side of the jadedness. Dave and I talk about it often: a new tech or trend or method or design or way of making coffee comes up and you scratch the surface a little and go "oh yeah - that's like that thing they were doing in '98, but with a bigger font". However, the thing this brings me is pure joy when I see something being done now that was impossible when I started. A dancing Optimus Prime rendered via raytracing[^], or even just basic web applications with beautiful, smooth animations, responsive, intuitive, intelligent. And running on my phone. In fact CodeProject is old enough that we still have code in use that was written to get around the limitations we faced, but which needs to be removed because it's actually holding things back. Technology - and most importantly the creative side of technology - has come so far and has enabled development to go from being creative in the mathematical sense (ie the true sense ;)) to creative in the artistic sense. It's this that (to me) is what is bringing in a wider array of talents and ideas. I do feel, however, that we're living at the end of an age. Full AI will be here sooner than we like, and we are totally, hopelessly unprepared. #goshdernit.
cheers Chris Maunder
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patbob wrote:
mainly because it's always going the wrong direction according to me
It's like market foresting forecasting with stocks. Most folks try to predict the future of it and nobody really knows what the market will do. And it is an interesting ride my friend. Just wait until Japanese robots become the norm.
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
market foresting with stocks
I didn't know the US Forestry Service was involved! ;P
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Japanese robots
Shades of Battlestar Galactica. We're on a repeat cycle.
#SupportHeForShe Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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Jörgen Andersson wrote:
Anyway, in my experience it isn't what you do that is the problem, it's who you do it with/for.
Slowly but surely I'm starting to realize this too. I know when I've hired people I cared much less about things like degrees than way more about personality and desire to do good work. I believe knowing tech tidbit that anyone can Google is even secondary to that.
Jörgen Andersson wrote:
I suspect you would be better off swapping employer.
Funny you should mention that. It's exactly what I'm doing. Yay.
Jörgen Andersson wrote:
I did that a year and a bit ago, it is one of the best things I've done.
Glad it worked out for you man. That's awesome.
Jeremy Falcon
They do the hiring the same way as you did, except that they only demand good enough work. Knowing that with the right people they get good work done. My manager learned how to manage at Deloitte&Touche, using the assumption that everything they did was wrong. My boss might be the smartest person I ever met. He always understand what I'm talking about technically. (yes, that have to be considered rare for bosses in my experience). Never bullshits, never takes bullshit. I've seen him walk out of a meeting with a customer that he couldn't stand. Respect.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
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I think I need a rocking chair and pipe to answer this one. I've actually gone through and out the other side of the jadedness. Dave and I talk about it often: a new tech or trend or method or design or way of making coffee comes up and you scratch the surface a little and go "oh yeah - that's like that thing they were doing in '98, but with a bigger font". However, the thing this brings me is pure joy when I see something being done now that was impossible when I started. A dancing Optimus Prime rendered via raytracing[^], or even just basic web applications with beautiful, smooth animations, responsive, intuitive, intelligent. And running on my phone. In fact CodeProject is old enough that we still have code in use that was written to get around the limitations we faced, but which needs to be removed because it's actually holding things back. Technology - and most importantly the creative side of technology - has come so far and has enabled development to go from being creative in the mathematical sense (ie the true sense ;)) to creative in the artistic sense. It's this that (to me) is what is bringing in a wider array of talents and ideas. I do feel, however, that we're living at the end of an age. Full AI will be here sooner than we like, and we are totally, hopelessly unprepared. #goshdernit.
cheers Chris Maunder
Chris Maunder wrote:
I think I need a rocking chair and pipe to answer this one.
Dude, some of the best conversations ever are done in a rocking chair... on front porch no less.
Chris Maunder wrote:
I've actually gone through and out the other side of the jadedness. Dave and I talk about it often: a new tech or trend or method or design or way of making coffee comes up and you scratch the surface a little and go "oh yeah - that's like that thing they were doing in '98, but with a bigger font".
That's smart to have come out through the other end of being jaded. You're one step ahead of me in that regards. I think it's like our version of a middle-aged crisis man. We've seen things and have to come to terms with it. When I tell people the concepts of MVC and XML started back in the 60s and 80s they're shocked. Sure we called it something a bit different, but the concepts are exactly the same... just with smaller fonts now. This is just comes with experience man. It's like with JavaScript, we were doing functional programming before it was cool. Now it's cool. Yeah people still hate JavaScript, but it's cool to hate now.
Chris Maunder wrote:
However, the thing this brings me is pure joy when I see something being done now that was impossible when I started. A dancing Optimus Prime rendered via raytracing[^], or even just basic web applications with beautiful, smooth animations, responsive, intuitive, intelligent. And running on my phone. In fact CodeProject is old enough that we still have code in use that was written to get around the limitations we faced, but which needs to be removed because it's actually holding things back.
Dude... two words Web GL. Live it. Learn it. Love it. And yeah man, success is a double-edged sword at times. The bigger the site the less you can just go and change crap willy-nilly without impacting people. So you can blame David for marketing CP. It's all his fault. :)
Chris Maunder wrote:
Technology - and most importantly the creative side of technology - has come so far and has enabled development to go from being creative in the mathematical sense (ie the true sense ;) ) to creative in the artistic sense. It's this that (to me) is what is bringin
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
market foresting with stocks
I didn't know the US Forestry Service was involved! ;P
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Japanese robots
Shades of Battlestar Galactica. We're on a repeat cycle.
#SupportHeForShe Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
TheGreatAndPowerfulOz wrote:
I didn't know the US Forestry Service was involved!
Whoops. :-O
Jeremy Falcon
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They do the hiring the same way as you did, except that they only demand good enough work. Knowing that with the right people they get good work done. My manager learned how to manage at Deloitte&Touche, using the assumption that everything they did was wrong. My boss might be the smartest person I ever met. He always understand what I'm talking about technically. (yes, that have to be considered rare for bosses in my experience). Never bullshits, never takes bullshit. I've seen him walk out of a meeting with a customer that he couldn't stand. Respect.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
He sounds like a great guy man. It's like any relationship, great ones improve the quality of your life. Bad ones make it worse. I love the no BS attitude as well man. Glad you you're in a great spot.
Jeremy Falcon
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That's a loooooong answer to a short question. It's not just tech actually. It's been my observation that in most industries actually a significant amount of people just simply do enough to get the job done and that's it. The more people you talk to you the more you realize just how many people are involved in the industry that don't know the first thing about what tech really is. Granted, there is more than one skill set in the world besides knowing bits and bites that is useful, but I digress.
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
significant amount of people just simply do enough to get the job done and that's it
I get what you are saying. I often stumble upon this too. So much supposedly works but, in fact, doesn't actually work (see my recent rant on Nuget/Visual Studio). I often feel like Systems are carried out to a certain place and then just dropped. Now we are at a a place where hundreds of systems are in place that are only partially carried out.
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Marc Clifton wrote:
Actually, I do. I know doctors and nurses that are incredibly passionate about their work. I play poker with guys that run their own construction companies, write editorials for news journals, work for drug companies, etc., and they all love their work. I know a lawyer that is passionate about their work in legal representation for women. They are all involved in "creating", whether it's a deck, an informative article, better medicine, better human conditions.
Marc, why are you trying to ruin my points with reason and logic? :-D
Marc Clifton wrote:
Yes, but then again, the industry is always finding itself, and whatever flash in the pan it finds itself in at the moment is often not one that I'm eager to partake in. That was the case when I was in my 20's, and is so in my 50's now as well. Actually, tech has itself made the flash-in-the-pan effect worse.
I went through that same phase. I'm still going through it. Current industry in any field has done more to dehumanize us than anything I can think of. People aren't aware of their instincts or senses anymore. It's like we're turning into machines that barely think under the illusion we think because we are in our heads. Which isn't always really thinking. Not to sound doom and gloom, but something should be done to change this. We're still humans - for now.
Marc Clifton wrote:
I don't know if I would go so far as to say we are right where we are meant to be. Literally where am I sitting right now (cubicle, insurance company) there are people around me that are doing what they are doing for the paycheck and nothing more. It's frustrating to be mostly surrounded by people that have passion only for the paycheck.
But we are man. We're always where we are meant to be. Every choice we've made in life put us exactly where we are. And our choices dictate exactly where we are meant to be. Once that's accepted it's pretty liberating actually. Because we can always choose something else.
Marc Clifton wrote:
Personally, having gone through a soul searching process a few years back
That's part of the wisdom that comes with introspection and aging and seeing and experiencing more of life I believe. Glad you did it man.
Marc Clifton wrote:
- I'm better off if I ignore
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Current industry in any field has done more to dehumanize us than anything I can think of.
It isn't industry. It is the prevailing beliefs of the people. They think that technology is our only salvation, so they bow to that god. If you can change their beliefs, you will change the world. But one of the major beliefs you must contend with is that things can't be changed! :doh:
It Is The Absolute Verifiable Truth & Proven Fact
That Your Belly-Button Signature Ties
To Viviparous Mama.
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I have a question for the old timers. The youngins won't understand this unless they've lived a pass life they recall. Anyway, y'all ever get jaded with the technology industry? Just sick and tired of it all? The buzz words. The fact 99% of the industry is BS. PHBs. The acronyms for that matter. The fact that we've all probably lost hair due to our work. Not so much the actual tech, but the relatively young industry that grew up around it. And yet, we do this because we're creators. Programmers are some of the few I've seen will to do whatever it takes to get the job done. Sometimes out of fear of being fired from poor management but sometimes it's out of passion and love for the work of creating. You don't really see that type of passion in most industries. It's so ingrained in tech in fact, I think the industry counts on it. The industry is spoiled by it. And despite this. There really isn't much else we'd rather do. Think about it. We're the future. Technology is taking over the world. Knowing what you're doing with your life, would any old timer rather be a lawyer that doesn't know much about tech? As a whole, we're changing the planet. When I see people like Elon Musk, well that dude is a programmer. He's changing the world. I think it's hard to imagine a life better spent than one helping humanity take the next step. Not every job gets to do that in their tiny way. So has anyone else found themselves jaded for a period while the industry finds itself, yet to only realize that as people we are right where we are meant to be?
Jeremy Falcon
Omitted: the often omitted. People doing basic research in fields like chemistry and physics. All the nice toys depend upon them making the materials and means to realize them. They've worked in the background - disdained and mocked instead of heralded with well deserved fanfare - for generations. But this is a world/society that only appreciates the finished product and cannot see beyond the surface. For example, look around your: where is there not the hand of chemistry?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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stoneyowl2 wrote:
I may be looking for bouncers, live music acts and patrons
How much are you paying us to be patrons? I might apply...
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
If you walk in the door and know the secret CP password, I will spot a free drink. If you also know the hidden, locked in the vault, handshake - I might serve you my special: In a shot glass equal parts Tequila, Kahlua, and 151 Rum [Edit] Dang! Now you know it! That was my secret, make it bit in the bar business, taught to me by friends in the Hell's Angels Harley club in Fairbanks.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, navigate a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects! - Lazarus Long
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Yes, I'm kind of at the place right now. I've been doing this for over 30 years and even though the work is awesome at times, the day in day out monotony of trying to figure out code written by someone else is getting to me. That's why I've taken up video creation as a hobby. I think what happens is the we get starved of the creativity part due to poor management and/or long maintenance periods. I'm at that point now. I've created other projects on my own to keep up my knowledge base and for fun, but it's missing the thrill of having someone else use it. I hope that one day soon, I'll get placed on another project and the thrill returns. :-D :thumbsup:
When you are dead, you won't even know that you are dead. It's a pain only felt by others. Same thing when you are stupid.
Donathan.Hutchings wrote:
That's why I've taken up video creation as a hobby.
I've actually begun considering taking up inventing for a hobby or woodworking perhaps (a hand-crafted solid-oak dresser fetches over $800).
if (Object.DividedByZero == true) { Universe.Implode(); } Meus ratio ex fortis machina. Simplicitatis de formae ac munus. -Foothill, 2016
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Omitted: the often omitted. People doing basic research in fields like chemistry and physics. All the nice toys depend upon them making the materials and means to realize them. They've worked in the background - disdained and mocked instead of heralded with well deserved fanfare - for generations. But this is a world/society that only appreciates the finished product and cannot see beyond the surface. For example, look around your: where is there not the hand of chemistry?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
I'm sure you're right. It's just noticeable in technology since we'll that's our industry.
W∴ Balboos wrote:
But this is a world/society that only appreciates the finished product and cannot see beyond the surface
Man this is so true on so many levels. It's sad, but it is what it is.
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Current industry in any field has done more to dehumanize us than anything I can think of.
It isn't industry. It is the prevailing beliefs of the people. They think that technology is our only salvation, so they bow to that god. If you can change their beliefs, you will change the world. But one of the major beliefs you must contend with is that things can't be changed! :doh:
It Is The Absolute Verifiable Truth & Proven Fact
That Your Belly-Button Signature Ties
To Viviparous Mama.
David O'Neil wrote:
It isn't industry. It is the prevailing beliefs of the people.
Oddly enough I just got done reading this very sentiment in another post. Which I agree. I reckon it's more apparent in technology to people in technology, but that doesn't mean it's exclusive to technology.
David O'Neil wrote:
But one of the major beliefs you must contend with is that things can't be changed!
Tru dat. :laugh:
Jeremy Falcon
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Ok, maybe it's 98%. I'm generalizing here.
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
maybe it's 98%
No, its 99% - you were correct. :) The truth is in the facts, and the fact is, the IT world is BS.
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
maybe it's 98%
No, its 99% - you were correct. :) The truth is in the facts, and the fact is, the IT world is BS.
:-\ :thumbsup:
Jeremy Falcon
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I have a question for the old timers. The youngins won't understand this unless they've lived a pass life they recall. Anyway, y'all ever get jaded with the technology industry? Just sick and tired of it all? The buzz words. The fact 99% of the industry is BS. PHBs. The acronyms for that matter. The fact that we've all probably lost hair due to our work. Not so much the actual tech, but the relatively young industry that grew up around it. And yet, we do this because we're creators. Programmers are some of the few I've seen will to do whatever it takes to get the job done. Sometimes out of fear of being fired from poor management but sometimes it's out of passion and love for the work of creating. You don't really see that type of passion in most industries. It's so ingrained in tech in fact, I think the industry counts on it. The industry is spoiled by it. And despite this. There really isn't much else we'd rather do. Think about it. We're the future. Technology is taking over the world. Knowing what you're doing with your life, would any old timer rather be a lawyer that doesn't know much about tech? As a whole, we're changing the planet. When I see people like Elon Musk, well that dude is a programmer. He's changing the world. I think it's hard to imagine a life better spent than one helping humanity take the next step. Not every job gets to do that in their tiny way. So has anyone else found themselves jaded for a period while the industry finds itself, yet to only realize that as people we are right where we are meant to be?
Jeremy Falcon
I've been working at a career in tech (at one level or another) for 30+ years and I hear ya brother. I've been at one company the whole time and never played the "contractor for hire" game or "switch jobs every 3-5 years to get ahead" game that many of the folks here at CP seem to do. Maybe I've missed some (most?) of the BS then? But I do grow tired of the PHBs with MBAs and no common sense, the industry buzz words and constant language / model changes with no real gain. I've watched Apple, Novell, Microsoft, Lotus, Borland, FoxPro, Oracle, ad infinitum, etc... ebb and flow / come and go. I've watched the birth of the World Wide Web (mostly all good) and the death of dial-up (mostly all bad). I used to spend nearly every waking moment (much to my wife's displeasure) working on a computer - either at work or at home. My priorities have changed dramatically over the years though. Now I go days or weeks without touching my home PC. I fiddle with an iPad most nights but not seriously doing much of anything. At work I've risen (???) to a mostly management level - I still get my fingers dirty most weeks but it's in machine logic and CNC machining cycles not hardcore / high level coding. I can't say I'm sick of the industry but I'm a bit jaded and I'm slow to get excited about the next great thing until it establishes itself, matures and shows a little staying power.
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. ~ Ronald Reagan
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I have a question for the old timers. The youngins won't understand this unless they've lived a pass life they recall. Anyway, y'all ever get jaded with the technology industry? Just sick and tired of it all? The buzz words. The fact 99% of the industry is BS. PHBs. The acronyms for that matter. The fact that we've all probably lost hair due to our work. Not so much the actual tech, but the relatively young industry that grew up around it. And yet, we do this because we're creators. Programmers are some of the few I've seen will to do whatever it takes to get the job done. Sometimes out of fear of being fired from poor management but sometimes it's out of passion and love for the work of creating. You don't really see that type of passion in most industries. It's so ingrained in tech in fact, I think the industry counts on it. The industry is spoiled by it. And despite this. There really isn't much else we'd rather do. Think about it. We're the future. Technology is taking over the world. Knowing what you're doing with your life, would any old timer rather be a lawyer that doesn't know much about tech? As a whole, we're changing the planet. When I see people like Elon Musk, well that dude is a programmer. He's changing the world. I think it's hard to imagine a life better spent than one helping humanity take the next step. Not every job gets to do that in their tiny way. So has anyone else found themselves jaded for a period while the industry finds itself, yet to only realize that as people we are right where we are meant to be?
Jeremy Falcon
I've been around longer than most (VAX-11, Sun-1). The excitement for me has always been about learning something new. This industry is perfect for people that are mesmerized by shiny new objects (technologies) and have a passion for solving problems with them. What could be more fun and rewarding?
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
maybe it's 98%
No, its 99% - you were correct. :) The truth is in the facts, and the fact is, the IT world is BS.
Make that the corporate world and I will agree with you.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
-
I have a question for the old timers. The youngins won't understand this unless they've lived a pass life they recall. Anyway, y'all ever get jaded with the technology industry? Just sick and tired of it all? The buzz words. The fact 99% of the industry is BS. PHBs. The acronyms for that matter. The fact that we've all probably lost hair due to our work. Not so much the actual tech, but the relatively young industry that grew up around it. And yet, we do this because we're creators. Programmers are some of the few I've seen will to do whatever it takes to get the job done. Sometimes out of fear of being fired from poor management but sometimes it's out of passion and love for the work of creating. You don't really see that type of passion in most industries. It's so ingrained in tech in fact, I think the industry counts on it. The industry is spoiled by it. And despite this. There really isn't much else we'd rather do. Think about it. We're the future. Technology is taking over the world. Knowing what you're doing with your life, would any old timer rather be a lawyer that doesn't know much about tech? As a whole, we're changing the planet. When I see people like Elon Musk, well that dude is a programmer. He's changing the world. I think it's hard to imagine a life better spent than one helping humanity take the next step. Not every job gets to do that in their tiny way. So has anyone else found themselves jaded for a period while the industry finds itself, yet to only realize that as people we are right where we are meant to be?
Jeremy Falcon
I was sick of it from day 1, but it pays so well. :) IT is no hobby of mine, I keep my hobbies apart from work. Work is work. It pays the bills, well, and I am damn good at it because I always was a good designer, in any medium.
