Losing and regaining the passion...
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They do the hiring the same way as you did, except that they only demand good enough work. Knowing that with the right people they get good work done. My manager learned how to manage at Deloitte&Touche, using the assumption that everything they did was wrong. My boss might be the smartest person I ever met. He always understand what I'm talking about technically. (yes, that have to be considered rare for bosses in my experience). Never bullshits, never takes bullshit. I've seen him walk out of a meeting with a customer that he couldn't stand. Respect.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
He sounds like a great guy man. It's like any relationship, great ones improve the quality of your life. Bad ones make it worse. I love the no BS attitude as well man. Glad you you're in a great spot.
Jeremy Falcon
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That's a loooooong answer to a short question. It's not just tech actually. It's been my observation that in most industries actually a significant amount of people just simply do enough to get the job done and that's it. The more people you talk to you the more you realize just how many people are involved in the industry that don't know the first thing about what tech really is. Granted, there is more than one skill set in the world besides knowing bits and bites that is useful, but I digress.
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
significant amount of people just simply do enough to get the job done and that's it
I get what you are saying. I often stumble upon this too. So much supposedly works but, in fact, doesn't actually work (see my recent rant on Nuget/Visual Studio). I often feel like Systems are carried out to a certain place and then just dropped. Now we are at a a place where hundreds of systems are in place that are only partially carried out.
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Marc Clifton wrote:
Actually, I do. I know doctors and nurses that are incredibly passionate about their work. I play poker with guys that run their own construction companies, write editorials for news journals, work for drug companies, etc., and they all love their work. I know a lawyer that is passionate about their work in legal representation for women. They are all involved in "creating", whether it's a deck, an informative article, better medicine, better human conditions.
Marc, why are you trying to ruin my points with reason and logic? :-D
Marc Clifton wrote:
Yes, but then again, the industry is always finding itself, and whatever flash in the pan it finds itself in at the moment is often not one that I'm eager to partake in. That was the case when I was in my 20's, and is so in my 50's now as well. Actually, tech has itself made the flash-in-the-pan effect worse.
I went through that same phase. I'm still going through it. Current industry in any field has done more to dehumanize us than anything I can think of. People aren't aware of their instincts or senses anymore. It's like we're turning into machines that barely think under the illusion we think because we are in our heads. Which isn't always really thinking. Not to sound doom and gloom, but something should be done to change this. We're still humans - for now.
Marc Clifton wrote:
I don't know if I would go so far as to say we are right where we are meant to be. Literally where am I sitting right now (cubicle, insurance company) there are people around me that are doing what they are doing for the paycheck and nothing more. It's frustrating to be mostly surrounded by people that have passion only for the paycheck.
But we are man. We're always where we are meant to be. Every choice we've made in life put us exactly where we are. And our choices dictate exactly where we are meant to be. Once that's accepted it's pretty liberating actually. Because we can always choose something else.
Marc Clifton wrote:
Personally, having gone through a soul searching process a few years back
That's part of the wisdom that comes with introspection and aging and seeing and experiencing more of life I believe. Glad you did it man.
Marc Clifton wrote:
- I'm better off if I ignore
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Current industry in any field has done more to dehumanize us than anything I can think of.
It isn't industry. It is the prevailing beliefs of the people. They think that technology is our only salvation, so they bow to that god. If you can change their beliefs, you will change the world. But one of the major beliefs you must contend with is that things can't be changed! :doh:
It Is The Absolute Verifiable Truth & Proven Fact
That Your Belly-Button Signature Ties
To Viviparous Mama.
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I have a question for the old timers. The youngins won't understand this unless they've lived a pass life they recall. Anyway, y'all ever get jaded with the technology industry? Just sick and tired of it all? The buzz words. The fact 99% of the industry is BS. PHBs. The acronyms for that matter. The fact that we've all probably lost hair due to our work. Not so much the actual tech, but the relatively young industry that grew up around it. And yet, we do this because we're creators. Programmers are some of the few I've seen will to do whatever it takes to get the job done. Sometimes out of fear of being fired from poor management but sometimes it's out of passion and love for the work of creating. You don't really see that type of passion in most industries. It's so ingrained in tech in fact, I think the industry counts on it. The industry is spoiled by it. And despite this. There really isn't much else we'd rather do. Think about it. We're the future. Technology is taking over the world. Knowing what you're doing with your life, would any old timer rather be a lawyer that doesn't know much about tech? As a whole, we're changing the planet. When I see people like Elon Musk, well that dude is a programmer. He's changing the world. I think it's hard to imagine a life better spent than one helping humanity take the next step. Not every job gets to do that in their tiny way. So has anyone else found themselves jaded for a period while the industry finds itself, yet to only realize that as people we are right where we are meant to be?
Jeremy Falcon
Omitted: the often omitted. People doing basic research in fields like chemistry and physics. All the nice toys depend upon them making the materials and means to realize them. They've worked in the background - disdained and mocked instead of heralded with well deserved fanfare - for generations. But this is a world/society that only appreciates the finished product and cannot see beyond the surface. For example, look around your: where is there not the hand of chemistry?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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stoneyowl2 wrote:
I may be looking for bouncers, live music acts and patrons
How much are you paying us to be patrons? I might apply...
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
If you walk in the door and know the secret CP password, I will spot a free drink. If you also know the hidden, locked in the vault, handshake - I might serve you my special: In a shot glass equal parts Tequila, Kahlua, and 151 Rum [Edit] Dang! Now you know it! That was my secret, make it bit in the bar business, taught to me by friends in the Hell's Angels Harley club in Fairbanks.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, navigate a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects! - Lazarus Long
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Yes, I'm kind of at the place right now. I've been doing this for over 30 years and even though the work is awesome at times, the day in day out monotony of trying to figure out code written by someone else is getting to me. That's why I've taken up video creation as a hobby. I think what happens is the we get starved of the creativity part due to poor management and/or long maintenance periods. I'm at that point now. I've created other projects on my own to keep up my knowledge base and for fun, but it's missing the thrill of having someone else use it. I hope that one day soon, I'll get placed on another project and the thrill returns. :-D :thumbsup:
When you are dead, you won't even know that you are dead. It's a pain only felt by others. Same thing when you are stupid.
Donathan.Hutchings wrote:
That's why I've taken up video creation as a hobby.
I've actually begun considering taking up inventing for a hobby or woodworking perhaps (a hand-crafted solid-oak dresser fetches over $800).
if (Object.DividedByZero == true) { Universe.Implode(); } Meus ratio ex fortis machina. Simplicitatis de formae ac munus. -Foothill, 2016
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Omitted: the often omitted. People doing basic research in fields like chemistry and physics. All the nice toys depend upon them making the materials and means to realize them. They've worked in the background - disdained and mocked instead of heralded with well deserved fanfare - for generations. But this is a world/society that only appreciates the finished product and cannot see beyond the surface. For example, look around your: where is there not the hand of chemistry?
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
I'm sure you're right. It's just noticeable in technology since we'll that's our industry.
W∴ Balboos wrote:
But this is a world/society that only appreciates the finished product and cannot see beyond the surface
Man this is so true on so many levels. It's sad, but it is what it is.
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Current industry in any field has done more to dehumanize us than anything I can think of.
It isn't industry. It is the prevailing beliefs of the people. They think that technology is our only salvation, so they bow to that god. If you can change their beliefs, you will change the world. But one of the major beliefs you must contend with is that things can't be changed! :doh:
It Is The Absolute Verifiable Truth & Proven Fact
That Your Belly-Button Signature Ties
To Viviparous Mama.
David O'Neil wrote:
It isn't industry. It is the prevailing beliefs of the people.
Oddly enough I just got done reading this very sentiment in another post. Which I agree. I reckon it's more apparent in technology to people in technology, but that doesn't mean it's exclusive to technology.
David O'Neil wrote:
But one of the major beliefs you must contend with is that things can't be changed!
Tru dat. :laugh:
Jeremy Falcon
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Ok, maybe it's 98%. I'm generalizing here.
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
maybe it's 98%
No, its 99% - you were correct. :) The truth is in the facts, and the fact is, the IT world is BS.
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
maybe it's 98%
No, its 99% - you were correct. :) The truth is in the facts, and the fact is, the IT world is BS.
:-\ :thumbsup:
Jeremy Falcon
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I have a question for the old timers. The youngins won't understand this unless they've lived a pass life they recall. Anyway, y'all ever get jaded with the technology industry? Just sick and tired of it all? The buzz words. The fact 99% of the industry is BS. PHBs. The acronyms for that matter. The fact that we've all probably lost hair due to our work. Not so much the actual tech, but the relatively young industry that grew up around it. And yet, we do this because we're creators. Programmers are some of the few I've seen will to do whatever it takes to get the job done. Sometimes out of fear of being fired from poor management but sometimes it's out of passion and love for the work of creating. You don't really see that type of passion in most industries. It's so ingrained in tech in fact, I think the industry counts on it. The industry is spoiled by it. And despite this. There really isn't much else we'd rather do. Think about it. We're the future. Technology is taking over the world. Knowing what you're doing with your life, would any old timer rather be a lawyer that doesn't know much about tech? As a whole, we're changing the planet. When I see people like Elon Musk, well that dude is a programmer. He's changing the world. I think it's hard to imagine a life better spent than one helping humanity take the next step. Not every job gets to do that in their tiny way. So has anyone else found themselves jaded for a period while the industry finds itself, yet to only realize that as people we are right where we are meant to be?
Jeremy Falcon
I've been working at a career in tech (at one level or another) for 30+ years and I hear ya brother. I've been at one company the whole time and never played the "contractor for hire" game or "switch jobs every 3-5 years to get ahead" game that many of the folks here at CP seem to do. Maybe I've missed some (most?) of the BS then? But I do grow tired of the PHBs with MBAs and no common sense, the industry buzz words and constant language / model changes with no real gain. I've watched Apple, Novell, Microsoft, Lotus, Borland, FoxPro, Oracle, ad infinitum, etc... ebb and flow / come and go. I've watched the birth of the World Wide Web (mostly all good) and the death of dial-up (mostly all bad). I used to spend nearly every waking moment (much to my wife's displeasure) working on a computer - either at work or at home. My priorities have changed dramatically over the years though. Now I go days or weeks without touching my home PC. I fiddle with an iPad most nights but not seriously doing much of anything. At work I've risen (???) to a mostly management level - I still get my fingers dirty most weeks but it's in machine logic and CNC machining cycles not hardcore / high level coding. I can't say I'm sick of the industry but I'm a bit jaded and I'm slow to get excited about the next great thing until it establishes itself, matures and shows a little staying power.
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. ~ Ronald Reagan
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I have a question for the old timers. The youngins won't understand this unless they've lived a pass life they recall. Anyway, y'all ever get jaded with the technology industry? Just sick and tired of it all? The buzz words. The fact 99% of the industry is BS. PHBs. The acronyms for that matter. The fact that we've all probably lost hair due to our work. Not so much the actual tech, but the relatively young industry that grew up around it. And yet, we do this because we're creators. Programmers are some of the few I've seen will to do whatever it takes to get the job done. Sometimes out of fear of being fired from poor management but sometimes it's out of passion and love for the work of creating. You don't really see that type of passion in most industries. It's so ingrained in tech in fact, I think the industry counts on it. The industry is spoiled by it. And despite this. There really isn't much else we'd rather do. Think about it. We're the future. Technology is taking over the world. Knowing what you're doing with your life, would any old timer rather be a lawyer that doesn't know much about tech? As a whole, we're changing the planet. When I see people like Elon Musk, well that dude is a programmer. He's changing the world. I think it's hard to imagine a life better spent than one helping humanity take the next step. Not every job gets to do that in their tiny way. So has anyone else found themselves jaded for a period while the industry finds itself, yet to only realize that as people we are right where we are meant to be?
Jeremy Falcon
I've been around longer than most (VAX-11, Sun-1). The excitement for me has always been about learning something new. This industry is perfect for people that are mesmerized by shiny new objects (technologies) and have a passion for solving problems with them. What could be more fun and rewarding?
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
maybe it's 98%
No, its 99% - you were correct. :) The truth is in the facts, and the fact is, the IT world is BS.
Make that the corporate world and I will agree with you.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
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I have a question for the old timers. The youngins won't understand this unless they've lived a pass life they recall. Anyway, y'all ever get jaded with the technology industry? Just sick and tired of it all? The buzz words. The fact 99% of the industry is BS. PHBs. The acronyms for that matter. The fact that we've all probably lost hair due to our work. Not so much the actual tech, but the relatively young industry that grew up around it. And yet, we do this because we're creators. Programmers are some of the few I've seen will to do whatever it takes to get the job done. Sometimes out of fear of being fired from poor management but sometimes it's out of passion and love for the work of creating. You don't really see that type of passion in most industries. It's so ingrained in tech in fact, I think the industry counts on it. The industry is spoiled by it. And despite this. There really isn't much else we'd rather do. Think about it. We're the future. Technology is taking over the world. Knowing what you're doing with your life, would any old timer rather be a lawyer that doesn't know much about tech? As a whole, we're changing the planet. When I see people like Elon Musk, well that dude is a programmer. He's changing the world. I think it's hard to imagine a life better spent than one helping humanity take the next step. Not every job gets to do that in their tiny way. So has anyone else found themselves jaded for a period while the industry finds itself, yet to only realize that as people we are right where we are meant to be?
Jeremy Falcon
I was sick of it from day 1, but it pays so well. :) IT is no hobby of mine, I keep my hobbies apart from work. Work is work. It pays the bills, well, and I am damn good at it because I always was a good designer, in any medium.
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Yes, I'm kind of at the place right now. I've been doing this for over 30 years and even though the work is awesome at times, the day in day out monotony of trying to figure out code written by someone else is getting to me. That's why I've taken up video creation as a hobby. I think what happens is the we get starved of the creativity part due to poor management and/or long maintenance periods. I'm at that point now. I've created other projects on my own to keep up my knowledge base and for fun, but it's missing the thrill of having someone else use it. I hope that one day soon, I'll get placed on another project and the thrill returns. :-D :thumbsup:
When you are dead, you won't even know that you are dead. It's a pain only felt by others. Same thing when you are stupid.
Quote:
When you are dead, you won't even know that you are dead. It's a pain only felt by others. Same thing when you are stupid.
How can you be so sure? You've never been dead before, have you? You can't be sure you won't know you're dead and you can't be 100% sure you'll be missed! Also, stupid people do feel the pain themselves. They might not realize it's from their stupidity, but they do feel it! I guess I am at least partially jaded with the tech. Instead of coding I'm commenting on peoples' signatures on CP. Yeah, most of the tech world is crap. And I think that at least partially it's crap because it's driven by profit, not by passion. People will come up with all sorts of ideas to present them as new technologies only hoping to get a pile of money out of it. It has nothing, or very little, to do with the desire to help people.
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Make that the corporate world and I will agree with you.
Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello
:thumbsup:
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I have a question for the old timers. The youngins won't understand this unless they've lived a pass life they recall. Anyway, y'all ever get jaded with the technology industry? Just sick and tired of it all? The buzz words. The fact 99% of the industry is BS. PHBs. The acronyms for that matter. The fact that we've all probably lost hair due to our work. Not so much the actual tech, but the relatively young industry that grew up around it. And yet, we do this because we're creators. Programmers are some of the few I've seen will to do whatever it takes to get the job done. Sometimes out of fear of being fired from poor management but sometimes it's out of passion and love for the work of creating. You don't really see that type of passion in most industries. It's so ingrained in tech in fact, I think the industry counts on it. The industry is spoiled by it. And despite this. There really isn't much else we'd rather do. Think about it. We're the future. Technology is taking over the world. Knowing what you're doing with your life, would any old timer rather be a lawyer that doesn't know much about tech? As a whole, we're changing the planet. When I see people like Elon Musk, well that dude is a programmer. He's changing the world. I think it's hard to imagine a life better spent than one helping humanity take the next step. Not every job gets to do that in their tiny way. So has anyone else found themselves jaded for a period while the industry finds itself, yet to only realize that as people we are right where we are meant to be?
Jeremy Falcon
Oooo, there's so much I could say in answer to that question.... It's something I go over and back on a lot. I started out in life as a pretty happy, simple country boy, working in a tool and die factory near my family home in rural Ireland. Being a contractor, I've had the opportunity to move around a lot, make serious money, see pretty things, etc. But to be honest, there are times when I feel like this job makes me feel old, bitter and jaded. So much of it is politics, drudgery, putting up with terrible work on the part of others, doing battle with boredom, frustration and the physical deterioration that comes with a sedentary job. It goes against a lot of my personal values to tolerate these things, so there is a more or less constant sense of grind. But at the end of the day, I manage my time, I don't take the work home, I get the hell out of work before it's too late, I play my guitars, I run and ski and swim and I keep myself as happy and positive as I can. And at this stage of my life (36) it's likely that I should simply get used to the idea that this is, in fact it. So there's not much point in being angry about it. It is possible, too, to find new things to keep interested in. You can filter out the airbrushed BS trends and find real, pragmatic projects that give value to the world. Learning new things is always fun. Programmers are also generally funny people. So there's that. Don't start quoting Monty Python though, or you'll never finish the conversation. I do wish there were more women in IT in general. It's a bit of a bloke-fest, and a female influence is, I have found, in general a good thing. Depends on the female, of course. So, well, while I guess I don't know that I would say that I'm right where I should be, I'm not totally jaded by the industry. It comes and goes, happiness. 'Tis a fickle fish to catch.
One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas, I don't know.
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I have a question for the old timers. The youngins won't understand this unless they've lived a pass life they recall. Anyway, y'all ever get jaded with the technology industry? Just sick and tired of it all? The buzz words. The fact 99% of the industry is BS. PHBs. The acronyms for that matter. The fact that we've all probably lost hair due to our work. Not so much the actual tech, but the relatively young industry that grew up around it. And yet, we do this because we're creators. Programmers are some of the few I've seen will to do whatever it takes to get the job done. Sometimes out of fear of being fired from poor management but sometimes it's out of passion and love for the work of creating. You don't really see that type of passion in most industries. It's so ingrained in tech in fact, I think the industry counts on it. The industry is spoiled by it. And despite this. There really isn't much else we'd rather do. Think about it. We're the future. Technology is taking over the world. Knowing what you're doing with your life, would any old timer rather be a lawyer that doesn't know much about tech? As a whole, we're changing the planet. When I see people like Elon Musk, well that dude is a programmer. He's changing the world. I think it's hard to imagine a life better spent than one helping humanity take the next step. Not every job gets to do that in their tiny way. So has anyone else found themselves jaded for a period while the industry finds itself, yet to only realize that as people we are right where we are meant to be?
Jeremy Falcon
I don't know. Really, I don't. At the moment all I can tell you is that it's best not to let all that creep through your defenses and take over your life. It's too short to waste any time arguing with idiots. Just let them go fall flat on their faces as often as they must. There is no law that requires you to join them. Anyway, the way 'our industry' works and the daily insanity can erode any enthusiasm. Getting back on my feet is a matter of getting rid of everything that had gone the wrong way and find myself some new and interesting things to do. In fact, I already had deleted my CP account when this topic caught my eye. Now I have come back undead. :-) Back in Black, so to say.
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
The fact 99% of the industry is BS.
How so?
There are two kinds of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data. There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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RyanDev wrote:
Tech is running the world, so how can it be nothing but BS?
My take on that is that more often than not, tech creates a solution for a problem that didn't exist, except in the mind of some penny pincher or stock holder. Does an automated answering system where you have to go through 5 layers of options improve talking to a live person from the get go? Hell no. Does all the record keeping and analysis that goes on behind the scenes improve your auto insurance coverage? From what I've seen, no, all it does is make insurance more expensive by adding layers of services and bureaucracies that people don't know about, like your policy rates going up if you have a low credit score. Does Facebook and Twitter actually improve the quality of people's lives? Everyone credits the Arab Spring to tech like instant messaging, and look where the Arab Spring is now. Has tech actually improved the quality of care we get from doctors? Maybe, but maybe not, what with, for example, the 6 visit "results based" requirements in mental health services based on filling out computerized forms that in no way capture the real issues. Of course, for every example, there is a counter example. I know a lot more about drug side effects, astronomy, physics, etc., because I can look the things up and get informative answers. But let's not forget that all this tech we're creating is accessible to a small % of the world population that has bigger problems than checking their Facebook wall. Marc
Latest Article - Create a Dockerized Python Fiddle Web App Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
Oh the questionnaires and layers of forms.... Flow charts to tell the customer service representative or some algorithm which path to take down the bunny hole to get an appropriate answer. But then technology can also come in and help us with the problems caused by the previous solutions. I am a volunteer firefighter and first responder in my down time. The previous area I worked in implemented a way bloated version of Medical Priority Dispatching and the questions could take a few minutes to get through. The problem is the national standard says the dispatch must be out within a minute of answering a 911 call. The answer that has been implemented is to give a preliminary dispatch of location and type(EMS, Fire; default = Police), and then when the flowchart is completed a second dispatch is made to give more information so that the responders know what they are going to see and need when they get there.
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