Sigh. The EU fucks up again
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Uh... "some people", if you please, not "the people". The majority of Europeans (and even Brits, I'd wager, despite the recent Brexit vote) are behind the EU. That there are vocal and ugly nationalist voices being raised now has less to do with open borders than with the disaster that deregulation of the financial sector has wreaked upon the economies, and some people are looking for an easy target to blame. Of course, immigrants and foreigners provide such an easy target. IF these people had any sense they'd know who their real enemy is: the 1%.
What utter crap. I cant believe you would try to confuse anger over deregulation of banking with the lack of democratic process in the EU. It is utterly ridiculous to do so.
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Munchies_Matt wrote:
If the EU had not forced immigration on Europe
The EU Needs A Three-Child Policy – And China Should Pay For It! | Zero Hedge[^] So, an economic move by Europe, not humanitarian one as Merkel promotes it. It is not about saving people from war elsewhere, it is about our workforce and its economics. Sounds very honest of our patriottic politicians, who are paid to work in our interest, and who would technically ensure a democratic process. The EU is as democratic as a drunk Juncker :thumbsup:
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^][](X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett)
It goes with Germany's deregulation of the labour market, which has driven wages down. Allowing in a million unskilled people, if they ever worked, and most wont, they are muslims after all, will drive wages lower still.
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What utter crap. I cant believe you would try to confuse anger over deregulation of banking with the lack of democratic process in the EU. It is utterly ridiculous to do so.
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I am sorry you are incapable of seeing the bigger picture, being blinded by xenophobia if not pure racism. There is a clear straight line between the banking fiasco and the mess we are in today, economically and socially and politically.
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The UK's a special case, after Brexit. Both the Tories and Labour now have their knickers in a twist over the issue. Both have a split down the middle of their supporters, and both parties are afraid to alienate either half. We're screwed, here, most likely to end up with the worst of everything, with both parties caught in a trap of our own making.
Neither of them were pro-EU even before the referendum. They were lukewarm at best. Only the Lib Dems are actually pro-EU.
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Nevertheless, Sunday's vote marks a significant shift in German politics, with initial projections showing the right-wing populist Alternative for Germany (AfD) party winning over 13 percent of the vote[^] 94 seats will be won by the AFD. Who are they? The party was founded on opposition to Germany's financial support of other Eurozone states and the third main point of its initial platform called for Germany to cede no further elements of its sovereignty to the EU without approval via a referendum[^] Anti islam, anti immigration, anti gay, anti AGW, etc, the usual. If the EU had not forced immigration on Europe, if it had not forced ever closer union on Europe, if it had not dictated and instead listened to the people of Europe, there would not be an AFD. There would not have been a Brexit. The far right would not have gained such support across europe. The EU by its very dictatorial idealism is in fact destroying itself. When will continental Europeans learn for fucks sake.
Munchies_Matt wrote:
When will continental Europeans learn for f***s sake.
:thumbsup: Good question. They are so busy with Trump/America bashing, that they forgot about themselves.
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I am sorry you are incapable of seeing the bigger picture, being blinded by xenophobia if not pure racism. There is a clear straight line between the banking fiasco and the mess we are in today, economically and socially and politically.
A_Griffin wrote:
blinded by xenophobia if not pure racism
WTF? How on earth do you imply that merely from me commenting on the rise of the far right?
A_Griffin wrote:
There is a clear straight line between the banking fiasco and the mess we are in today,
Yes, the deregulation of debt has created debt. We know that. It is pretty obvious. But the rise of the far right is because of the EU's dictatorial disregard for democracy. Look, Germany isnt IN a mess economically. It has not had a recession, is not in debt, has a trade surplus and was in no way impacted by the crash. Yet they voted for the far right in large numbers. You are wrong. Admit it.
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Well I'm not arguing for a single European super-state, but a confederation of semi-autonomous nations would be better equipped to confront global issues than a load of fully independent ones. A farmer, if you want to use that as an analogy, will rotate crops, not treat each field independently - the whole farm has to work as one. Independent countries each selfishly following what they perceive at any one moment as their own best interests is not in the long term best interests of everyone (including them).
So you dont pursue what is in you and your families best interests? Instead you think of everyone else in where ever it is you live, and do what is right for them?
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Well, whatever the case, if Europe needs more people, surely it's better to bring in migrants who need and want to work than to increase the birth-rate. Whatever the economy needs, the planet does not need an ever increasing population. There are people already born queuing up to work - use them!
Your suggestion works well for the first generation. However migrants have a tendency to have larger families, which means that by bringing in migrants a country is generally looking at a demographic explosion within a few generations.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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????? You're joking, right? It had EVERYTHING to do with them. It was they who initiated the deregulation of the financial sector, from which the rest followed as surely as night follows day.
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A_Griffin wrote:
blinded by xenophobia if not pure racism
WTF? How on earth do you imply that merely from me commenting on the rise of the far right?
A_Griffin wrote:
There is a clear straight line between the banking fiasco and the mess we are in today,
Yes, the deregulation of debt has created debt. We know that. It is pretty obvious. But the rise of the far right is because of the EU's dictatorial disregard for democracy. Look, Germany isnt IN a mess economically. It has not had a recession, is not in debt, has a trade surplus and was in no way impacted by the crash. Yet they voted for the far right in large numbers. You are wrong. Admit it.
A bandwagon has been set rolling, and the far right have been jumping on board everywhere. Trump’s election has as much to do with their success in Germany as anything. As you say, nothing that drastic has changed in Germany – all that has is that right feels empowered now to speak out. And the roots of all this lie not in the admittedly poor democratic model – after all, that too hasn’t changed recently. It lies in the harsh times brought on my austerity which followed the economic disaster that was deregulation, and people looking for scapegoats. And the easiest of all are immigrants and the unemployed. It’s a tactic as old as the hills. And the far right love it, and lap it up like hungry jackels. And the bloody MSM played right into their hands – hardly surprising considering who bankrolls them.
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So you dont pursue what is in you and your families best interests? Instead you think of everyone else in where ever it is you live, and do what is right for them?
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TO some degree, yes. I certainly try not to act in a purely selfish manner, whether for myself alone or my family. I will consider my or our actions on others, yes.
So it is OK for you but not for a nation to pursue what is in its best interests?
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I wouldn't compare Europe to the US; the latter is a semi-functioning collection of states with similar interests. You can hardly say that the Dutch have the same interests as the Greeks, nor that they share common goals. Dutch newspapers opened with "Merkels victory feels like a defeat", with the AfD gaining one million votes. Meaning they gained a vote for every refugee entering Germany in 2015. Mr. Macron congratulated Merkel on Twitter, calling for more Europe. It looks like the voters are moving in the opposite direction. You can wave the idea of a global community goodbye :) How long since there was a right party in the Reichstagsgebäude?
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^][](X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett)
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So it is OK for you but not for a nation to pursue what is in its best interests?
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HobbyProggy wrote:
By far you did not understand the election and it's results
So I am British, have lived in many countries in Europe, including Germany. So tell me what I dont know about German politics. Tell me where you think what I said is wrong?
They are going to be in opposition, nobody will seriously work with them. They literally have no impact on law making. They will be thrown out as soon as their candidates don't follow the rules. It is sad, yes, but the impact of them being in the Bundestag won't be big.
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A bandwagon has been set rolling, and the far right have been jumping on board everywhere. Trump’s election has as much to do with their success in Germany as anything. As you say, nothing that drastic has changed in Germany – all that has is that right feels empowered now to speak out. And the roots of all this lie not in the admittedly poor democratic model – after all, that too hasn’t changed recently. It lies in the harsh times brought on my austerity which followed the economic disaster that was deregulation, and people looking for scapegoats. And the easiest of all are immigrants and the unemployed. It’s a tactic as old as the hills. And the far right love it, and lap it up like hungry jackels. And the bloody MSM played right into their hands – hardly surprising considering who bankrolls them.
The right in Germany sees the Islamification of its country and wants to stop it. That is why there is a rapid rise in support for the AFD. Look at the Pegida movement. Its staggering growth which matches Merkels open door policy. Just another facet of the EUs policy which tramples over the people in Europe with complete disregard.
A_Griffin wrote:
poor democratic model – after all, that too hasn’t changed recently.
Yes it has. Islamic immigration has changed. Havent you been watching the news? Of course you have. You know this full well. Stop trying to blame Pegida on the 2008 crash. Stop trying to blame the slide to the far right on the 2008 crash. It is entirely to do with the loss of control people have over their lives because of a dictatorial EU. Immigration and Islamification are a big part of this. For example the support for Gert Wilders in Holland predates the 2008 crash, the murder of Van Gough in 2004 and Pym Fortuyn in 2002 by muslims massively boosted support for the far right. Do you think the French Front National has been having such success only since 2008? Way back in 2003 they came second in the runs offs. The move to the right far preceeds the 2008 crash and is very much a reaction to Islam.