Sigh. The EU fucks up again
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Well I'm not arguing for a single European super-state, but a confederation of semi-autonomous nations would be better equipped to confront global issues than a load of fully independent ones. A farmer, if you want to use that as an analogy, will rotate crops, not treat each field independently - the whole farm has to work as one. Independent countries each selfishly following what they perceive at any one moment as their own best interests is not in the long term best interests of everyone (including them).
So you dont pursue what is in you and your families best interests? Instead you think of everyone else in where ever it is you live, and do what is right for them?
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Well, whatever the case, if Europe needs more people, surely it's better to bring in migrants who need and want to work than to increase the birth-rate. Whatever the economy needs, the planet does not need an ever increasing population. There are people already born queuing up to work - use them!
Your suggestion works well for the first generation. However migrants have a tendency to have larger families, which means that by bringing in migrants a country is generally looking at a demographic explosion within a few generations.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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????? You're joking, right? It had EVERYTHING to do with them. It was they who initiated the deregulation of the financial sector, from which the rest followed as surely as night follows day.
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A_Griffin wrote:
blinded by xenophobia if not pure racism
WTF? How on earth do you imply that merely from me commenting on the rise of the far right?
A_Griffin wrote:
There is a clear straight line between the banking fiasco and the mess we are in today,
Yes, the deregulation of debt has created debt. We know that. It is pretty obvious. But the rise of the far right is because of the EU's dictatorial disregard for democracy. Look, Germany isnt IN a mess economically. It has not had a recession, is not in debt, has a trade surplus and was in no way impacted by the crash. Yet they voted for the far right in large numbers. You are wrong. Admit it.
A bandwagon has been set rolling, and the far right have been jumping on board everywhere. Trump’s election has as much to do with their success in Germany as anything. As you say, nothing that drastic has changed in Germany – all that has is that right feels empowered now to speak out. And the roots of all this lie not in the admittedly poor democratic model – after all, that too hasn’t changed recently. It lies in the harsh times brought on my austerity which followed the economic disaster that was deregulation, and people looking for scapegoats. And the easiest of all are immigrants and the unemployed. It’s a tactic as old as the hills. And the far right love it, and lap it up like hungry jackels. And the bloody MSM played right into their hands – hardly surprising considering who bankrolls them.
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So you dont pursue what is in you and your families best interests? Instead you think of everyone else in where ever it is you live, and do what is right for them?
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TO some degree, yes. I certainly try not to act in a purely selfish manner, whether for myself alone or my family. I will consider my or our actions on others, yes.
So it is OK for you but not for a nation to pursue what is in its best interests?
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I wouldn't compare Europe to the US; the latter is a semi-functioning collection of states with similar interests. You can hardly say that the Dutch have the same interests as the Greeks, nor that they share common goals. Dutch newspapers opened with "Merkels victory feels like a defeat", with the AfD gaining one million votes. Meaning they gained a vote for every refugee entering Germany in 2015. Mr. Macron congratulated Merkel on Twitter, calling for more Europe. It looks like the voters are moving in the opposite direction. You can wave the idea of a global community goodbye :) How long since there was a right party in the Reichstagsgebäude?
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^][](X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett)
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So it is OK for you but not for a nation to pursue what is in its best interests?
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HobbyProggy wrote:
By far you did not understand the election and it's results
So I am British, have lived in many countries in Europe, including Germany. So tell me what I dont know about German politics. Tell me where you think what I said is wrong?
They are going to be in opposition, nobody will seriously work with them. They literally have no impact on law making. They will be thrown out as soon as their candidates don't follow the rules. It is sad, yes, but the impact of them being in the Bundestag won't be big.
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A bandwagon has been set rolling, and the far right have been jumping on board everywhere. Trump’s election has as much to do with their success in Germany as anything. As you say, nothing that drastic has changed in Germany – all that has is that right feels empowered now to speak out. And the roots of all this lie not in the admittedly poor democratic model – after all, that too hasn’t changed recently. It lies in the harsh times brought on my austerity which followed the economic disaster that was deregulation, and people looking for scapegoats. And the easiest of all are immigrants and the unemployed. It’s a tactic as old as the hills. And the far right love it, and lap it up like hungry jackels. And the bloody MSM played right into their hands – hardly surprising considering who bankrolls them.
The right in Germany sees the Islamification of its country and wants to stop it. That is why there is a rapid rise in support for the AFD. Look at the Pegida movement. Its staggering growth which matches Merkels open door policy. Just another facet of the EUs policy which tramples over the people in Europe with complete disregard.
A_Griffin wrote:
poor democratic model – after all, that too hasn’t changed recently.
Yes it has. Islamic immigration has changed. Havent you been watching the news? Of course you have. You know this full well. Stop trying to blame Pegida on the 2008 crash. Stop trying to blame the slide to the far right on the 2008 crash. It is entirely to do with the loss of control people have over their lives because of a dictatorial EU. Immigration and Islamification are a big part of this. For example the support for Gert Wilders in Holland predates the 2008 crash, the murder of Van Gough in 2004 and Pym Fortuyn in 2002 by muslims massively boosted support for the far right. Do you think the French Front National has been having such success only since 2008? Way back in 2003 they came second in the runs offs. The move to the right far preceeds the 2008 crash and is very much a reaction to Islam.
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The right in Germany sees the Islamification of its country and wants to stop it. That is why there is a rapid rise in support for the AFD. Look at the Pegida movement. Its staggering growth which matches Merkels open door policy. Just another facet of the EUs policy which tramples over the people in Europe with complete disregard.
A_Griffin wrote:
poor democratic model – after all, that too hasn’t changed recently.
Yes it has. Islamic immigration has changed. Havent you been watching the news? Of course you have. You know this full well. Stop trying to blame Pegida on the 2008 crash. Stop trying to blame the slide to the far right on the 2008 crash. It is entirely to do with the loss of control people have over their lives because of a dictatorial EU. Immigration and Islamification are a big part of this. For example the support for Gert Wilders in Holland predates the 2008 crash, the murder of Van Gough in 2004 and Pym Fortuyn in 2002 by muslims massively boosted support for the far right. Do you think the French Front National has been having such success only since 2008? Way back in 2003 they came second in the runs offs. The move to the right far preceeds the 2008 crash and is very much a reaction to Islam.
There has always been a right wing, no-one’s denying that, but despite their occasional acts of violence they were a pretty small and ineffectual mob. The only difference now is that they are slightly larger and slightly less ineffectual mob. And I do put a lot of that down to the 2008 crash and the austerity policies that followed, and peoples’ need for scapegoats. Poor housing, low wages and lousy contracts etc etc – all these things are really not down to immigration, but political policies brought about and justified by the economic crash. (And a rise immigration does not equate to a change in the democratic model. How you equate that I don’t know…)
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They are going to be in opposition, nobody will seriously work with them. They literally have no impact on law making. They will be thrown out as soon as their candidates don't follow the rules. It is sad, yes, but the impact of them being in the Bundestag won't be big.
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}93 seats can swing a vote. Anti AGW, anti EU, pro a practical Brexit that works for German business. That is how the AFD will vote. And good IMO.
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There has always been a right wing, no-one’s denying that, but despite their occasional acts of violence they were a pretty small and ineffectual mob. The only difference now is that they are slightly larger and slightly less ineffectual mob. And I do put a lot of that down to the 2008 crash and the austerity policies that followed, and peoples’ need for scapegoats. Poor housing, low wages and lousy contracts etc etc – all these things are really not down to immigration, but political policies brought about and justified by the economic crash. (And a rise immigration does not equate to a change in the democratic model. How you equate that I don’t know…)
The crash didnt hit europe till 2010. Those factors dont affect Germany though. Let me say it again. IT DID NOT HAVE A CRASH.
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The crash didnt hit europe till 2010. Those factors dont affect Germany though. Let me say it again. IT DID NOT HAVE A CRASH.
Yes, I do know this. But Germany and the Germans do not live in isolation, and the right-wing there has been emboldened by what they see going on. But they are still a small minority - they have influence because the mainstream parties are locked in a hung parliament, but their numbers are still relatively few.
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Yes, I do know this. But Germany and the Germans do not live in isolation, and the right-wing there has been emboldened by what they see going on. But they are still a small minority - they have influence because the mainstream parties are locked in a hung parliament, but their numbers are still relatively few.
A_Griffin wrote:
the right-wing there has been emboldened by what they see going on
Which is...?
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A_Griffin wrote:
the right-wing there has been emboldened by what they see going on
Which is...?
Trump, UKIP, Brexit... I think we're just going round in circles here, don't you? The main point of contention being the root causes of the rise of the far right. You think it's immigration and that the mainstream parties aren't listening to the vox populi; and I'm not so much disagreeing with that, as saying that immigration per se isn't actually the problem, but that people have been led to believe it is as this serves politicians well. Either way, we can agree that our political institutions are not serving us well. But I don't think electing the likes of Trump, or any putting any of these far right nutjobs in power is going to help. The world has tried quick-fix solutions before, and they end in great suffering. The EU is far from perfect, but so are individual nation governments, and I believe it offered a better (long term) hope for everyone.
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Trump, UKIP, Brexit... I think we're just going round in circles here, don't you? The main point of contention being the root causes of the rise of the far right. You think it's immigration and that the mainstream parties aren't listening to the vox populi; and I'm not so much disagreeing with that, as saying that immigration per se isn't actually the problem, but that people have been led to believe it is as this serves politicians well. Either way, we can agree that our political institutions are not serving us well. But I don't think electing the likes of Trump, or any putting any of these far right nutjobs in power is going to help. The world has tried quick-fix solutions before, and they end in great suffering. The EU is far from perfect, but so are individual nation governments, and I believe it offered a better (long term) hope for everyone.
You get the good with the bad. The EU has run its course, it is outdated, its raison d'etre has long since past, and its actions, as I stated in my OP, are in fact increasing tension in Europe. Not diminishing it. The EU is an ideal. And as with all ideals it will ultimately fail. It has to be more pragmatic. Let Europe come together through trade, over a period of centuries. Trying to force it together will only result in it falling apart. As we are seeing all over Europe.
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You get the good with the bad. The EU has run its course, it is outdated, its raison d'etre has long since past, and its actions, as I stated in my OP, are in fact increasing tension in Europe. Not diminishing it. The EU is an ideal. And as with all ideals it will ultimately fail. It has to be more pragmatic. Let Europe come together through trade, over a period of centuries. Trying to force it together will only result in it falling apart. As we are seeing all over Europe.
Well, the EU did come together via trade deals - that was the start of it. Perhaps they did try to rush things, but I don't think it should need to take centuries, really... and, despite pockets of right wingers flying flags, and a few places raising their age-old calls for independence (nothing new in Catalonia - and meanwhile the Basque's have gone quiet) I don't think the EU is "falling apart". Despite influence in hung parliament scenarios, the numbers on the far right are still a small minority. There is still a lot of support in Europe for the EU. But they've been shaken, that's for sure. Maybe it'll waken them up a bit.