Sigh. The EU fucks up again
-
So you dont pursue what is in you and your families best interests? Instead you think of everyone else in where ever it is you live, and do what is right for them?
-
TO some degree, yes. I certainly try not to act in a purely selfish manner, whether for myself alone or my family. I will consider my or our actions on others, yes.
So it is OK for you but not for a nation to pursue what is in its best interests?
-
I wouldn't compare Europe to the US; the latter is a semi-functioning collection of states with similar interests. You can hardly say that the Dutch have the same interests as the Greeks, nor that they share common goals. Dutch newspapers opened with "Merkels victory feels like a defeat", with the AfD gaining one million votes. Meaning they gained a vote for every refugee entering Germany in 2015. Mr. Macron congratulated Merkel on Twitter, calling for more Europe. It looks like the voters are moving in the opposite direction. You can wave the idea of a global community goodbye :) How long since there was a right party in the Reichstagsgebäude?
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^][](X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett)
-
So it is OK for you but not for a nation to pursue what is in its best interests?
-
HobbyProggy wrote:
By far you did not understand the election and it's results
So I am British, have lived in many countries in Europe, including Germany. So tell me what I dont know about German politics. Tell me where you think what I said is wrong?
They are going to be in opposition, nobody will seriously work with them. They literally have no impact on law making. They will be thrown out as soon as their candidates don't follow the rules. It is sad, yes, but the impact of them being in the Bundestag won't be big.
if(this.signature != "")
{
MessageBox.Show("This is my signature: " + Environment.NewLine + signature);
}
else
{
MessageBox.Show("404-Signature not found");
} -
A bandwagon has been set rolling, and the far right have been jumping on board everywhere. Trump’s election has as much to do with their success in Germany as anything. As you say, nothing that drastic has changed in Germany – all that has is that right feels empowered now to speak out. And the roots of all this lie not in the admittedly poor democratic model – after all, that too hasn’t changed recently. It lies in the harsh times brought on my austerity which followed the economic disaster that was deregulation, and people looking for scapegoats. And the easiest of all are immigrants and the unemployed. It’s a tactic as old as the hills. And the far right love it, and lap it up like hungry jackels. And the bloody MSM played right into their hands – hardly surprising considering who bankrolls them.
The right in Germany sees the Islamification of its country and wants to stop it. That is why there is a rapid rise in support for the AFD. Look at the Pegida movement. Its staggering growth which matches Merkels open door policy. Just another facet of the EUs policy which tramples over the people in Europe with complete disregard.
A_Griffin wrote:
poor democratic model – after all, that too hasn’t changed recently.
Yes it has. Islamic immigration has changed. Havent you been watching the news? Of course you have. You know this full well. Stop trying to blame Pegida on the 2008 crash. Stop trying to blame the slide to the far right on the 2008 crash. It is entirely to do with the loss of control people have over their lives because of a dictatorial EU. Immigration and Islamification are a big part of this. For example the support for Gert Wilders in Holland predates the 2008 crash, the murder of Van Gough in 2004 and Pym Fortuyn in 2002 by muslims massively boosted support for the far right. Do you think the French Front National has been having such success only since 2008? Way back in 2003 they came second in the runs offs. The move to the right far preceeds the 2008 crash and is very much a reaction to Islam.
-
The right in Germany sees the Islamification of its country and wants to stop it. That is why there is a rapid rise in support for the AFD. Look at the Pegida movement. Its staggering growth which matches Merkels open door policy. Just another facet of the EUs policy which tramples over the people in Europe with complete disregard.
A_Griffin wrote:
poor democratic model – after all, that too hasn’t changed recently.
Yes it has. Islamic immigration has changed. Havent you been watching the news? Of course you have. You know this full well. Stop trying to blame Pegida on the 2008 crash. Stop trying to blame the slide to the far right on the 2008 crash. It is entirely to do with the loss of control people have over their lives because of a dictatorial EU. Immigration and Islamification are a big part of this. For example the support for Gert Wilders in Holland predates the 2008 crash, the murder of Van Gough in 2004 and Pym Fortuyn in 2002 by muslims massively boosted support for the far right. Do you think the French Front National has been having such success only since 2008? Way back in 2003 they came second in the runs offs. The move to the right far preceeds the 2008 crash and is very much a reaction to Islam.
There has always been a right wing, no-one’s denying that, but despite their occasional acts of violence they were a pretty small and ineffectual mob. The only difference now is that they are slightly larger and slightly less ineffectual mob. And I do put a lot of that down to the 2008 crash and the austerity policies that followed, and peoples’ need for scapegoats. Poor housing, low wages and lousy contracts etc etc – all these things are really not down to immigration, but political policies brought about and justified by the economic crash. (And a rise immigration does not equate to a change in the democratic model. How you equate that I don’t know…)
-
They are going to be in opposition, nobody will seriously work with them. They literally have no impact on law making. They will be thrown out as soon as their candidates don't follow the rules. It is sad, yes, but the impact of them being in the Bundestag won't be big.
if(this.signature != "")
{
MessageBox.Show("This is my signature: " + Environment.NewLine + signature);
}
else
{
MessageBox.Show("404-Signature not found");
}93 seats can swing a vote. Anti AGW, anti EU, pro a practical Brexit that works for German business. That is how the AFD will vote. And good IMO.
-
There has always been a right wing, no-one’s denying that, but despite their occasional acts of violence they were a pretty small and ineffectual mob. The only difference now is that they are slightly larger and slightly less ineffectual mob. And I do put a lot of that down to the 2008 crash and the austerity policies that followed, and peoples’ need for scapegoats. Poor housing, low wages and lousy contracts etc etc – all these things are really not down to immigration, but political policies brought about and justified by the economic crash. (And a rise immigration does not equate to a change in the democratic model. How you equate that I don’t know…)
The crash didnt hit europe till 2010. Those factors dont affect Germany though. Let me say it again. IT DID NOT HAVE A CRASH.
-
The crash didnt hit europe till 2010. Those factors dont affect Germany though. Let me say it again. IT DID NOT HAVE A CRASH.
Yes, I do know this. But Germany and the Germans do not live in isolation, and the right-wing there has been emboldened by what they see going on. But they are still a small minority - they have influence because the mainstream parties are locked in a hung parliament, but their numbers are still relatively few.
-
Yes, I do know this. But Germany and the Germans do not live in isolation, and the right-wing there has been emboldened by what they see going on. But they are still a small minority - they have influence because the mainstream parties are locked in a hung parliament, but their numbers are still relatively few.
A_Griffin wrote:
the right-wing there has been emboldened by what they see going on
Which is...?
-
A_Griffin wrote:
the right-wing there has been emboldened by what they see going on
Which is...?
Trump, UKIP, Brexit... I think we're just going round in circles here, don't you? The main point of contention being the root causes of the rise of the far right. You think it's immigration and that the mainstream parties aren't listening to the vox populi; and I'm not so much disagreeing with that, as saying that immigration per se isn't actually the problem, but that people have been led to believe it is as this serves politicians well. Either way, we can agree that our political institutions are not serving us well. But I don't think electing the likes of Trump, or any putting any of these far right nutjobs in power is going to help. The world has tried quick-fix solutions before, and they end in great suffering. The EU is far from perfect, but so are individual nation governments, and I believe it offered a better (long term) hope for everyone.
-
Trump, UKIP, Brexit... I think we're just going round in circles here, don't you? The main point of contention being the root causes of the rise of the far right. You think it's immigration and that the mainstream parties aren't listening to the vox populi; and I'm not so much disagreeing with that, as saying that immigration per se isn't actually the problem, but that people have been led to believe it is as this serves politicians well. Either way, we can agree that our political institutions are not serving us well. But I don't think electing the likes of Trump, or any putting any of these far right nutjobs in power is going to help. The world has tried quick-fix solutions before, and they end in great suffering. The EU is far from perfect, but so are individual nation governments, and I believe it offered a better (long term) hope for everyone.
You get the good with the bad. The EU has run its course, it is outdated, its raison d'etre has long since past, and its actions, as I stated in my OP, are in fact increasing tension in Europe. Not diminishing it. The EU is an ideal. And as with all ideals it will ultimately fail. It has to be more pragmatic. Let Europe come together through trade, over a period of centuries. Trying to force it together will only result in it falling apart. As we are seeing all over Europe.
-
You get the good with the bad. The EU has run its course, it is outdated, its raison d'etre has long since past, and its actions, as I stated in my OP, are in fact increasing tension in Europe. Not diminishing it. The EU is an ideal. And as with all ideals it will ultimately fail. It has to be more pragmatic. Let Europe come together through trade, over a period of centuries. Trying to force it together will only result in it falling apart. As we are seeing all over Europe.
Well, the EU did come together via trade deals - that was the start of it. Perhaps they did try to rush things, but I don't think it should need to take centuries, really... and, despite pockets of right wingers flying flags, and a few places raising their age-old calls for independence (nothing new in Catalonia - and meanwhile the Basque's have gone quiet) I don't think the EU is "falling apart". Despite influence in hung parliament scenarios, the numbers on the far right are still a small minority. There is still a lot of support in Europe for the EU. But they've been shaken, that's for sure. Maybe it'll waken them up a bit.
-
Munchies_Matt wrote:
When will continental Europeans learn for f***s sake.
:thumbsup: Good question. They are so busy with Trump/America bashing, that they forgot about themselves.
:)
-
Well, the EU did come together via trade deals - that was the start of it. Perhaps they did try to rush things, but I don't think it should need to take centuries, really... and, despite pockets of right wingers flying flags, and a few places raising their age-old calls for independence (nothing new in Catalonia - and meanwhile the Basque's have gone quiet) I don't think the EU is "falling apart". Despite influence in hung parliament scenarios, the numbers on the far right are still a small minority. There is still a lot of support in Europe for the EU. But they've been shaken, that's for sure. Maybe it'll waken them up a bit.
A_Griffin wrote:
I don't think it should need to take centuries, really.
It will. Change doesnt happen quickly. We all need to speak one language first. Thats the way for true freedom of movement to work. How can a Greek get work in Germany? That is what is supposed to happen when a region of an economy does badly and another does well. They cant. They cant speak German. I am really pro Europe, christ, I live there, and have done for 16 years, but the EU is a strangle hold. Wasteful. Parasitic. And with all its pretence to a united Europe actually quite ineffectual in simple ways. Why does Germany have solar farms in Germany? Put them in Spain where the land is worth less and they would make 5 times as much power! Why not? Because they are a seperate nation to SPain. Its a joke. Then the fittings for GPL in cars. Each country has its own type. And this was a technology introduced AFTER the EU existed! Dear oh christ, they couldnt even sort that out! Then the expansion into southern ex soviet states. Why is the EU expansionist? What concern is it to them, these -stans? It is dictatorial, un elected, self serving, and a nice little club for those in the ruling elite, with their no income tax, thousands of euros a month perks!
-
HobbyProggy wrote:
Well the votes gained by AFD were roughly 60% protest votes and not by commitment to the party.
Sorry but this is exactly the most dangerous aspect of all. If more people had done this "protest votes" and they had won a higher percentage... that would have brought no fun at all. If you want to do a protest vote against politicians, make your vote not valid / null or whatever it is called that move. But don't vote a right wing party without any concrete plan as "revenge" because that's one of the stupidest things that can be done.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
-
A_Griffin wrote:
The majority of Europeans (and even Brits, I'd wager, despite the recent Brexit vote) are behind the EU.
And exactly what evidence do you have for that claim? The majority of Europeans, I suspect, are in favour of the Common Market (which we voted for 40 years ago), but not the EU superstate (which none of us voted for).
Richard MacCutchan wrote:
suspect, are in favour of the Common Market (which we voted for 40 years ago), but not the EU superstate (which none of us voted for).
At least I do too.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.