Sigh. The EU fucks up again
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A_Griffin wrote:
the right-wing there has been emboldened by what they see going on
Which is...?
Trump, UKIP, Brexit... I think we're just going round in circles here, don't you? The main point of contention being the root causes of the rise of the far right. You think it's immigration and that the mainstream parties aren't listening to the vox populi; and I'm not so much disagreeing with that, as saying that immigration per se isn't actually the problem, but that people have been led to believe it is as this serves politicians well. Either way, we can agree that our political institutions are not serving us well. But I don't think electing the likes of Trump, or any putting any of these far right nutjobs in power is going to help. The world has tried quick-fix solutions before, and they end in great suffering. The EU is far from perfect, but so are individual nation governments, and I believe it offered a better (long term) hope for everyone.
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Trump, UKIP, Brexit... I think we're just going round in circles here, don't you? The main point of contention being the root causes of the rise of the far right. You think it's immigration and that the mainstream parties aren't listening to the vox populi; and I'm not so much disagreeing with that, as saying that immigration per se isn't actually the problem, but that people have been led to believe it is as this serves politicians well. Either way, we can agree that our political institutions are not serving us well. But I don't think electing the likes of Trump, or any putting any of these far right nutjobs in power is going to help. The world has tried quick-fix solutions before, and they end in great suffering. The EU is far from perfect, but so are individual nation governments, and I believe it offered a better (long term) hope for everyone.
You get the good with the bad. The EU has run its course, it is outdated, its raison d'etre has long since past, and its actions, as I stated in my OP, are in fact increasing tension in Europe. Not diminishing it. The EU is an ideal. And as with all ideals it will ultimately fail. It has to be more pragmatic. Let Europe come together through trade, over a period of centuries. Trying to force it together will only result in it falling apart. As we are seeing all over Europe.
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You get the good with the bad. The EU has run its course, it is outdated, its raison d'etre has long since past, and its actions, as I stated in my OP, are in fact increasing tension in Europe. Not diminishing it. The EU is an ideal. And as with all ideals it will ultimately fail. It has to be more pragmatic. Let Europe come together through trade, over a period of centuries. Trying to force it together will only result in it falling apart. As we are seeing all over Europe.
Well, the EU did come together via trade deals - that was the start of it. Perhaps they did try to rush things, but I don't think it should need to take centuries, really... and, despite pockets of right wingers flying flags, and a few places raising their age-old calls for independence (nothing new in Catalonia - and meanwhile the Basque's have gone quiet) I don't think the EU is "falling apart". Despite influence in hung parliament scenarios, the numbers on the far right are still a small minority. There is still a lot of support in Europe for the EU. But they've been shaken, that's for sure. Maybe it'll waken them up a bit.
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Munchies_Matt wrote:
When will continental Europeans learn for f***s sake.
:thumbsup: Good question. They are so busy with Trump/America bashing, that they forgot about themselves.
:)
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Well, the EU did come together via trade deals - that was the start of it. Perhaps they did try to rush things, but I don't think it should need to take centuries, really... and, despite pockets of right wingers flying flags, and a few places raising their age-old calls for independence (nothing new in Catalonia - and meanwhile the Basque's have gone quiet) I don't think the EU is "falling apart". Despite influence in hung parliament scenarios, the numbers on the far right are still a small minority. There is still a lot of support in Europe for the EU. But they've been shaken, that's for sure. Maybe it'll waken them up a bit.
A_Griffin wrote:
I don't think it should need to take centuries, really.
It will. Change doesnt happen quickly. We all need to speak one language first. Thats the way for true freedom of movement to work. How can a Greek get work in Germany? That is what is supposed to happen when a region of an economy does badly and another does well. They cant. They cant speak German. I am really pro Europe, christ, I live there, and have done for 16 years, but the EU is a strangle hold. Wasteful. Parasitic. And with all its pretence to a united Europe actually quite ineffectual in simple ways. Why does Germany have solar farms in Germany? Put them in Spain where the land is worth less and they would make 5 times as much power! Why not? Because they are a seperate nation to SPain. Its a joke. Then the fittings for GPL in cars. Each country has its own type. And this was a technology introduced AFTER the EU existed! Dear oh christ, they couldnt even sort that out! Then the expansion into southern ex soviet states. Why is the EU expansionist? What concern is it to them, these -stans? It is dictatorial, un elected, self serving, and a nice little club for those in the ruling elite, with their no income tax, thousands of euros a month perks!
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HobbyProggy wrote:
Well the votes gained by AFD were roughly 60% protest votes and not by commitment to the party.
Sorry but this is exactly the most dangerous aspect of all. If more people had done this "protest votes" and they had won a higher percentage... that would have brought no fun at all. If you want to do a protest vote against politicians, make your vote not valid / null or whatever it is called that move. But don't vote a right wing party without any concrete plan as "revenge" because that's one of the stupidest things that can be done.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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A_Griffin wrote:
The majority of Europeans (and even Brits, I'd wager, despite the recent Brexit vote) are behind the EU.
And exactly what evidence do you have for that claim? The majority of Europeans, I suspect, are in favour of the Common Market (which we voted for 40 years ago), but not the EU superstate (which none of us voted for).
Richard MacCutchan wrote:
suspect, are in favour of the Common Market (which we voted for 40 years ago), but not the EU superstate (which none of us voted for).
At least I do too.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Yes, I do know this. But Germany and the Germans do not live in isolation, and the right-wing there has been emboldened by what they see going on. But they are still a small minority - they have influence because the mainstream parties are locked in a hung parliament, but their numbers are still relatively few.
A_Griffin wrote:
but their numbers are still relatively few.
the worrying thing is not the actual numbers but the rising numbers. The right wing is not increasing influence due to the economical crisis from years ago. They are increasing influence due to the rape of womans and kids, the increase of fights and robberies and the increase of fear in the villages where the asilants are being "guests". And I am not racist, I am just saying this from what I see / hear from close people or see / hear in the news. I am myself inmigrant, came over 10 years ago to germany, but I have integrated myself. I have learned the rules of the country that gave me a job and an opportunity, which I used correctly. And now I have my life here. And although I understand why... I am afraid that if the things continue in that direction, even people like me who had made all right and has nothing to do with the current situation will have problems, because narrow minded right wingers won't make a different between one of them and one of us.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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A_Griffin wrote:
but their numbers are still relatively few.
the worrying thing is not the actual numbers but the rising numbers. The right wing is not increasing influence due to the economical crisis from years ago. They are increasing influence due to the rape of womans and kids, the increase of fights and robberies and the increase of fear in the villages where the asilants are being "guests". And I am not racist, I am just saying this from what I see / hear from close people or see / hear in the news. I am myself inmigrant, came over 10 years ago to germany, but I have integrated myself. I have learned the rules of the country that gave me a job and an opportunity, which I used correctly. And now I have my life here. And although I understand why... I am afraid that if the things continue in that direction, even people like me who had made all right and has nothing to do with the current situation will have problems, because narrow minded right wingers won't make a different between one of them and one of us.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
Oh for f***s sake. That is the Daily Mail (and their German equivalent) speaking, it has nothing to do with reality. Get a grip. If you're in Germany, maybe try reading up on German history, in the 1930's. It's the same old shit all over again being stirred up by the same shitty people. Or do you think the Jews deserved what they got as well?
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Yes, unfortunately the way the MSM works such headlines are indeed understandable and predictable... Most people, in any group, want to work. Terrorists are a (very small) minority. Benefits slackers are a (pretty small) minority. Both within indigenous populations and immigrant ones. The vast majority of people want to contribute and feel useful and earn money.
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A_Griffin wrote:
I don't think it should need to take centuries, really.
It will. Change doesnt happen quickly. We all need to speak one language first. Thats the way for true freedom of movement to work. How can a Greek get work in Germany? That is what is supposed to happen when a region of an economy does badly and another does well. They cant. They cant speak German. I am really pro Europe, christ, I live there, and have done for 16 years, but the EU is a strangle hold. Wasteful. Parasitic. And with all its pretence to a united Europe actually quite ineffectual in simple ways. Why does Germany have solar farms in Germany? Put them in Spain where the land is worth less and they would make 5 times as much power! Why not? Because they are a seperate nation to SPain. Its a joke. Then the fittings for GPL in cars. Each country has its own type. And this was a technology introduced AFTER the EU existed! Dear oh christ, they couldnt even sort that out! Then the expansion into southern ex soviet states. Why is the EU expansionist? What concern is it to them, these -stans? It is dictatorial, un elected, self serving, and a nice little club for those in the ruling elite, with their no income tax, thousands of euros a month perks!
As you say, the bad comes with the good, and part of the “bad” about democracy is inefficiency. Things don’t get dealt with quickly and efficiently because everyone wants their own say – wants their own “best interests” taken into account, to the point of putting them above any over-arching best interest. If the EU was a dictatorial as people make out, such issues as you describe would be dictated – it’s democracy that holds things up. HS2 is another classic example in the UK. Year after year of public inquiries, each adding billions to the cost. If it was China, for example, the thing wold have been built years ago for a fraction of today's cost. But, democracy. If you want it, you have to be patient with it... I spent a good many years living on the continent too, btw, in Italy. I returned there last year for a holiday, and yes, there were a lot of Africans about.. and from what I could hear, they all spoke Italian and English. Most people are quite capable of learning foreign languages, if the will is there.
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HobbyProggy wrote:
Well the votes gained by AFD were roughly 60% protest votes and not by commitment to the party.
Sorry but this is exactly the most dangerous aspect of all. If more people had done this "protest votes" and they had won a higher percentage... that would have brought no fun at all. If you want to do a protest vote against politicians, make your vote not valid / null or whatever it is called that move. But don't vote a right wing party without any concrete plan as "revenge" because that's one of the stupidest things that can be done.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
"Fun fact", most of the AFD were set by russians living in germany... Most rational protest voters hand their votes to small groups then, but yeah AFD was a winner this.
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93 seats can swing a vote. Anti AGW, anti EU, pro a practical Brexit that works for German business. That is how the AFD will vote. And good IMO.
But none of the other will vote against the EU, so the AFD with 93 seats agains the other ~610 ? Come on... And pro Brexit that will work good for Germany, why not? The Brits decided and now they have to do it and live with the consequences, sad but true. We'll have to see how it goes but i don't think that they will be able to do much. And as said before if they continue their attitude in the Bundestag ... they don't have enough candidates to fill the seats then.
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As you say, the bad comes with the good, and part of the “bad” about democracy is inefficiency. Things don’t get dealt with quickly and efficiently because everyone wants their own say – wants their own “best interests” taken into account, to the point of putting them above any over-arching best interest. If the EU was a dictatorial as people make out, such issues as you describe would be dictated – it’s democracy that holds things up. HS2 is another classic example in the UK. Year after year of public inquiries, each adding billions to the cost. If it was China, for example, the thing wold have been built years ago for a fraction of today's cost. But, democracy. If you want it, you have to be patient with it... I spent a good many years living on the continent too, btw, in Italy. I returned there last year for a holiday, and yes, there were a lot of Africans about.. and from what I could hear, they all spoke Italian and English. Most people are quite capable of learning foreign languages, if the will is there.
A_Griffin wrote:
If the EU was a dictatorial as people make out, such issues as you describe would be dictated – it’s democracy that holds things up.
Not in this case. You have a dictatorial system that just didnt notice that GPL was being introduced, and needed a standard. Why? Because the Eurocrats are interested only in their political careers, and the ideal of Europe. Not its practicality.
A_Griffin wrote:
Most people are quite capable of learning foreign languages, if the will is there
It shouldnt be learnt, it should be native. Europe needs a common language, English, it needs full unity, but it needs to do it slowly, through trade and travel. Not through heavy dictats from above. The EU was a response to WWII. Do you agree? It roots are in the ECSC (the tying together of french and german coal and steel industry in order to make war mutually destructive and to solve the question of the alsace-lorraine region . Agreed? So the EU is like the teacher, the wise man, who tells the selfish and unruly children in his care how to behave. Germany is the studious, does his homework on time, very neat, follows the rules, full of guilt for being the class bully in kindergarten. France thinks he is the best, constantly talking, joking, copying from the German. Spain is just stunned. Doesnt know what it is doing, how it got there, or where to go. The benelux are the intellectuals, small of stature, weak physically, they form a gang and adopt modernity and compromise as their defence. Britain is an interloper, an exchange student from a different country, who doesnt really understand the dynamic of the class, and just wants to get on. I will let yo fill in Italy. :) But do you see how the EU functions? The teacher says jump, and the student asks how high. That is why Britain is seriously incompatible with it as it is. Britain didnt start WWII, WWI, or the Franco-Prussian war. Wasnt part of the problem. And shouldnt be part of the solution. But it can and should be part of an EU that isnt a solution to WWII, WWI, and the Franco-Prussian war. We need to make the EU such a thing.
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But none of the other will vote against the EU, so the AFD with 93 seats agains the other ~610 ? Come on... And pro Brexit that will work good for Germany, why not? The Brits decided and now they have to do it and live with the consequences, sad but true. We'll have to see how it goes but i don't think that they will be able to do much. And as said before if they continue their attitude in the Bundestag ... they don't have enough candidates to fill the seats then.
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}HobbyProggy wrote:
And pro Brexit that will work good for Germany, why not
Why not? Because if the Eurocrats force Britain into a non free trade relationship the five existing German car planst in the UK are going to be inacessible to the parent companies in Germany. That is one example of why Germany must force the EU to adopt a friendly and not disciplinarian approach to Britain. And many want it. Germans have asked for a special case for the UK different to the Swiss and Norweigan model. Germans have called for Junckers to resign, for letting Britain walk. When votes on issues related to Brexit go through your parliament, those 93 votes can make a big difference. This isnt voting against the EU, but voting on policy.
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A_Griffin wrote:
If the EU was a dictatorial as people make out, such issues as you describe would be dictated – it’s democracy that holds things up.
Not in this case. You have a dictatorial system that just didnt notice that GPL was being introduced, and needed a standard. Why? Because the Eurocrats are interested only in their political careers, and the ideal of Europe. Not its practicality.
A_Griffin wrote:
Most people are quite capable of learning foreign languages, if the will is there
It shouldnt be learnt, it should be native. Europe needs a common language, English, it needs full unity, but it needs to do it slowly, through trade and travel. Not through heavy dictats from above. The EU was a response to WWII. Do you agree? It roots are in the ECSC (the tying together of french and german coal and steel industry in order to make war mutually destructive and to solve the question of the alsace-lorraine region . Agreed? So the EU is like the teacher, the wise man, who tells the selfish and unruly children in his care how to behave. Germany is the studious, does his homework on time, very neat, follows the rules, full of guilt for being the class bully in kindergarten. France thinks he is the best, constantly talking, joking, copying from the German. Spain is just stunned. Doesnt know what it is doing, how it got there, or where to go. The benelux are the intellectuals, small of stature, weak physically, they form a gang and adopt modernity and compromise as their defence. Britain is an interloper, an exchange student from a different country, who doesnt really understand the dynamic of the class, and just wants to get on. I will let yo fill in Italy. :) But do you see how the EU functions? The teacher says jump, and the student asks how high. That is why Britain is seriously incompatible with it as it is. Britain didnt start WWII, WWI, or the Franco-Prussian war. Wasnt part of the problem. And shouldnt be part of the solution. But it can and should be part of an EU that isnt a solution to WWII, WWI, and the Franco-Prussian war. We need to make the EU such a thing.
Well, all very amusing metaphors and all, and not without some truth, but not really that helpful. You’re maybe right that the UK is something of an “outsider” – we’ve always seen ourselves as separate from (and dare I say, better than) mainland Europe. It’s a shame we couldn’t clear the mist from our glasses and understand that we aren’t, really. But things don’t just happen by themselves. There’s nothing new in treaties and pacts between countries, and the EU is just another attempt to forge an alliance. And while Britain may not have directly started these wars you mention, historically we have not been shy about throwing our weight around Europe (and further afield) so really it’s a bit rich to stand so aloof now and say Europe’s nothing to do with us. Yes, the EU needs to be better. But it looks now like it’ll be growing and going forward without the UK. Which is our loss more than theirs, IMO.
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Well, all very amusing metaphors and all, and not without some truth, but not really that helpful. You’re maybe right that the UK is something of an “outsider” – we’ve always seen ourselves as separate from (and dare I say, better than) mainland Europe. It’s a shame we couldn’t clear the mist from our glasses and understand that we aren’t, really. But things don’t just happen by themselves. There’s nothing new in treaties and pacts between countries, and the EU is just another attempt to forge an alliance. And while Britain may not have directly started these wars you mention, historically we have not been shy about throwing our weight around Europe (and further afield) so really it’s a bit rich to stand so aloof now and say Europe’s nothing to do with us. Yes, the EU needs to be better. But it looks now like it’ll be growing and going forward without the UK. Which is our loss more than theirs, IMO.
A_Griffin wrote:
historically we have not been shy about throwing our weight around Europe
And what has that got to do with today? Nothing. The EU, the ECSC and WWII have everything to do with today.
A_Griffin wrote:
Which is our loss more than theirs
In the short term, yes. In the long term (after 10 years say) not so much.
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A_Griffin wrote:
historically we have not been shy about throwing our weight around Europe
And what has that got to do with today? Nothing. The EU, the ECSC and WWII have everything to do with today.
A_Griffin wrote:
Which is our loss more than theirs
In the short term, yes. In the long term (after 10 years say) not so much.
Well, it just highlights the British attitude: it’s OK to for us to be the big boy in town, but as soon as others start putting on weight we back off and say “Hey, we’re nothing to do with you!” Reminiscent of another bug-bear of mine, the great British rallying cry of Rule Britannia: “Britons never ever ever shall be slaves!” Yeah, right. Great. That’s OK then. (And yes, I do know the origin of the song. Changes nothing.) You cannot (should not) divorce history from the present. If people would only remember that, we might not be seeing so much ugliness around Europe today.