Sigh. The EU fucks up again
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As you say, the bad comes with the good, and part of the “bad” about democracy is inefficiency. Things don’t get dealt with quickly and efficiently because everyone wants their own say – wants their own “best interests” taken into account, to the point of putting them above any over-arching best interest. If the EU was a dictatorial as people make out, such issues as you describe would be dictated – it’s democracy that holds things up. HS2 is another classic example in the UK. Year after year of public inquiries, each adding billions to the cost. If it was China, for example, the thing wold have been built years ago for a fraction of today's cost. But, democracy. If you want it, you have to be patient with it... I spent a good many years living on the continent too, btw, in Italy. I returned there last year for a holiday, and yes, there were a lot of Africans about.. and from what I could hear, they all spoke Italian and English. Most people are quite capable of learning foreign languages, if the will is there.
A_Griffin wrote:
If the EU was a dictatorial as people make out, such issues as you describe would be dictated – it’s democracy that holds things up.
Not in this case. You have a dictatorial system that just didnt notice that GPL was being introduced, and needed a standard. Why? Because the Eurocrats are interested only in their political careers, and the ideal of Europe. Not its practicality.
A_Griffin wrote:
Most people are quite capable of learning foreign languages, if the will is there
It shouldnt be learnt, it should be native. Europe needs a common language, English, it needs full unity, but it needs to do it slowly, through trade and travel. Not through heavy dictats from above. The EU was a response to WWII. Do you agree? It roots are in the ECSC (the tying together of french and german coal and steel industry in order to make war mutually destructive and to solve the question of the alsace-lorraine region . Agreed? So the EU is like the teacher, the wise man, who tells the selfish and unruly children in his care how to behave. Germany is the studious, does his homework on time, very neat, follows the rules, full of guilt for being the class bully in kindergarten. France thinks he is the best, constantly talking, joking, copying from the German. Spain is just stunned. Doesnt know what it is doing, how it got there, or where to go. The benelux are the intellectuals, small of stature, weak physically, they form a gang and adopt modernity and compromise as their defence. Britain is an interloper, an exchange student from a different country, who doesnt really understand the dynamic of the class, and just wants to get on. I will let yo fill in Italy. :) But do you see how the EU functions? The teacher says jump, and the student asks how high. That is why Britain is seriously incompatible with it as it is. Britain didnt start WWII, WWI, or the Franco-Prussian war. Wasnt part of the problem. And shouldnt be part of the solution. But it can and should be part of an EU that isnt a solution to WWII, WWI, and the Franco-Prussian war. We need to make the EU such a thing.
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But none of the other will vote against the EU, so the AFD with 93 seats agains the other ~610 ? Come on... And pro Brexit that will work good for Germany, why not? The Brits decided and now they have to do it and live with the consequences, sad but true. We'll have to see how it goes but i don't think that they will be able to do much. And as said before if they continue their attitude in the Bundestag ... they don't have enough candidates to fill the seats then.
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}HobbyProggy wrote:
And pro Brexit that will work good for Germany, why not
Why not? Because if the Eurocrats force Britain into a non free trade relationship the five existing German car planst in the UK are going to be inacessible to the parent companies in Germany. That is one example of why Germany must force the EU to adopt a friendly and not disciplinarian approach to Britain. And many want it. Germans have asked for a special case for the UK different to the Swiss and Norweigan model. Germans have called for Junckers to resign, for letting Britain walk. When votes on issues related to Brexit go through your parliament, those 93 votes can make a big difference. This isnt voting against the EU, but voting on policy.
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A_Griffin wrote:
If the EU was a dictatorial as people make out, such issues as you describe would be dictated – it’s democracy that holds things up.
Not in this case. You have a dictatorial system that just didnt notice that GPL was being introduced, and needed a standard. Why? Because the Eurocrats are interested only in their political careers, and the ideal of Europe. Not its practicality.
A_Griffin wrote:
Most people are quite capable of learning foreign languages, if the will is there
It shouldnt be learnt, it should be native. Europe needs a common language, English, it needs full unity, but it needs to do it slowly, through trade and travel. Not through heavy dictats from above. The EU was a response to WWII. Do you agree? It roots are in the ECSC (the tying together of french and german coal and steel industry in order to make war mutually destructive and to solve the question of the alsace-lorraine region . Agreed? So the EU is like the teacher, the wise man, who tells the selfish and unruly children in his care how to behave. Germany is the studious, does his homework on time, very neat, follows the rules, full of guilt for being the class bully in kindergarten. France thinks he is the best, constantly talking, joking, copying from the German. Spain is just stunned. Doesnt know what it is doing, how it got there, or where to go. The benelux are the intellectuals, small of stature, weak physically, they form a gang and adopt modernity and compromise as their defence. Britain is an interloper, an exchange student from a different country, who doesnt really understand the dynamic of the class, and just wants to get on. I will let yo fill in Italy. :) But do you see how the EU functions? The teacher says jump, and the student asks how high. That is why Britain is seriously incompatible with it as it is. Britain didnt start WWII, WWI, or the Franco-Prussian war. Wasnt part of the problem. And shouldnt be part of the solution. But it can and should be part of an EU that isnt a solution to WWII, WWI, and the Franco-Prussian war. We need to make the EU such a thing.
Well, all very amusing metaphors and all, and not without some truth, but not really that helpful. You’re maybe right that the UK is something of an “outsider” – we’ve always seen ourselves as separate from (and dare I say, better than) mainland Europe. It’s a shame we couldn’t clear the mist from our glasses and understand that we aren’t, really. But things don’t just happen by themselves. There’s nothing new in treaties and pacts between countries, and the EU is just another attempt to forge an alliance. And while Britain may not have directly started these wars you mention, historically we have not been shy about throwing our weight around Europe (and further afield) so really it’s a bit rich to stand so aloof now and say Europe’s nothing to do with us. Yes, the EU needs to be better. But it looks now like it’ll be growing and going forward without the UK. Which is our loss more than theirs, IMO.
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Well, all very amusing metaphors and all, and not without some truth, but not really that helpful. You’re maybe right that the UK is something of an “outsider” – we’ve always seen ourselves as separate from (and dare I say, better than) mainland Europe. It’s a shame we couldn’t clear the mist from our glasses and understand that we aren’t, really. But things don’t just happen by themselves. There’s nothing new in treaties and pacts between countries, and the EU is just another attempt to forge an alliance. And while Britain may not have directly started these wars you mention, historically we have not been shy about throwing our weight around Europe (and further afield) so really it’s a bit rich to stand so aloof now and say Europe’s nothing to do with us. Yes, the EU needs to be better. But it looks now like it’ll be growing and going forward without the UK. Which is our loss more than theirs, IMO.
A_Griffin wrote:
historically we have not been shy about throwing our weight around Europe
And what has that got to do with today? Nothing. The EU, the ECSC and WWII have everything to do with today.
A_Griffin wrote:
Which is our loss more than theirs
In the short term, yes. In the long term (after 10 years say) not so much.
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A_Griffin wrote:
historically we have not been shy about throwing our weight around Europe
And what has that got to do with today? Nothing. The EU, the ECSC and WWII have everything to do with today.
A_Griffin wrote:
Which is our loss more than theirs
In the short term, yes. In the long term (after 10 years say) not so much.
Well, it just highlights the British attitude: it’s OK to for us to be the big boy in town, but as soon as others start putting on weight we back off and say “Hey, we’re nothing to do with you!” Reminiscent of another bug-bear of mine, the great British rallying cry of Rule Britannia: “Britons never ever ever shall be slaves!” Yeah, right. Great. That’s OK then. (And yes, I do know the origin of the song. Changes nothing.) You cannot (should not) divorce history from the present. If people would only remember that, we might not be seeing so much ugliness around Europe today.
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Well, it just highlights the British attitude: it’s OK to for us to be the big boy in town, but as soon as others start putting on weight we back off and say “Hey, we’re nothing to do with you!” Reminiscent of another bug-bear of mine, the great British rallying cry of Rule Britannia: “Britons never ever ever shall be slaves!” Yeah, right. Great. That’s OK then. (And yes, I do know the origin of the song. Changes nothing.) You cannot (should not) divorce history from the present. If people would only remember that, we might not be seeing so much ugliness around Europe today.
A_Griffin wrote:
it’s OK to for us to be the big boy in town, but as soon as others start putting on weight we back off and say “Hey, we’re nothing to do with you!”
What? Big boy in town? How does that in any way relate to our relationship with the EU? Just what on earth do you have going on in your head? I cant even begin to understand the relevance of your reply.
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A_Griffin wrote:
it’s OK to for us to be the big boy in town, but as soon as others start putting on weight we back off and say “Hey, we’re nothing to do with you!”
What? Big boy in town? How does that in any way relate to our relationship with the EU? Just what on earth do you have going on in your head? I cant even begin to understand the relevance of your reply.
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I'm just saying that historically we've had no problems throwing our weight around Europe, but now the boot's on the other foot we don't like it so much, and start moaning about independence and autonomy.
That is a very simplistic view. You can take that view, I am sure many British people who voted Brexit do too. But the discussion started out about how the EUs heavy handedness in 'disciplining' its naughty students (such as fining Hungary for not taking its allotted immigrants), as part of its 'control of nationalism, national identity, and the tensions this has produced over the centuries' is actually fostering those tensions. It is self destructive, the EU.
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That is a very simplistic view. You can take that view, I am sure many British people who voted Brexit do too. But the discussion started out about how the EUs heavy handedness in 'disciplining' its naughty students (such as fining Hungary for not taking its allotted immigrants), as part of its 'control of nationalism, national identity, and the tensions this has produced over the centuries' is actually fostering those tensions. It is self destructive, the EU.
Yes, many Brexiters do, which is what I was bitching about! Countries such as Hungary you mentioned wanted to be part of the EU and reap the benefits of it – and they have received no small amount of money from it – need also to take the good with the bad, like everyone else. Having said that, I don’t think the EU stance that those countries on the EU border should shoulder the burden of dealing with immigration – if the EU is “all in it together” then every country should shoulder the burden equally (or proportionately so, anyway, relative to their size.) The EU has been heavy-handed about this, I agree. It is far from perfect, but overall most countries gain from it on balance, which is why I think it will survive, and why there is still broad support for it, despite the vocal opposition.
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Yes, many Brexiters do, which is what I was bitching about! Countries such as Hungary you mentioned wanted to be part of the EU and reap the benefits of it – and they have received no small amount of money from it – need also to take the good with the bad, like everyone else. Having said that, I don’t think the EU stance that those countries on the EU border should shoulder the burden of dealing with immigration – if the EU is “all in it together” then every country should shoulder the burden equally (or proportionately so, anyway, relative to their size.) The EU has been heavy-handed about this, I agree. It is far from perfect, but overall most countries gain from it on balance, which is why I think it will survive, and why there is still broad support for it, despite the vocal opposition.
DO you know about the war reparations Germany had to make after WWI? The EU, with is money flow, is about punishing Germany for WWII by making them the main contributor. Here's how much each EU nation puts in and takes out of the EU budget[^] Those with the x higher than the green bar are net contributors. Those whose x is lower than the green bar are net receivers. WTF is Luxembourg doing being a net receiver!!!!!!!!! I lived there. It is a very VERY rich country. Very low tax, lots of money to spend. Immaculate roads, fully lit motorways, high wages... Junckers was Luxembourgs president. What chance to you think he will accept that being reversed? When the UK walks the EU will lose its funding from the UK. This will put a MASSIVE hole in their budget. That is why the EU is putting the divorce bill first. It is shitting itself.
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HobbyProggy wrote:
And pro Brexit that will work good for Germany, why not
Why not? Because if the Eurocrats force Britain into a non free trade relationship the five existing German car planst in the UK are going to be inacessible to the parent companies in Germany. That is one example of why Germany must force the EU to adopt a friendly and not disciplinarian approach to Britain. And many want it. Germans have asked for a special case for the UK different to the Swiss and Norweigan model. Germans have called for Junckers to resign, for letting Britain walk. When votes on issues related to Brexit go through your parliament, those 93 votes can make a big difference. This isnt voting against the EU, but voting on policy.
And on the other hand all of your brokers and finance sector employees will go to frankfurt. The question is what hurts more. We will see how the brexit will work out, but i guess a lot will change. But being week on that topic and letting the UK dictate rules will not work. Maybe some lose their job, who knows.
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And on the other hand all of your brokers and finance sector employees will go to frankfurt. The question is what hurts more. We will see how the brexit will work out, but i guess a lot will change. But being week on that topic and letting the UK dictate rules will not work. Maybe some lose their job, who knows.
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}Home of the ECB, makes sense. Well, you can have fun with them. They will ruin your economy next.
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DO you know about the war reparations Germany had to make after WWI? The EU, with is money flow, is about punishing Germany for WWII by making them the main contributor. Here's how much each EU nation puts in and takes out of the EU budget[^] Those with the x higher than the green bar are net contributors. Those whose x is lower than the green bar are net receivers. WTF is Luxembourg doing being a net receiver!!!!!!!!! I lived there. It is a very VERY rich country. Very low tax, lots of money to spend. Immaculate roads, fully lit motorways, high wages... Junckers was Luxembourgs president. What chance to you think he will accept that being reversed? When the UK walks the EU will lose its funding from the UK. This will put a MASSIVE hole in their budget. That is why the EU is putting the divorce bill first. It is shitting itself.
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It is freaking 10 billion a year. Get real. The ECB prints 5 times that much every week.
No, it isnt printing, it is QEing. :) If the 10 billion were nothing then why is the EU insisting on a payment? Perhaps you should get real. This is, after all, the reality.
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Home of the ECB, makes sense. Well, you can have fun with them. They will ruin your economy next.
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The dont ruin stock markets, they gamble with other peoples money, pay themselves massive bonuses for doing so, then get the tax payer to bail them out when the shit hits the fan. You are welcome to them. Britain can focus on being a manufacturing country producing some of the best engineered goods in the world.
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No, it isnt printing, it is QEing. :) If the 10 billion were nothing then why is the EU insisting on a payment? Perhaps you should get real. This is, after all, the reality.
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The EU is not interested in a deal. They will put a realistic figure of 100 billion. You will walk away. It's a fight against the global yokelism. They cannot punish the great orange yokel, but it has to start somewhere.
Termi Nater wrote:
You will walk away
... German business will shit itself and force the EU to do a deal.