Sigh. The EU fucks up again
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A_Griffin wrote:
historically we have not been shy about throwing our weight around Europe
And what has that got to do with today? Nothing. The EU, the ECSC and WWII have everything to do with today.
A_Griffin wrote:
Which is our loss more than theirs
In the short term, yes. In the long term (after 10 years say) not so much.
Well, it just highlights the British attitude: it’s OK to for us to be the big boy in town, but as soon as others start putting on weight we back off and say “Hey, we’re nothing to do with you!” Reminiscent of another bug-bear of mine, the great British rallying cry of Rule Britannia: “Britons never ever ever shall be slaves!” Yeah, right. Great. That’s OK then. (And yes, I do know the origin of the song. Changes nothing.) You cannot (should not) divorce history from the present. If people would only remember that, we might not be seeing so much ugliness around Europe today.
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Well, it just highlights the British attitude: it’s OK to for us to be the big boy in town, but as soon as others start putting on weight we back off and say “Hey, we’re nothing to do with you!” Reminiscent of another bug-bear of mine, the great British rallying cry of Rule Britannia: “Britons never ever ever shall be slaves!” Yeah, right. Great. That’s OK then. (And yes, I do know the origin of the song. Changes nothing.) You cannot (should not) divorce history from the present. If people would only remember that, we might not be seeing so much ugliness around Europe today.
A_Griffin wrote:
it’s OK to for us to be the big boy in town, but as soon as others start putting on weight we back off and say “Hey, we’re nothing to do with you!”
What? Big boy in town? How does that in any way relate to our relationship with the EU? Just what on earth do you have going on in your head? I cant even begin to understand the relevance of your reply.
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A_Griffin wrote:
it’s OK to for us to be the big boy in town, but as soon as others start putting on weight we back off and say “Hey, we’re nothing to do with you!”
What? Big boy in town? How does that in any way relate to our relationship with the EU? Just what on earth do you have going on in your head? I cant even begin to understand the relevance of your reply.
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I'm just saying that historically we've had no problems throwing our weight around Europe, but now the boot's on the other foot we don't like it so much, and start moaning about independence and autonomy.
That is a very simplistic view. You can take that view, I am sure many British people who voted Brexit do too. But the discussion started out about how the EUs heavy handedness in 'disciplining' its naughty students (such as fining Hungary for not taking its allotted immigrants), as part of its 'control of nationalism, national identity, and the tensions this has produced over the centuries' is actually fostering those tensions. It is self destructive, the EU.
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That is a very simplistic view. You can take that view, I am sure many British people who voted Brexit do too. But the discussion started out about how the EUs heavy handedness in 'disciplining' its naughty students (such as fining Hungary for not taking its allotted immigrants), as part of its 'control of nationalism, national identity, and the tensions this has produced over the centuries' is actually fostering those tensions. It is self destructive, the EU.
Yes, many Brexiters do, which is what I was bitching about! Countries such as Hungary you mentioned wanted to be part of the EU and reap the benefits of it – and they have received no small amount of money from it – need also to take the good with the bad, like everyone else. Having said that, I don’t think the EU stance that those countries on the EU border should shoulder the burden of dealing with immigration – if the EU is “all in it together” then every country should shoulder the burden equally (or proportionately so, anyway, relative to their size.) The EU has been heavy-handed about this, I agree. It is far from perfect, but overall most countries gain from it on balance, which is why I think it will survive, and why there is still broad support for it, despite the vocal opposition.
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Yes, many Brexiters do, which is what I was bitching about! Countries such as Hungary you mentioned wanted to be part of the EU and reap the benefits of it – and they have received no small amount of money from it – need also to take the good with the bad, like everyone else. Having said that, I don’t think the EU stance that those countries on the EU border should shoulder the burden of dealing with immigration – if the EU is “all in it together” then every country should shoulder the burden equally (or proportionately so, anyway, relative to their size.) The EU has been heavy-handed about this, I agree. It is far from perfect, but overall most countries gain from it on balance, which is why I think it will survive, and why there is still broad support for it, despite the vocal opposition.
DO you know about the war reparations Germany had to make after WWI? The EU, with is money flow, is about punishing Germany for WWII by making them the main contributor. Here's how much each EU nation puts in and takes out of the EU budget[^] Those with the x higher than the green bar are net contributors. Those whose x is lower than the green bar are net receivers. WTF is Luxembourg doing being a net receiver!!!!!!!!! I lived there. It is a very VERY rich country. Very low tax, lots of money to spend. Immaculate roads, fully lit motorways, high wages... Junckers was Luxembourgs president. What chance to you think he will accept that being reversed? When the UK walks the EU will lose its funding from the UK. This will put a MASSIVE hole in their budget. That is why the EU is putting the divorce bill first. It is shitting itself.
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HobbyProggy wrote:
And pro Brexit that will work good for Germany, why not
Why not? Because if the Eurocrats force Britain into a non free trade relationship the five existing German car planst in the UK are going to be inacessible to the parent companies in Germany. That is one example of why Germany must force the EU to adopt a friendly and not disciplinarian approach to Britain. And many want it. Germans have asked for a special case for the UK different to the Swiss and Norweigan model. Germans have called for Junckers to resign, for letting Britain walk. When votes on issues related to Brexit go through your parliament, those 93 votes can make a big difference. This isnt voting against the EU, but voting on policy.
And on the other hand all of your brokers and finance sector employees will go to frankfurt. The question is what hurts more. We will see how the brexit will work out, but i guess a lot will change. But being week on that topic and letting the UK dictate rules will not work. Maybe some lose their job, who knows.
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And on the other hand all of your brokers and finance sector employees will go to frankfurt. The question is what hurts more. We will see how the brexit will work out, but i guess a lot will change. But being week on that topic and letting the UK dictate rules will not work. Maybe some lose their job, who knows.
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}Home of the ECB, makes sense. Well, you can have fun with them. They will ruin your economy next.
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DO you know about the war reparations Germany had to make after WWI? The EU, with is money flow, is about punishing Germany for WWII by making them the main contributor. Here's how much each EU nation puts in and takes out of the EU budget[^] Those with the x higher than the green bar are net contributors. Those whose x is lower than the green bar are net receivers. WTF is Luxembourg doing being a net receiver!!!!!!!!! I lived there. It is a very VERY rich country. Very low tax, lots of money to spend. Immaculate roads, fully lit motorways, high wages... Junckers was Luxembourgs president. What chance to you think he will accept that being reversed? When the UK walks the EU will lose its funding from the UK. This will put a MASSIVE hole in their budget. That is why the EU is putting the divorce bill first. It is shitting itself.
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It is freaking 10 billion a year. Get real. The ECB prints 5 times that much every week.
No, it isnt printing, it is QEing. :) If the 10 billion were nothing then why is the EU insisting on a payment? Perhaps you should get real. This is, after all, the reality.
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Home of the ECB, makes sense. Well, you can have fun with them. They will ruin your economy next.
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The dont ruin stock markets, they gamble with other peoples money, pay themselves massive bonuses for doing so, then get the tax payer to bail them out when the shit hits the fan. You are welcome to them. Britain can focus on being a manufacturing country producing some of the best engineered goods in the world.
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No, it isnt printing, it is QEing. :) If the 10 billion were nothing then why is the EU insisting on a payment? Perhaps you should get real. This is, after all, the reality.
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The EU is not interested in a deal. They will put a realistic figure of 100 billion. You will walk away. It's a fight against the global yokelism. They cannot punish the great orange yokel, but it has to start somewhere.
Termi Nater wrote:
You will walk away
... German business will shit itself and force the EU to do a deal.
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Termi Nater wrote:
You will walk away
... German business will shit itself and force the EU to do a deal.
Quote:
... German business will sh*t itself and force the EU to do a deal.
I'm sure all the rich people in Britain will stop buying Mercedes and BMW and switch to Toyotas and Hondas because of .... what? Your pound was devalued 15% in the last year alone. How much does that make in tariffs and how much did german sales fall so far?
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The dont ruin stock markets, they gamble with other peoples money, pay themselves massive bonuses for doing so, then get the tax payer to bail them out when the shit hits the fan. You are welcome to them. Britain can focus on being a manufacturing country producing some of the best engineered goods in the world.
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The dont ruin stock markets, they gamble with other peoples money, pay themselves massive bonuses for doing so, then get the tax payer to bail them out when the shit hits the fan. You are welcome to them. Britain can focus on being a manufacturing country producing some of the best engineered goods in the world.
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Quote:
... German business will sh*t itself and force the EU to do a deal.
I'm sure all the rich people in Britain will stop buying Mercedes and BMW and switch to Toyotas and Hondas because of .... what? Your pound was devalued 15% in the last year alone. How much does that make in tariffs and how much did german sales fall so far?
It is more than that: German businesses in UK plead for Britain to stay in EU[^] They are already shitting themselves. How about the fiver German car manufacturers with factories in the UK? How are they going to relocate and how much will it cost them? It is going to be painful for Germany, and at a time when it will now be the only big payer into the pot. Believe me, a walk away with no deal is going to hurt the EU a lot, and Germany in particular. That is why we need a business based pragmatic approach to the negotiations.