Robots, the new slavery?
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For a start you seem to assume a robot is sentient, good luck with that one, if it is not sentient then it has no rights and no requirement for wages/recompense. Compensating someone (Govt) for using a robot to do the work is not going to happen, it isn't today, why would you think it will in the future. A completely different economic model is going to have to be invented to achieve your vision. And if you think the corporates are going to abdicate the money management to a govt your nuts. A production tax may be one way to go!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity RAH
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
you seem to assume a robot is sentient, good luck with that one
You seem to much, I dont.
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
it has no rights and no requirement for wages
Of course not, but it has to be treated as if it does in order to generate revenue the govt will need to pay the ex-manual labourers unemployment money, at a decent rate.
Mycroft Holmes wrote:
why would you think it will in the future
Legislation. And why not? Is this not a better world? No more manual, dull labour. Those people get to sit around, play golf, spend the day in the pub. Let the robots do their work. Those who enjoy their work, the artists, the professionals, will quite happily continue working. And we will all live like plantation owners of the past, in luxury, because at the bottom of society will be an army of metal slaves, working for us.
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A robot is just a machine. It might look clever, but underneath it is just a machine, and it is the engineers who built it that are the geniuses, just ad Babbage was, and the inventor of the spinning jenny. So, since mechanisation has helped us immensely, giving us an incredible lifestyle today, why not continue the trend? And, what ill has befallen us because of past mechanisation that makes you think future mechanisation will?
Many, many uneducated and/or less skilled people are losing and will continue to lose their jobs to robots and automated mechanization - that is a fact. This will put more of a strain on the welfare system in my country, and perhaps, the world's welfare system (if they have one). Now you introduce AI, and that adds an infinite set of variables to the mix. As AI become more powerful, then what would happen if AI went awry? Speculation on my part, yes, but still a valid scenario outcome. There are and will continue to be benefits to this robot stuff, but I think the negative will outweigh the good. My opinion.
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Many, many uneducated and/or less skilled people are losing and will continue to lose their jobs to robots and automated mechanization - that is a fact. This will put more of a strain on the welfare system in my country, and perhaps, the world's welfare system (if they have one). Now you introduce AI, and that adds an infinite set of variables to the mix. As AI become more powerful, then what would happen if AI went awry? Speculation on my part, yes, but still a valid scenario outcome. There are and will continue to be benefits to this robot stuff, but I think the negative will outweigh the good. My opinion.
One interesting effect will be the re-onshoring of labour in the developed first world countries, ie those who are going to robotise first. Anyway, yes, AI and all that, the robots attack, terminator, I Robot and so on. Lots of sci-fi there, not sure if there is much basis in reality for it.
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Munchies_Matt wrote:
So we all effectively live like a plantation owner of the past, off the backs of the labour of slaves, just metal in this case, and free of the moral implications.
The past ?
«While I complain of being able to see only a shadow of the past, I may be insensitive to reality as it is now, since I'm not at a stage of development where I'm capable of seeing it.» Claude Levi-Strauss (Tristes Tropiques, 1955)
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Saw this on TV recently on a program about robots: [^] I can envision a future where robots do almost all the manual work, and crucially, they are payed a wage and taxed at 100% on it. ie, the company employing them pays, at a reduced rate, the commensurate wage a person would have received, direct to the government as tax. Of course this payment has to reflect the costs of the robot to the company but given the robot works a 3 shift day its productivity is much higher than a human's, so this revenue is substantial. This revenue is then paid out to the public at a fixed amount per month per person, regardless of whether they work or not. Products produced by robots are much cheaper, allowing for greater consumption. Many people would therefore lead a life of leisure, maintained by the state. Others who either enjoy work, want to earn more money, or cant be replaced by robots, such as professionals, ie us lot, doctors, lawyers etc continue as before, but perhaps with reduced hours. An interesting side effect is that cheap labour in the third world, which increasingly becomes less cheap as more and more companies try to exploit it, is undercut, and the labour floods back to the advanced countries that can best implement robotics. So we all effectively live like a plantation owner of the past, off the backs of the labour of slaves, just metal in this case, and free of the moral implications. Not a bad lifestyle. When do we start! :)
I see "money and goods" being shuffled around; I didn't see anyone "buying" anything. The take is that "robots" can produce goods out of nothing; and produce revenue from goods that nobody buys; and said revenue is then distributed to the masses; to buy the goods produced from nothing. Sounds like this is where Bitcoin comes in: fake money for fake goods. Moore's law (because it is starting to fail) predicts a depression / recession: what to do with all the "labor" when the next "IPhone" isn't "better" than the previous and no one wants to upgrade.
"(I) am amazed to see myself here rather than there ... now rather than then". ― Blaise Pascal
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I see "money and goods" being shuffled around; I didn't see anyone "buying" anything. The take is that "robots" can produce goods out of nothing; and produce revenue from goods that nobody buys; and said revenue is then distributed to the masses; to buy the goods produced from nothing. Sounds like this is where Bitcoin comes in: fake money for fake goods. Moore's law (because it is starting to fail) predicts a depression / recession: what to do with all the "labor" when the next "IPhone" isn't "better" than the previous and no one wants to upgrade.
"(I) am amazed to see myself here rather than there ... now rather than then". ― Blaise Pascal
Gerry Schmitz wrote:
The take is that "robots" can produce goods out of nothing; and produce revenue from goods that nobody buys;
No, they would be goods produced today, that people buy. Just produced by robots.
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Gerry Schmitz wrote:
The take is that "robots" can produce goods out of nothing; and produce revenue from goods that nobody buys;
No, they would be goods produced today, that people buy. Just produced by robots.
So, your robots will be giving "credit" to people who don't work? So they can buy goods with money they don't have? Because the won't get their "distribution" until the goods are sold? Or are you planning on running a deficit? How does "that" get paid off? You first need expropriate all the world's resources; using robots...
"(I) am amazed to see myself here rather than there ... now rather than then". ― Blaise Pascal
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Munchies_Matt wrote:
in order to halt a revoloution by the staving unemployed masses they will have to be paid
Suddenly you sound like a communist. The unemployed masses may learn a new trade, and try to become productive members again. Non-productive members are not required on the planet.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
No, a realist. If you keep the peasants fed and watered they are a content bunch.
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So, your robots will be giving "credit" to people who don't work? So they can buy goods with money they don't have? Because the won't get their "distribution" until the goods are sold? Or are you planning on running a deficit? How does "that" get paid off? You first need expropriate all the world's resources; using robots...
"(I) am amazed to see myself here rather than there ... now rather than then". ― Blaise Pascal
Yes, the robots will generate tax revenue which will be paid as unemployment benefit to those whose jobs have been replaced by the robots. If 8 hours of human labour is worth 100 $ to a firm, a robot can make 300 $ a day, so if the govt takes 100 $ off the firm, it still makes 200$ worth off its back ( a robot works 24 hours a day). The govt gives this money to the worker. He is happy, the firm makes more money, and goods are cheaper. Exports increase, labour onshores, because robots are cheaper than say Vietnamese, the trade deficit shrinks, so does govt debt. And all dull, manual work is done by machines.
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No, a realist. If you keep the peasants fed and watered they are a content bunch.
Munchies_Matt wrote:
No, a realist. If you keep the peasants fed and watered they are a content bunch.
Again, I already mentioned that Maslow disagrees; the pyramid is also nothing new, and I'm not going to discuss its validity. Just pointing out that food and drinks is not enough. ..if they were, America would have lots of content people. No one would complain about not having internet, when given bread and water. And did you seriously expect to be fed? Why? We already have cuter pets :) If you're superfluous, you can try to fend for yourself, as always was the case in history.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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Yes, the robots will generate tax revenue which will be paid as unemployment benefit to those whose jobs have been replaced by the robots. If 8 hours of human labour is worth 100 $ to a firm, a robot can make 300 $ a day, so if the govt takes 100 $ off the firm, it still makes 200$ worth off its back ( a robot works 24 hours a day). The govt gives this money to the worker. He is happy, the firm makes more money, and goods are cheaper. Exports increase, labour onshores, because robots are cheaper than say Vietnamese, the trade deficit shrinks, so does govt debt. And all dull, manual work is done by machines.
You're still handing out "free" money because you haven't sold the goods to earn the "revenue" you're giving to the "humans". Marx, Mao, perpetual motion machines...
"(I) am amazed to see myself here rather than there ... now rather than then". ― Blaise Pascal
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You're still handing out "free" money because you haven't sold the goods to earn the "revenue" you're giving to the "humans". Marx, Mao, perpetual motion machines...
"(I) am amazed to see myself here rather than there ... now rather than then". ― Blaise Pascal
Gerry Schmitz wrote:
because you haven't sold the goods to earn the "revenue"
One assumes of course that there is no labour, human or machine, involved, today, in producing goods that cant be sold.
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Munchies_Matt wrote:
No, a realist. If you keep the peasants fed and watered they are a content bunch.
Again, I already mentioned that Maslow disagrees; the pyramid is also nothing new, and I'm not going to discuss its validity. Just pointing out that food and drinks is not enough. ..if they were, America would have lots of content people. No one would complain about not having internet, when given bread and water. And did you seriously expect to be fed? Why? We already have cuter pets :) If you're superfluous, you can try to fend for yourself, as always was the case in history.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
food and drinks is not enough.
Isnt it? It is for me. The four 'f's. Food, family, friends, and fucking. Thats all a peasant needs (and me too. :) )
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Saw this on TV recently on a program about robots: [^] I can envision a future where robots do almost all the manual work, and crucially, they are payed a wage and taxed at 100% on it. ie, the company employing them pays, at a reduced rate, the commensurate wage a person would have received, direct to the government as tax. Of course this payment has to reflect the costs of the robot to the company but given the robot works a 3 shift day its productivity is much higher than a human's, so this revenue is substantial. This revenue is then paid out to the public at a fixed amount per month per person, regardless of whether they work or not. Products produced by robots are much cheaper, allowing for greater consumption. Many people would therefore lead a life of leisure, maintained by the state. Others who either enjoy work, want to earn more money, or cant be replaced by robots, such as professionals, ie us lot, doctors, lawyers etc continue as before, but perhaps with reduced hours. An interesting side effect is that cheap labour in the third world, which increasingly becomes less cheap as more and more companies try to exploit it, is undercut, and the labour floods back to the advanced countries that can best implement robotics. So we all effectively live like a plantation owner of the past, off the backs of the labour of slaves, just metal in this case, and free of the moral implications. Not a bad lifestyle. When do we start! :)
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I dont think a machine can ever become sentient.
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Saw this on TV recently on a program about robots: [^] I can envision a future where robots do almost all the manual work, and crucially, they are payed a wage and taxed at 100% on it. ie, the company employing them pays, at a reduced rate, the commensurate wage a person would have received, direct to the government as tax. Of course this payment has to reflect the costs of the robot to the company but given the robot works a 3 shift day its productivity is much higher than a human's, so this revenue is substantial. This revenue is then paid out to the public at a fixed amount per month per person, regardless of whether they work or not. Products produced by robots are much cheaper, allowing for greater consumption. Many people would therefore lead a life of leisure, maintained by the state. Others who either enjoy work, want to earn more money, or cant be replaced by robots, such as professionals, ie us lot, doctors, lawyers etc continue as before, but perhaps with reduced hours. An interesting side effect is that cheap labour in the third world, which increasingly becomes less cheap as more and more companies try to exploit it, is undercut, and the labour floods back to the advanced countries that can best implement robotics. So we all effectively live like a plantation owner of the past, off the backs of the labour of slaves, just metal in this case, and free of the moral implications. Not a bad lifestyle. When do we start! :)
So? Then what? We can all live, behave, and look-like Jabba the Hutt, with our drink serving droids providing for our every need? Guess we'll also be entertained like Jabba - watching other being tortured? Doesn't sound too attractive to me...
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So? Then what? We can all live, behave, and look-like Jabba the Hutt, with our drink serving droids providing for our every need? Guess we'll also be entertained like Jabba - watching other being tortured? Doesn't sound too attractive to me...
Member 8102006 wrote:
We can all live, behave, and look-like Jabba the Hutt, with our drink serving droids providing for our every need?
If you like. Or you can go for walks, play tennis, golf. Go sailing. Your choice. But you will have the time to do whatever you like.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote:
food and drinks is not enough.
Isnt it? It is for me. The four 'f's. Food, family, friends, and fucking. Thats all a peasant needs (and me too. :) )
Munchies_Matt wrote:
It is for me.
Psychology disagrees; lock up a person with family and friends, give them food. Lets see how long you want to remain there in that Utopia :)
Munchies_Matt wrote:
Thats all a peasant needs
"Did the Lord say that machines ought to take the place of the living; then what is the substitute for bread and beans? Do engines get rewarded, for their steam?" Yes, the owner of the steam-engine will have the engine pay taxes, so you can laze about and do nothing. And we'll all live happily ever after :rolleyes:
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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Munchies_Matt wrote:
It is for me.
Psychology disagrees; lock up a person with family and friends, give them food. Lets see how long you want to remain there in that Utopia :)
Munchies_Matt wrote:
Thats all a peasant needs
"Did the Lord say that machines ought to take the place of the living; then what is the substitute for bread and beans? Do engines get rewarded, for their steam?" Yes, the owner of the steam-engine will have the engine pay taxes, so you can laze about and do nothing. And we'll all live happily ever after :rolleyes:
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Yes, the owner of the steam-engine will have the engine pay taxes, so you can laze about and do nothing. And we'll all live happily ever after
Precisely.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote:
Yes, the owner of the steam-engine will have the engine pay taxes, so you can laze about and do nothing. And we'll all live happily ever after
Precisely.