Debate : Standard v Phillips (Allen, Torx)
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W∴ Balboos wrote:
I think "billions $$$ spent" would be more like it.
Hmmm....I've created an industry. :rolleyes: Seriously though, I can agree with what you are saying. That's why The World must agree upon one standard immediately and outlaw all other types. :laugh:
raddevus wrote:
That's why The World must agree upon one standard immediately and outlaw all other types.
Step One: "Reeducate those good-for-nothing lefties" who'd want to screw around with the direction in which we turn the screws.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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You have way to much time on your hands.
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raddevus wrote:
That's why The World must agree upon one standard immediately and outlaw all other types.
Step One: "Reeducate those good-for-nothing lefties" who'd want to screw around with the direction in which we turn the screws.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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W∴ Balboos wrote:
who'd want to screw around with the direction in which we turn the screws.
Can you imagine...
Ridiculous!
Lefty tighty, righty loosey
:rolleyes: It's righty tighty for a reason! :laugh:
Righty Tighty - Lefty Lucy ? I always thought that was referring which direction in bed to face when deciding on which new girlfriend you'll . . .
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Here's the question up for debate:
Debate
Why would any modern product use a standard (aka flat head) screw, which requires a standard (flat head) screw driver?
Standard screws are far more difficult to use in a modern era where we have power screw drivers which spin at high RPMs. If you've ever tried this you know that a standard (or slotted screw) will quickly get off balance with each rotation which really creates a challenge. The very least that should be substituted would be the Phillips (+) type. It's much more balanced. I can see using a allen type or Torx or whatever but I just can't understand why slotted would still be used. Why are slotted screws still being produced? In my thinking they should outlaw them to save the sanity anyone who owns a toolbox. :) How many billions $$$ could be saved by such a change? :rolleyes: Counterpoint? Anyone with a counterpoint on why slotted is still valid?
A better question is, why hasn't everyone adopted Robertson. Superior to both; invented in Canada; apparently "banned" in the US; something to do with "not invented in the US" I think.
"(I) am amazed to see myself here rather than there ... now rather than then". ― Blaise Pascal
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Here's the question up for debate:
Debate
Why would any modern product use a standard (aka flat head) screw, which requires a standard (flat head) screw driver?
Standard screws are far more difficult to use in a modern era where we have power screw drivers which spin at high RPMs. If you've ever tried this you know that a standard (or slotted screw) will quickly get off balance with each rotation which really creates a challenge. The very least that should be substituted would be the Phillips (+) type. It's much more balanced. I can see using a allen type or Torx or whatever but I just can't understand why slotted would still be used. Why are slotted screws still being produced? In my thinking they should outlaw them to save the sanity anyone who owns a toolbox. :) How many billions $$$ could be saved by such a change? :rolleyes: Counterpoint? Anyone with a counterpoint on why slotted is still valid?
Notice that all the screws in a mechanical wristwatch are slotted. There is a reason for this. The original Phillips driver was designed for building aluminum aircraft. It was designed to cam out before the material being screwed into was damaged. Later cross-drive screws, e.g., frearson, were mostly not designed to cam out. As others have said, with cross-drive screw heads the bit is self-centering. It isn't with slotted screw heads, but the slot is easily restored. If you ruin a cross drive head you need a screw extractor. All the above are much inferior to Torx.
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These things must be considered! :laugh: And, I'd have more if The World would standardize on one screw type. :rolleyes:
A plain-old bread-knife can replace a flathead or slotted screwdriver in a pinch, therefore making as the standard, in my opinion.
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OriginalGriff wrote:
Do you mean "Phillips", or "Posidrive"?
I knew whatever I called phillips and slotted that someone would mention some other name. I did my best to look it up but it seems a lot of people refer to them as phillips. This is a good article / video: Quick Tip: Know Your Screwdrivers (Hint: It's Not a "Flathead!") | Make:[^]
Pozidriv is not just another name, it is a very different head compared to Phillips. You cannot use a Pozidriv bit on a Phillips head and a Phillips bit on a Pozidriv screw very easily starts stripping. Sometimes wikipedia is the way to go... List of screw drives - Wikipedia[^]
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Here's the question up for debate:
Debate
Why would any modern product use a standard (aka flat head) screw, which requires a standard (flat head) screw driver?
Standard screws are far more difficult to use in a modern era where we have power screw drivers which spin at high RPMs. If you've ever tried this you know that a standard (or slotted screw) will quickly get off balance with each rotation which really creates a challenge. The very least that should be substituted would be the Phillips (+) type. It's much more balanced. I can see using a allen type or Torx or whatever but I just can't understand why slotted would still be used. Why are slotted screws still being produced? In my thinking they should outlaw them to save the sanity anyone who owns a toolbox. :) How many billions $$$ could be saved by such a change? :rolleyes: Counterpoint? Anyone with a counterpoint on why slotted is still valid?
My main thought is that for every other type of screw, you need EXACTLY the correct size of screwdriver. So, for a general life, you need 6-8 sizes of Phillips, 8-10 of Torx, 4-6 of Robertson, but you can by with about three flat blade screwdrivers (small, medium, large). Specifically, in electronics, NO, I can think of no reason for a standard screw.
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Notice that all the screws in a mechanical wristwatch are slotted. There is a reason for this. The original Phillips driver was designed for building aluminum aircraft. It was designed to cam out before the material being screwed into was damaged. Later cross-drive screws, e.g., frearson, were mostly not designed to cam out. As others have said, with cross-drive screw heads the bit is self-centering. It isn't with slotted screw heads, but the slot is easily restored. If you ruin a cross drive head you need a screw extractor. All the above are much inferior to Torx.
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My main thought is that for every other type of screw, you need EXACTLY the correct size of screwdriver. So, for a general life, you need 6-8 sizes of Phillips, 8-10 of Torx, 4-6 of Robertson, but you can by with about three flat blade screwdrivers (small, medium, large). Specifically, in electronics, NO, I can think of no reason for a standard screw.
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Here's the question up for debate:
Debate
Why would any modern product use a standard (aka flat head) screw, which requires a standard (flat head) screw driver?
Standard screws are far more difficult to use in a modern era where we have power screw drivers which spin at high RPMs. If you've ever tried this you know that a standard (or slotted screw) will quickly get off balance with each rotation which really creates a challenge. The very least that should be substituted would be the Phillips (+) type. It's much more balanced. I can see using a allen type or Torx or whatever but I just can't understand why slotted would still be used. Why are slotted screws still being produced? In my thinking they should outlaw them to save the sanity anyone who owns a toolbox. :) How many billions $$$ could be saved by such a change? :rolleyes: Counterpoint? Anyone with a counterpoint on why slotted is still valid?
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A plain-old bread-knife can replace a flathead or slotted screwdriver in a pinch, therefore making as the standard, in my opinion.
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We use slotted screws on some products because it is easier to remove contamination & debris in the field.
digidave wrote:
slotted screws on some products because it is easier to remove contamination & debris in the field
Ah, yes. Hadn't thought of that. Getting debris out of the slot is a simple wipe to one side or the other. While a complex shape in the screw head would make it far more difficult. Great point!! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
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A better question is, why hasn't everyone adopted Robertson. Superior to both; invented in Canada; apparently "banned" in the US; something to do with "not invented in the US" I think.
"(I) am amazed to see myself here rather than there ... now rather than then". ― Blaise Pascal
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My uncle (RIP), who was a strong union man, told me that the Robertson screw and screwdriver were banished by the unions because they were "an effective labour saving device".
I'm retired. There's a nap for that... - Harvey
Thanks for that ... helps explain my continued struggle with the "irrational" (and products shipped with Phillips). (And I "should" retire; but I'm not rational either).
"(I) am amazed to see myself here rather than there ... now rather than then". ― Blaise Pascal
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Here's the question up for debate:
Debate
Why would any modern product use a standard (aka flat head) screw, which requires a standard (flat head) screw driver?
Standard screws are far more difficult to use in a modern era where we have power screw drivers which spin at high RPMs. If you've ever tried this you know that a standard (or slotted screw) will quickly get off balance with each rotation which really creates a challenge. The very least that should be substituted would be the Phillips (+) type. It's much more balanced. I can see using a allen type or Torx or whatever but I just can't understand why slotted would still be used. Why are slotted screws still being produced? In my thinking they should outlaw them to save the sanity anyone who owns a toolbox. :) How many billions $$$ could be saved by such a change? :rolleyes: Counterpoint? Anyone with a counterpoint on why slotted is still valid?
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I find Robertson (square head) screws work best. You can put them on the driver and they stay there. Wonderful for drywalling. They are common in Canada, but do not seem to be used much in the USA. (Correct me if I am wrong).
In part, the Robertson screw didn't catch on in the US because after lengthy negotiations Henry Ford refused to license it for his cars. Re sizes of slotted screws: A pro is that slotted screw heads can be turned with almost anything, such as coins, knife blades, putty knives, tin can lids, and so on. The corresponding con is that non-commercial users rarely have a screw bit that actually fits the screw they are trying to turn. Moreover, the sides of the blade are often tapered, rather than parallel planes, with the thought that the bit can be wedged into a range of slot widths. But as a consequence of the wedge shape, the bit tends to cam out. Pro screwdrivers are sold that have exactly the right tip width for, say, the standard slot on #6 wood screws, and have parallel sides. A pleasure to use.
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In part, the Robertson screw didn't catch on in the US because after lengthy negotiations Henry Ford refused to license it for his cars. Re sizes of slotted screws: A pro is that slotted screw heads can be turned with almost anything, such as coins, knife blades, putty knives, tin can lids, and so on. The corresponding con is that non-commercial users rarely have a screw bit that actually fits the screw they are trying to turn. Moreover, the sides of the blade are often tapered, rather than parallel planes, with the thought that the bit can be wedged into a range of slot widths. But as a consequence of the wedge shape, the bit tends to cam out. Pro screwdrivers are sold that have exactly the right tip width for, say, the standard slot on #6 wood screws, and have parallel sides. A pleasure to use.
Thank you for your comment. The Model T was built a century ago, and one would think it of no relevance to the screws we use today. But such might actually be the case. I still prefer the Robertson because once you place the screw on the bit of a power tool, it becomes a one-handed operation. This frees up the other hand to hold things in place. If you can tell me how to do that with a Phillips or a slotted screw driver, I am very much interested. Phillips Screwdriver Versus Robertson Screwdriver[^]
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Thank you for your comment. The Model T was built a century ago, and one would think it of no relevance to the screws we use today. But such might actually be the case. I still prefer the Robertson because once you place the screw on the bit of a power tool, it becomes a one-handed operation. This frees up the other hand to hold things in place. If you can tell me how to do that with a Phillips or a slotted screw driver, I am very much interested. Phillips Screwdriver Versus Robertson Screwdriver[^]
Quote:
If you can tell me how to do that with a Phillips or a slotted screw driver, I am very much interested
Of course you can't. No doubt Robertson screws are great. However, all modern designs share the same doesn't-fall-off property, even the old Allen, with the added advantage that instead of four possible insertion angles, you get six, eight, or even twelve. If there hadn't been further advances in screw drive since P.L. Robertson, his design would be in common use everywhere. But even recently, Torx II is a big improvement over Torx.