Uber self driving car kills woman
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Evolution doesn't have anything to do with the ability of braking in time when a pedestrian jumps in your way in unexpected places while you're controlling a 1500kg mobile object at 38 mph. Or pretty much any other situation that we have to deal with when controlling a car. If anything, the instincts that evolution got us will make us behave inappropriately. If anything, most of evolution taught us that it's best to run over any pedestrian who's stupid enough to run into our path - one less competitor on our hunt for food! In that respect, most autonomous systems are already better than that before they even start training!
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
Stefan_Lang wrote:
Evolution doesn't have anything to do with the ability of braking in time when a pedestrian jumps in your way
Indeed? So you needed someone to teach you how to detect the pedestrian jumping your way? You did not have a naturally evolved image processing system (among other things) in that grey matter between your ears? And a neural net that is by orders of magnitude smaller and with only a tiny fraction of the training time (no matter how you measure it) will do the job better? I wish I could share your optimism.
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats. His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
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Remember the American Mantra: "Guns People don't kill people, people cars kill people".
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
Excatly! It's so easy to use it...
–––– Bang!
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Home sapiens have only been around 200k years. We have only been using faster than human modes of transportation, starting with horses(?), for around 6k years. Regardless of all that, with a human, you are still counting on that person's physical limitations (age, reaction time, visual acuity, etc), their attention span, and the skills they have acquired to be a good driver. With an AI you have (hopefully) a system that pays attention 100% of the time, can aggregate and build upon past experiences of multiple individual systems, and can actually have sensors that surpass what humans can see. Look at it this way, think of the quality of cars before robots were used in mainstream production. The tolerances were able to be tightened and quality has improved by using them. Over time I would think we would get to a point where cars could talk to each other and even help avoid accidents all together.
That's very nice, but falls short of the mark.
milo-xml wrote:
ou are still counting on that person's physical limitations (age, reaction time, visual acuity, etc), their attention span, and the skills they have acquired to be a good driver
Quite so. Since when is any AI capable of forseeing future events by using experience? So far, only we have been able to do that, not even the closest relatives. Here we have stretches of highways without any speed limit. I really enjoy a ride at the maximum speed my car is capable of, usually while having a good eye on what happens on the lanes to the right. Most poeople see you coming and wait until you have passed, but there is always a 'Kamikaze' who pulls out right in front of your nose at a fraction of your current speed. A AI would not react to them until they actually pull out, but then it may already be to late. How do I notice them ahead of time? I don't know. It must be something in the way they behave prior to changing lanes, but I notice them and hit the brakes before they actually do it.
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats. His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
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Stefan_Lang wrote:
Evolution doesn't have anything to do with the ability of braking in time when a pedestrian jumps in your way
Indeed? So you needed someone to teach you how to detect the pedestrian jumping your way? You did not have a naturally evolved image processing system (among other things) in that grey matter between your ears? And a neural net that is by orders of magnitude smaller and with only a tiny fraction of the training time (no matter how you measure it) will do the job better? I wish I could share your optimism.
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats. His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
I did also say at 38 mph. Typically a human moving at 38 mph through pretty much all of evolution was only seeing one thing, and that is the ground he was about to hit - not the kind of stuff going into the genes except into the genes of the onlookers. If evolution taught us anything it is that moving at 38 mph is fatal. Now, of course, if your forefathers were running through the jungle they certainly did learn to react to a creature moving into their path. But, depending on the number of claws and teeth (or raised clubs) of that creature, stopping might not have been the preferred type of reaction. I'm not saying that this is not an important bit of information when deciding that you need to slow down when something moves into your path, but it's also so much different from the evolutionary training, that the lesson learned can be pretty much reduced to saying that: if something moves into your path, slow down. And that is trivial to learn for any autonomous system, no matter how small. In case of the accident, this raises the question why the cars sensors did not detect the woman, or identify it as an actual obstacle. Apparently the driver didn't either, or at least not in time, and his millions of years of evolution didn't help him in any way there. But the car's systems should have been able to both detect the woman (using the LiDAR sensors) and react to it as well (thanks to super-human reaction times). The investigation should focus on these questions.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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Self-driving Uber kills Arizona woman in first fatal crash involving pedestrian | Technology | The Guardian[^] And we know who the passenger was, don't we: God Mode ON | CommitStrip[^]
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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That's very nice, but falls short of the mark.
milo-xml wrote:
ou are still counting on that person's physical limitations (age, reaction time, visual acuity, etc), their attention span, and the skills they have acquired to be a good driver
Quite so. Since when is any AI capable of forseeing future events by using experience? So far, only we have been able to do that, not even the closest relatives. Here we have stretches of highways without any speed limit. I really enjoy a ride at the maximum speed my car is capable of, usually while having a good eye on what happens on the lanes to the right. Most poeople see you coming and wait until you have passed, but there is always a 'Kamikaze' who pulls out right in front of your nose at a fraction of your current speed. A AI would not react to them until they actually pull out, but then it may already be to late. How do I notice them ahead of time? I don't know. It must be something in the way they behave prior to changing lanes, but I notice them and hit the brakes before they actually do it.
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats. His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
CodeWraith wrote:
How do I notice them ahead of time?
I would suspect that you see the person looking at the lane to see if there's room before moving over. :) Normal human reaction time is around a quarter of a second. I think most of the self driving cars are quite a bit less than that, although I don't have the numbers in front of me. Think of it this way though, if that other car had AI, it would see you and not pull out in front of you, or at least speed up before doing that. You're looking at it as me, try looking at it from a collective stand point and I think the advantages tip way to machine advantage. :)
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39.5 on a 35 is within the UK "unofficial tolerance" applied by the police: posted speed + 10% + 2. So they don't worry about 35 in a 30, 46 in a 40, 57 in a 50, ... and 35 would be 40.5 It's to allow for inaccuracies in speedometers and / or tire wear affecting the speedo reading I understand. I'd suspect other countries do the same thing.
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
OriginalGriff wrote:
I'd suspect other countries do the same thing.
Yep. Brazil is the same. Just slightly different tolerance rules.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson ---- Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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Tomaž Štih wrote:
That is why the whole world talks about one casualty on the road while every year human drivers extinguish one Vietnam war of Americans.
Of course you are taking into account the disproportionate numbers of human drivers to robot drivers to arrive at such shocking statements, otherwise it could just as well be plain rhetorics. :-) My old cat was excellent at tracking moving objects and judging distances and speed. It also was arguably far more intelligent than any AI up to now. Perhaps it would have been a good idea to train the cat and give it a driver's license?
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats. His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
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Evolution doesn't have anything to do with the ability of braking in time when a pedestrian jumps in your way in unexpected places while you're controlling a 1500kg mobile object at 38 mph. Or pretty much any other situation that we have to deal with when controlling a car. If anything, the instincts that evolution got us will make us behave inappropriately. If anything, most of evolution taught us that it's best to run over any pedestrian who's stupid enough to run into our path - one less competitor on our hunt for food! In that respect, most autonomous systems are already better than that before they even start training!
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
That's exactly the reason why I am going to stick to driving my car myself rather than handling it over to AI. If a fool jumps in front of my car suddenly, I am going to run over the guy. I don't want the AI to brake hard and send my head to the steerwheel.
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Well, yes. The latest news i saw was that the woman was crossing the road not abruptly, the car and the safety driver should have recognized her. But we will see what the police will state. I also i have to correct the speeding thing, initially they said it was driving 40 in a 35 zone, now it shows it was actually a 45 zone, so no speeding. This article has a good picture of the situation i think -> Pedestrian killed by Uber Self-Driving Car[^]
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}The article you linked was updated to show part of the video footage.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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The article you linked was updated to show part of the video footage.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
Saw it, and that clarified for me that the car was malfunctioning and the "safetydriver" failed totally. The darkness is just because the Dashcam doesn't work as good as a human eye, therefore the light seen might be way of what the driver should have seen and this also should not affect the radar components!
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That's very nice, but falls short of the mark.
milo-xml wrote:
ou are still counting on that person's physical limitations (age, reaction time, visual acuity, etc), their attention span, and the skills they have acquired to be a good driver
Quite so. Since when is any AI capable of forseeing future events by using experience? So far, only we have been able to do that, not even the closest relatives. Here we have stretches of highways without any speed limit. I really enjoy a ride at the maximum speed my car is capable of, usually while having a good eye on what happens on the lanes to the right. Most poeople see you coming and wait until you have passed, but there is always a 'Kamikaze' who pulls out right in front of your nose at a fraction of your current speed. A AI would not react to them until they actually pull out, but then it may already be to late. How do I notice them ahead of time? I don't know. It must be something in the way they behave prior to changing lanes, but I notice them and hit the brakes before they actually do it.
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats. His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
I saw the video of what happened last night. While I don't think most normal people would have been able to react in time, I was dismayed that the car didn't identify the person sooner and prevent it. Police In Arizona Release Dashcam Video Of Fatal Crash Involving Self-Driving Car : The Two-Way : NPR[^]
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I saw the video of what happened last night. While I don't think most normal people would have been able to react in time, I was dismayed that the car didn't identify the person sooner and prevent it. Police In Arizona Release Dashcam Video Of Fatal Crash Involving Self-Driving Car : The Two-Way : NPR[^]
Exactly what I mean. It can only react to a situation, but posesses no foresight.
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats. His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
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Saw it, and that clarified for me that the car was malfunctioning and the "safetydriver" failed totally. The darkness is just because the Dashcam doesn't work as good as a human eye, therefore the light seen might be way of what the driver should have seen and this also should not affect the radar components!
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}I doubt that the driver could have reacted in time even if she had paid close attention: the woman was crossing midway between two overhead lamps, in the darkest area of the street, not wearing reflective clothing, and no active lights on the bike. Even when considering that the driver's eyes should have adapted somewhat to the darkness, it was near impossible to spot the pedestrian wearing dark clothes in the darkest possible area outside the range of the headlights.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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I doubt that the driver could have reacted in time even if she had paid close attention: the woman was crossing midway between two overhead lamps, in the darkest area of the street, not wearing reflective clothing, and no active lights on the bike. Even when considering that the driver's eyes should have adapted somewhat to the darkness, it was near impossible to spot the pedestrian wearing dark clothes in the darkest possible area outside the range of the headlights.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
And that's exactly where the cars systems should have kicked in, by the way, you saw the driver looking to the left ? It felt kinda like she spotted the pedestrian but that is just an assumption. But still, the safetydriver is there to react and pay attention, she failed on that job. It really is questionable if the accident could have been avoided but i guess since there was no breaking effort done by the car they are mostly responsible for the accident. EDIT: An HDR picture of the scene at darkness Where it happened - Album on Imgur[^]
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And that's exactly where the cars systems should have kicked in, by the way, you saw the driver looking to the left ? It felt kinda like she spotted the pedestrian but that is just an assumption. But still, the safetydriver is there to react and pay attention, she failed on that job. It really is questionable if the accident could have been avoided but i guess since there was no breaking effort done by the car they are mostly responsible for the accident. EDIT: An HDR picture of the scene at darkness Where it happened - Album on Imgur[^]
if(!string.IsNullOrWhiteSpace(_signature))
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}I agree that the car should have reacted. Even with just the video as input, there was at least a second to hit the brakes. there is no good reason why it didn't.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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I agree that the car should have reacted. Even with just the video as input, there was at least a second to hit the brakes. there is no good reason why it didn't.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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Self-driving Uber kills Arizona woman in first fatal crash involving pedestrian | Technology | The Guardian[^] And we know who the passenger was, don't we: God Mode ON | CommitStrip[^]
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
It's not the "developer" that "pushes" to have things put into "production". There are some narrow-minded "executives" there that have exceeded their level of competence. Reminds me of shooting chimps into space. Or, can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs.
"(I) am amazed to see myself here rather than there ... now rather than then". ― Blaise Pascal
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Thank you for that, it was an interesting read. From that report it seems that the self driving cars have less minor accidents. It is a lot closer with the more significant accidents, but self-driving cars still have less accidents (although by the admission of the report there is too little data to form any conclusions.) I personally think they over-estimate the number of unreported serious accidents - although I might be wrong there. One thing they omit is the number of incidents that are averted by the driver interceding. I believe all of the data was gathered with an actual driver. What we are seeing more of now is driverless cars. BTW in case you have not guessed I am against driverless cars, as I do not think they are ready yet, but I am not against self-driving cars.
After seeing the accident I now think there is a serious flaw in Uber software. The car didn't even try to apply brakes. Going 40mph directly into human. Besides the fact that there was a time frame of cca. 2 seconds (enough to at least try to apply brakes), and that sensors must've detected the obstacle on the road (Uber has multiple lidars, and radars!) long before that. It probably had at least 6 seconds to react, because it can see in the dark. For self driving car this was an avoidable accident.
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Now I want to see how they show why their little monster did what it did, how it will react in other situations and how to 'cure' it from its delusions. The AI fans always forget that even the dumbest human driver has a few million years of evolution behind him. How can they think to play better in the same league with x hours of training and 'testing'?
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats. His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
CodeWraith wrote:
that even the dumbest human driver has a few million years of evolution behind him. How can they think to play better in the same league with x hours of training and 'testing'?
Those same ones that managed 19,000 deaths and 2.3 million injuries in just the US in the first 6 months of 2015? I am guessing there is quite a bit of wiggle room between 1 and 2.3 million for it to play with. Not to mention of course that all of that evolution has lead to people attempting to text, make phone calls, yelling at the other people in the car, getting high (in the car), eating, putting on makeup and even sometimes putting on their clothes (someone told me they use to change while driving down the a relatively busy and high speed street all the time.) Pretty sure a computer will not be doing most of that. U.S. Traffic Deaths, Injuries and Related Costs Up in 2015[^]
