How to find a Windows app developer?
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There is a widespread feeling in the developer community that platform dependent desktop development is a dead-end. WinForms/GDI+ is considered a new VB6, WPF is half-baked and hasn't had an update for years, and Xamarin requires GTK. Multi-platform desktop products can now be build using alternatives such as Electron Framework and JavaScript. So, yes, desktop development is fading away from the mainstream. Most newcomers prefer agile'n'web drone career, with just enough back-end knowledge for a hello world service using REST/JSON/OWIN/UNITY/Newtonsoft/oauth/(insert 10 other frameworks) technology. In addition to that, the philosophy of old Windows Desktop development and WPF is radically different. So having a good C/C++ programmer once guaranteed a good WinForms programmer, but does not guarantee good WPF programmer, and vice versa, further cutting the developer stock. Tips? Are your requirements carved in stone? Can you live with another technology? If not -- steal a corporate drone. A lot of us still do maintain line of business apps on WinForms/WPF. We can be found either in IT companies that create LOB software or in corporations maintaining legacy LOB systems. p.s. Don't use web developers. They have radically different mindset, they work with gazillion of frameworks, don't know strong typing, storyboard their life, and inject'n'pattern everything that moves. That's all very nice, and cool too, but you don't use a wrench to cut hair. And beware of "standard control" freaks. They don't innovate and their software looks like living DevExpress mutant from the 90ties, with 20 switchable fluorescent control skins that scare the shit out of you, and without any catchy innovative approach that makes your app stand out. You'll recognize them by bloated data-modeling and raping you with screen wireframes.
Tomaž Štih wrote:
p.s. Don't use web developers. They have radically different mindset, they work with gazillion of frameworks, don't know strong typing, storyboard their life, and inject'n'pattern everything that moves. That's all very nice, and cool too, but you don't use a wrench to cut hair. And beware of "standard control" freaks. They don't innovate and their software looks like living DevExpress mutant from the 90ties, with 20 switchable fluorescent control skins that scare the sh*t out of you, and without any catchy innovative approach that makes your app stand out. You'll recognize them by bloated data-modeling and raping you with screen wireframes.
Sorry, but I couldn't disagree with you more. WPF lends itself well to multi-tiered architecture, but UWP is even better. As a matter of fact, following Microsoft's development guidelines for UWP provides a VERY rich and consistent user interface paradigm (something that iOS, but no so much Android thrives upon) which will become very natural in the future, especially since the Win32 versions of Office are about to become extinct. Web development of SPA and ASP.Net MVC is not much different than UWP development. With UWP now being run from DotNet Core, you can even use that back end and put it in the app and have a distributed app that is self contained and can work offline, simply syncing with servers as networking becomes available. You CANNOT do that easily with Web, and hardly anybody does it with mobile. UWP is far more powerful than any other framework out there. Also, with WebAssembly starting to take off, the days of Javascript/Bootstrap/Angular hell are numbered, and those same skills will be directly applicable to UWP as much a WebAssembly. And those "dinosaur" C++ developers have a VERY good platform with UWP to continue their careers as UWP has a very good support for COM objects interacting with the new Windows API from C++.
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I don't know about windows, I work on iOS and Android apps, but one day out of sheer curiosity, I have tried to replicate an HTML5/CSS3/JavaScript(with addons) UI with native elements. Result: disaster, the HTML5/CSS3/Javascript combination happens to be the best and fastest UI platform. Even microsoft tried at one point WinJS I think.
throughout my life, my two greatest assets have been mental stability and being, like, really smart.
Stable Genius wrote:
I don't know about windows, I work on iOS and Android apps, but one day out of sheer curiosity, I have tried to replicate an HTML5/CSS3/JavaScript(with addons) UI with native elements. Result: disaster, the HTML5/CSS3/Javascript combination happens to be the best and fastest UI platform.
iOS and Android apps are not as fully baked as UWP is. Neither uses XAML (unless you are using Xamarin Forms) and that's a BIG disadvantage for them. The AXML paradigm for Android is horrible. XAML is much more natural for web developers. The biggest hurdle is wrapping your brain around styling with XAML, but once you get it, CSS sucks. Now, if someone doesn't WANT to learn a typed language such as C# or C++, then that's not a fault of the platform, but of the developer. Personally, I HATE Javascript development, but I do it when I have to.
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dandy72 wrote:
IMNSHO, that's why you're not finding anyone. While I know mostly Windows developers, nobody's even remotely interested in UWP. There's more interest in transitioning from Windows to other platforms than UWP. You'd be better off skipping that requirement so you don't scare anyone away. Instead look for someone who can adapt to new technologies.
Sorry, but that's a very short-sighted view. Microsoft has made it very clear that Win32 is an endangered species. Microsoft is still over 90% of the desktop and laptop market (and laptops are making a comeback as people learn that Android tablets are not a suitable replacement). Being able to code for UWP is going to become IMMENSELY important to developers as UWP provides a much richer experience than web apps and they use a very similar model in the architecture of how the apps interact with the business systems. Business are not going to toss out there very, very, very expensive dependency on Microsoft Windows and move to Mac or GNU/Linux. Even Google is getting into the UWP game. They are working with Microsoft for a joint app framework based on UWP that will run on both Android (or its rumored replacement) and Windows 10 with Android providing the mobile support and Windows 10 providing the deeper application support. It's very clear the Google sees the writing on the wall about desktop, and that Microsoft was probably already working on this stuff for quite a while before killing Windows 10 Mobile.
The Sharp Ninja http://www.thesharp.ninja http://thesharp.ninja/the-case-for-universal-apps-on-the-desktop/ http://thesharp.ninja/using-the-mvc-pattern-with-windows-10-universal-applications-part-1/
Sharp Ninja wrote:
Microsoft has made it very clear that Win32 is an endangered species
Microsoft also thought it would all be replaced by Metro apps by now. And UWP is little more than the natural progression of that. Remind me, how's the Windows Store doing? Yeah, the writing may be on the wall for Win32 apps, but nobody's impressed with the alternative MS is proposing.
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dandy72 wrote:
IMNSHO
I had to use a search engine for that one... we need a mouseover window to translate these slangs. Best Wishes, -David Delaune
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Is it me or are Windows application developers becoming an endangered species? My company needed a web developer earlier this year and found a great one in only about two weeks through ZipRecruiter. Now we need a Windows desktop/UWP/Xamarin developer and haven't gotten a single qualified applicant. (Plenty of people with web experience apply, apparently without reading the job requirements). Has anyone else gone through this? Any tips?
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Sharp Ninja wrote:
Microsoft has made it very clear that Win32 is an endangered species
Microsoft also thought it would all be replaced by Metro apps by now. And UWP is little more than the natural progression of that. Remind me, how's the Windows Store doing? Yeah, the writing may be on the wall for Win32 apps, but nobody's impressed with the alternative MS is proposing.
The only people who aren't impressed with UWP have never used it, and the Windows Store has many, many, many quality apps in it.
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Is it me or are Windows application developers becoming an endangered species? My company needed a web developer earlier this year and found a great one in only about two weeks through ZipRecruiter. Now we need a Windows desktop/UWP/Xamarin developer and haven't gotten a single qualified applicant. (Plenty of people with web experience apply, apparently without reading the job requirements). Has anyone else gone through this? Any tips?
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Windows Desktop Universal Windows Platform Xamarin You're looking for a mobile developer on two platforms who also knows the Win32/64 API. You're looking for three different detailed skill sets.
Did you not see the word "OR"?
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Is it me or are Windows application developers becoming an endangered species? My company needed a web developer earlier this year and found a great one in only about two weeks through ZipRecruiter. Now we need a Windows desktop/UWP/Xamarin developer and haven't gotten a single qualified applicant. (Plenty of people with web experience apply, apparently without reading the job requirements). Has anyone else gone through this? Any tips?
I used to consider myself one, but there are never any opportunities, so I've had to go web. What's funny is your comment about applicants no reading the job requirements. Because I don't think that I've met a recruiter who has read my resume before calling or emailing.
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The only people who aren't impressed with UWP have never used it, and the Windows Store has many, many, many quality apps in it.
Sharp Ninja wrote:
the Windows Store has many, many, many quality apps in it
That's a well-kept secret if I've ever heard one. Every time the Windows Store is brought up in an article, invariably, even amongst life-long Windows tech journalists, it's to deride it.
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Sharp Ninja wrote:
the Windows Store has many, many, many quality apps in it
That's a well-kept secret if I've ever heard one. Every time the Windows Store is brought up in an article, invariably, even amongst life-long Windows tech journalists, it's to deride it.
To deride it for what? Publishing to it is harder than for Android. Why? Microsoft actually has security and quality standards. Google allows ANYTHING that compiles to be posted to Google Play Store. Sure, it may get taken down later when they find the porn or cryptocurrency malware, but Google encourage crap apps to go there to bolster the numbers.
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To deride it for what? Publishing to it is harder than for Android. Why? Microsoft actually has security and quality standards. Google allows ANYTHING that compiles to be posted to Google Play Store. Sure, it may get taken down later when they find the porn or cryptocurrency malware, but Google encourage crap apps to go there to bolster the numbers.
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Exactly. If the tools are adequate for the task at hand, why change them?
Ad astra - both ways!
Daniel Pfeffer wrote:
If the tools are adequate for the task at hand, why change them?
Because of course that is simplistic. I did work at a company sometime ago where a contract required an update to an app running on Windows 3.1 written in Visual C++ 1.52. The only way we succeeded was because I am a technology packrat and so I had the CDs (not DVDs) with that environment. I still do. The company did not and no one else at the company did either. And I threw out the 3.5 inch disks with Borland C++ on it quite some time ago so no going back on that one. Same is true for something like Java 6. Apps still exist but the VM is no longer supported. So one risks leaving security holes open unless one wants to patch them in house. Even things like timezone changes would need to be patched in house. Beyond that one must also be able to hire someone to keep maintaining it because those with experience either move on, retire or even die. I spent years with C but even quite a while ago I found going back to it very difficult. So difficult that my solution actually was pseudo OO rather than structured because I found it impossible to think in structured terms. Nothing wrong with the application that I was working on, but the skills to use it did not exist (I was the one most qualified to work on it by far.)
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Ah gotcha. Well I could try making that list a little broader because yes obviously someone with a background like yours - even a year ago - would be a shoo in. Thanks for the insight!
You might want to look at restructuring it with 'required' and 'desired'. But even so I would expect a long timeline on a hire and if that isn't going to work then you might want to look for someone that is enthusiastic and with a demonstrated ability to learn.
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Sharp Ninja wrote:
To deride it for what?
Ok, clearly, you're either trolling or in denial. I'm out. Enjoy the Kool-Aid.
It was an honest question. I have worked with Windows Store/UWP apps since Windows 8.1. I've followed the progression of the APIs, the changes to permissions in the various versions and ultimately the integration with .Net Standard 2, which gives you a multitude more programming cases and designs to fit those cases than in previous versions. What gets me is the assertions that if I like something that someone else doesn't then I must be . Or I could take the easy route and nod in agreement and then take a shower.
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It was an honest question. I have worked with Windows Store/UWP apps since Windows 8.1. I've followed the progression of the APIs, the changes to permissions in the various versions and ultimately the integration with .Net Standard 2, which gives you a multitude more programming cases and designs to fit those cases than in previous versions. What gets me is the assertions that if I like something that someone else doesn't then I must be . Or I could take the easy route and nod in agreement and then take a shower.
Ok, here's the thing: I'm a life-long Windows software developer. Going back to DOS in fact. Some would call me a fanboi. While I'd *love* to say the future is UWP, even the Microsoft evangelists will readily admit that adoption is nowhere near to what they'd like it to be. You've got to ask yourself, why is that. There's probably a bit of a catch-22 in the answer. I just find it very uninspiring. I find UIs today to be a serious step back, all in the name of "keeping things simple". However - and this is all my own opinion - based on what've seen, simplicity apparently comes at the cost of functionality, or (if you're lucky) the equivalent functionality requires more clicks to get the same thing done. I'm just not a fan of what's being proposed as the "desktop replacement".
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Daniel Pfeffer wrote:
If the tools are adequate for the task at hand, why change them?
Because of course that is simplistic. I did work at a company sometime ago where a contract required an update to an app running on Windows 3.1 written in Visual C++ 1.52. The only way we succeeded was because I am a technology packrat and so I had the CDs (not DVDs) with that environment. I still do. The company did not and no one else at the company did either. And I threw out the 3.5 inch disks with Borland C++ on it quite some time ago so no going back on that one. Same is true for something like Java 6. Apps still exist but the VM is no longer supported. So one risks leaving security holes open unless one wants to patch them in house. Even things like timezone changes would need to be patched in house. Beyond that one must also be able to hire someone to keep maintaining it because those with experience either move on, retire or even die. I spent years with C but even quite a while ago I found going back to it very difficult. So difficult that my solution actually was pseudo OO rather than structured because I found it impossible to think in structured terms. Nothing wrong with the application that I was working on, but the skills to use it did not exist (I was the one most qualified to work on it by far.)
If you intend to accept contracts requiring maintenance of legacy software, you naturally must keep the necessary tools and runtime environments. No argument there. My original point was directed more at new development. I do not believe that using the latest (and supposedly greatest) framework is always necessary or desirable. If an older framework is still supported by the tool chain, and it meets the requirements - there is no benefit to writing the application using the latest buzzword technology.
Ad astra - both ways!
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I found your job posting on ZipRecruiter. I think the primary turnoff (for me anyway) is that the position is "temporary". How temporary is it?
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
Is it me or are Windows application developers becoming an endangered species? My company needed a web developer earlier this year and found a great one in only about two weeks through ZipRecruiter. Now we need a Windows desktop/UWP/Xamarin developer and haven't gotten a single qualified applicant. (Plenty of people with web experience apply, apparently without reading the job requirements). Has anyone else gone through this? Any tips?
I'd be someone that would be "close" to hitting the reqs, in that I can develop WinForms C#, but alas I had decided a while back to stop chasing all of Micro$oft's API updates. Perhaps a lot of other Windows hackers like Yours Truly have decided the same. I do know that in the good old days, I did not have to have "paid experience" in every single requirement to get a gig; as long as I had the main one, the client would let me learn what I needed to on the job. But clients have gotten used to not having to do that anymore, so I have "early retired".
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Tomaž Štih wrote:
p.s. Don't use web developers. They have radically different mindset, they work with gazillion of frameworks, don't know strong typing, storyboard their life, and inject'n'pattern everything that moves. That's all very nice, and cool too, but you don't use a wrench to cut hair. And beware of "standard control" freaks. They don't innovate and their software looks like living DevExpress mutant from the 90ties, with 20 switchable fluorescent control skins that scare the sh*t out of you, and without any catchy innovative approach that makes your app stand out. You'll recognize them by bloated data-modeling and raping you with screen wireframes.
Sorry, but I couldn't disagree with you more. WPF lends itself well to multi-tiered architecture, but UWP is even better. As a matter of fact, following Microsoft's development guidelines for UWP provides a VERY rich and consistent user interface paradigm (something that iOS, but no so much Android thrives upon) which will become very natural in the future, especially since the Win32 versions of Office are about to become extinct. Web development of SPA and ASP.Net MVC is not much different than UWP development. With UWP now being run from DotNet Core, you can even use that back end and put it in the app and have a distributed app that is self contained and can work offline, simply syncing with servers as networking becomes available. You CANNOT do that easily with Web, and hardly anybody does it with mobile. UWP is far more powerful than any other framework out there. Also, with WebAssembly starting to take off, the days of Javascript/Bootstrap/Angular hell are numbered, and those same skills will be directly applicable to UWP as much a WebAssembly. And those "dinosaur" C++ developers have a VERY good platform with UWP to continue their careers as UWP has a very good support for COM objects interacting with the new Windows API from C++.
