I am so sick of being a developer :-(
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:-D I like it! Taka Muraoka wrote: The point was that the new owner, having more experience, put in place a process that significantly improved the quality of the results that took no extra time (in fact, probably saved a bit of time) and had nothing to do with the skill of the people actually doing the work. However - this is still a "technical" solution - albeit very low tech. A measurement was made as to the level of coffee that should be used to change the pot, based on prior expertise and experience. technical a) Having special skill or practical knowledge especially in a mechanical or scientific field: a technical adviser. b) Used in or peculiar to a specific field or profession; specialized: technical terminology. And they still ran faster and faster and faster, till they all just melted away, and there was nothing left but a great big pool of melted butter "I ask candidates to create an object model of a chicken." -Bruce Eckel
Peter Hancock wrote: However - this is still a "technical" solution No. Ultimately any solution that gets implemented will be "technical" in nature. But in this case, the solution had a non-technical origin. It recognized the fact that human nature being what it is, coffee pots will be drained until they are empty and then new pots will be hurriedly brewed to try catch up. The solution that the new manager came up with actually took the technical considerations out of the process. The girls no longer had to think about what they were doing, technically. All they had to do was follow the procedure and they would get good coffee every time. Taken to extremes, this gives you Big Macs, but there is still value in having processes that recognizes that 1) people are lazy and 2) people are dumb (including myself, on both counts :-() and tries to compensate for that.
Software is everything. It also sucks. Charles Fishman [^] Awasu 1.0.3 (beta)[^]: A free RSS reader with support for Code Project.
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Peter Hancock wrote: technical people ARE aware of the bigger issues, however they know they can't do anything about them. I would very much dispute that. Most techs aren't very good at the non-technical stuff. Peter Hancock wrote: Nobody listens to (or likes) a technical person that speaks up about managerial issues. The stuff I was talking about was not exclusively the province of managers. Development is much more than the process of writing code. Communication, for example, is one important part of it. So if a tech has something to say about poor communication within the group, this is not impinging on somebody else's territory - it is directly relevant to his task at hand. Anyway, so many problems stem from this divide between managers and developers that you suggest. Peter Hancock wrote: if the techo knew so much, they'd be a manager. Bullshit. There are plenty of technical people out there who are perfectly capable of managing but choose not to. Peter Hancock wrote: How many developers like a manager telling them how to build something? If the manager had a clue about what they were talking about, it wouldn't be so bad. And did it in the right way - most devs don't like even other devs telling them how to cut code!
Software is everything. It also sucks. Charles Fishman [^] Awasu 1.0.3 (beta)[^]: A free RSS reader with support for Code Project.
Taka Muraoka wrote: I would very much dispute that. Most techs aren't very good at the non-technical stuff. and then you state Taka Muraoka wrote: Bullshit. There are plenty of technical people out there who are perfectly capable of managing but choose not to. You can't have it both ways. I agree with your second statement though... and my comment "if they knew so much, they'd be a manager" was said tongue in cheek. I shoulda put [sarcasm] around it. Taka Muraoka wrote: Anyway, so many problems stem from this divide between managers and developers that you suggest. With this - I agree wholeheartedly. And they still ran faster and faster and faster, till they all just melted away, and there was nothing left but a great big pool of melted butter "I ask candidates to create an object model of a chicken." -Bruce Eckel
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Taka Muraoka wrote: I would very much dispute that. Most techs aren't very good at the non-technical stuff. and then you state Taka Muraoka wrote: Bullshit. There are plenty of technical people out there who are perfectly capable of managing but choose not to. You can't have it both ways. I agree with your second statement though... and my comment "if they knew so much, they'd be a manager" was said tongue in cheek. I shoulda put [sarcasm] around it. Taka Muraoka wrote: Anyway, so many problems stem from this divide between managers and developers that you suggest. With this - I agree wholeheartedly. And they still ran faster and faster and faster, till they all just melted away, and there was nothing left but a great big pool of melted butter "I ask candidates to create an object model of a chicken." -Bruce Eckel
Peter Hancock wrote: You can't have it both ways. Somehow, I had a feeling you would say that! :rolleyes: Of course I can have it both ways. "All developers" minus "most techs who aren't good at non-tech stuff" gives "the number of people who are perfectly capable of managing" (more or less). Given a sufficiently large "All developers", you can still have plenty of people in the "the number of people who are perfectly capable of managing" category.
Software is everything. It also sucks. Charles Fishman [^] Awasu 1.0.3 (beta)[^]: A free RSS reader with support for Code Project.
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Peter Hancock wrote: You can't have it both ways. Somehow, I had a feeling you would say that! :rolleyes: Of course I can have it both ways. "All developers" minus "most techs who aren't good at non-tech stuff" gives "the number of people who are perfectly capable of managing" (more or less). Given a sufficiently large "All developers", you can still have plenty of people in the "the number of people who are perfectly capable of managing" category.
Software is everything. It also sucks. Charles Fishman [^] Awasu 1.0.3 (beta)[^]: A free RSS reader with support for Code Project.
That's funny.;P:-D And they still ran faster and faster and faster, till they all just melted away, and there was nothing left but a great big pool of melted butter "I ask candidates to create an object model of a chicken." -Bruce Eckel
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After having just sat through a 1:15 meeting (18 people * 1:15 = 22.5 man hours!) listening to people going around and around in circles about best practices and how to improve process, making the same mistakes that just about every other company that ever existed has also already made. I might just go back to Thailand and become a monk (I'm not kidding!). Maybe I could be called Phra l33t :-) Problem is, I really love developing :(( /end_rant
Software is everything. It also sucks. Charles Fishman [^] Awasu 1.0.3 (beta)[^]: A free RSS reader with support for Code Project.
Poor Taka! Seriuosly, dude, why don't you come over to India? You were telling me that sometime back, remember? You see, Venkat or somebody told me that here in India, even VB developers (do I see a contradiction there? ) are paid nice salaries. Now don't hold it against me if you come here and find your salary too low :) - I'm just repeating what Venkat told me. Taka Muraoka wrote: Problem is, I really love developing Uh oh, I see a problem... (with VB, I mean) :) Seriously, my sympathies... and :rose: Vikram. ----------------------------- 1. Don't ask unnecessary questions. You know what I mean? 2. Avoid redundancy at all costs. 3. Avoid redundancy at all costs. "Do not give redundant error messages again and again." - A classmate of mine, while giving a class talk on error detection in compiler design.
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Poor Taka! Seriuosly, dude, why don't you come over to India? You were telling me that sometime back, remember? You see, Venkat or somebody told me that here in India, even VB developers (do I see a contradiction there? ) are paid nice salaries. Now don't hold it against me if you come here and find your salary too low :) - I'm just repeating what Venkat told me. Taka Muraoka wrote: Problem is, I really love developing Uh oh, I see a problem... (with VB, I mean) :) Seriously, my sympathies... and :rose: Vikram. ----------------------------- 1. Don't ask unnecessary questions. You know what I mean? 2. Avoid redundancy at all costs. 3. Avoid redundancy at all costs. "Do not give redundant error messages again and again." - A classmate of mine, while giving a class talk on error detection in compiler design.
Vikram Punathambekar wrote: Seriuosly, dude, why don't you come over to India? Don't tempt me! Know any good monasteries? :-)
Software is everything. It also sucks. Charles Fishman [^] Awasu 1.0.3 (beta)[^]: A free RSS reader with support for Code Project.
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Vikram Punathambekar wrote: Seriuosly, dude, why don't you come over to India? Don't tempt me! Know any good monasteries? :-)
Software is everything. It also sucks. Charles Fishman [^] Awasu 1.0.3 (beta)[^]: A free RSS reader with support for Code Project.
Taka Muraoka wrote: Don't tempt me! Come to India, come to India, come to India... Taka Muraoka wrote: Know any good monasteries? You're kidding, aren't you? If not, sorry- there are no monasteries down South that I know of ( I don't think there are any, anyway). You'll find a lot in North India, though. The states in which Buddhism is prevalent are Sikkim (predominant), J&K (Ladakh), Himachal Pradesh, UP, Uttaranchal and some parts of Bihar and the NE. Of course, there's Dharmashala in HP, where His Holiness the Dalai Lama lives; and Gaya in Bihar where the Buddha attained enlightenment. No, I'm not a Buddhist. Vikram. ----------------------------- 1. Don't ask unnecessary questions. You know what I mean? 2. Avoid redundancy at all costs. 3. Avoid redundancy at all costs. "Do not give redundant error messages again and again." - A classmate of mine, while giving a class talk on error detection in compiler design.
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Taka Muraoka wrote: Don't tempt me! Come to India, come to India, come to India... Taka Muraoka wrote: Know any good monasteries? You're kidding, aren't you? If not, sorry- there are no monasteries down South that I know of ( I don't think there are any, anyway). You'll find a lot in North India, though. The states in which Buddhism is prevalent are Sikkim (predominant), J&K (Ladakh), Himachal Pradesh, UP, Uttaranchal and some parts of Bihar and the NE. Of course, there's Dharmashala in HP, where His Holiness the Dalai Lama lives; and Gaya in Bihar where the Buddha attained enlightenment. No, I'm not a Buddhist. Vikram. ----------------------------- 1. Don't ask unnecessary questions. You know what I mean? 2. Avoid redundancy at all costs. 3. Avoid redundancy at all costs. "Do not give redundant error messages again and again." - A classmate of mine, while giving a class talk on error detection in compiler design.
Vikram Punathambekar wrote: Come to India, come to India, come to India... OK. I'll start looking into tickets tomorrow... :-( Vikram Punathambekar wrote: You're kidding, aren't you? Sort of. I've spent a lot of time in Thailand over the years and it's something I really want to do! All Thai men are expected to do it at some point in their lives, usually before they get married, although you can get away with doing it for just a week. Even Christian Thais have been known to ordain due to the social pressures to do so. Typically, people will do it for 3 months during the rainy season (Pansa) and will often be given time off work to do it. This is what I want to do. Thais practice Therevada Buddhism which is a bit different to elsewhere in the world.
Software is everything. It also sucks. Charles Fishman [^] Awasu 1.0.3 (beta)[^]: A free RSS reader with support for Code Project.
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Vikram Punathambekar wrote: Come to India, come to India, come to India... OK. I'll start looking into tickets tomorrow... :-( Vikram Punathambekar wrote: You're kidding, aren't you? Sort of. I've spent a lot of time in Thailand over the years and it's something I really want to do! All Thai men are expected to do it at some point in their lives, usually before they get married, although you can get away with doing it for just a week. Even Christian Thais have been known to ordain due to the social pressures to do so. Typically, people will do it for 3 months during the rainy season (Pansa) and will often be given time off work to do it. This is what I want to do. Thais practice Therevada Buddhism which is a bit different to elsewhere in the world.
Software is everything. It also sucks. Charles Fishman [^] Awasu 1.0.3 (beta)[^]: A free RSS reader with support for Code Project.
Taka Muraoka wrote: Thailand I thought you were a Jap. :confused: Taka Muraoka wrote: Thais practice Therevada Buddhism which is a bit different to elsewhere in the world. I didn't know that- but does it matter where you do that "monastery internship" ? Vikram. ----------------------------- 1. Don't ask unnecessary questions. You know what I mean? 2. Avoid redundancy at all costs. 3. Avoid redundancy at all costs. "Do not give redundant error messages again and again." - A classmate of mine, while giving a class talk on error detection in compiler design.
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Taka Muraoka wrote: Thailand I thought you were a Jap. :confused: Taka Muraoka wrote: Thais practice Therevada Buddhism which is a bit different to elsewhere in the world. I didn't know that- but does it matter where you do that "monastery internship" ? Vikram. ----------------------------- 1. Don't ask unnecessary questions. You know what I mean? 2. Avoid redundancy at all costs. 3. Avoid redundancy at all costs. "Do not give redundant error messages again and again." - A classmate of mine, while giving a class talk on error detection in compiler design.
Vikram Punathambekar wrote: I thought you were a Jap. Indeed I am. I just happen to like Thailand very much :-) Vikram Punathambekar wrote: but does it matter where you do that "monastery internship" ? It's as much to understand Thailand and the Thais as it is to learn more about Buddhism.
Software is everything. It also sucks. Charles Fishman [^] Awasu 1.0.3 (beta)[^]: A free RSS reader with support for Code Project.
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Taka Muraoka wrote: Don't tempt me! Come to India, come to India, come to India... Taka Muraoka wrote: Know any good monasteries? You're kidding, aren't you? If not, sorry- there are no monasteries down South that I know of ( I don't think there are any, anyway). You'll find a lot in North India, though. The states in which Buddhism is prevalent are Sikkim (predominant), J&K (Ladakh), Himachal Pradesh, UP, Uttaranchal and some parts of Bihar and the NE. Of course, there's Dharmashala in HP, where His Holiness the Dalai Lama lives; and Gaya in Bihar where the Buddha attained enlightenment. No, I'm not a Buddhist. Vikram. ----------------------------- 1. Don't ask unnecessary questions. You know what I mean? 2. Avoid redundancy at all costs. 3. Avoid redundancy at all costs. "Do not give redundant error messages again and again." - A classmate of mine, while giving a class talk on error detection in compiler design.
Vikram Punathambekar wrote: down South Vikram Punathambekar wrote: North India Vikram, people not from India won't understand this north India-south India thing. Just say "India" to them. If it's a specific state you are referring to, tell them its name. I can't see how Taka or anyone else would find the info that something is there in north/south India useful. Name of the state, to some degree. Name of the city, certainly. But north/south/east/west? He won't tell the booking clerk, "A ticket to south India please," will he? ;P
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother Teresa -
Vikram Punathambekar wrote: I thought you were a Jap. Indeed I am. I just happen to like Thailand very much :-) Vikram Punathambekar wrote: but does it matter where you do that "monastery internship" ? It's as much to understand Thailand and the Thais as it is to learn more about Buddhism.
Software is everything. It also sucks. Charles Fishman [^] Awasu 1.0.3 (beta)[^]: A free RSS reader with support for Code Project.
Taka Muraoka wrote: It's as much to understand Thailand and the Thais as it is to learn more about Buddhism Whoa! Understanding Thailand is fine, but do all Buddhists go to Thailand to do this stuff? :confused:
Vikram. ----------------------------- 1. Don't ask unnecessary questions. You know what I mean? 2. Avoid redundancy at all costs. 3. Avoid redundancy at all costs. "Do not give redundant error messages again and again." - A classmate of mine, while giving a class talk on error detection in compiler design.
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Vikram Punathambekar wrote: down South Vikram Punathambekar wrote: North India Vikram, people not from India won't understand this north India-south India thing. Just say "India" to them. If it's a specific state you are referring to, tell them its name. I can't see how Taka or anyone else would find the info that something is there in north/south India useful. Name of the state, to some degree. Name of the city, certainly. But north/south/east/west? He won't tell the booking clerk, "A ticket to south India please," will he? ;P
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother TeresaOK, OK! Still, it takes less than 2 minutes to Google for a map of India. Don't assume everybody is as lazy/dumb as you. ;P2
Vikram. ----------------------------- 1. Don't ask unnecessary questions. You know what I mean? 2. Avoid redundancy at all costs. 3. Avoid redundancy at all costs. "Do not give redundant error messages again and again." - A classmate of mine, while giving a class talk on error detection in compiler design.
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OK, OK! Still, it takes less than 2 minutes to Google for a map of India. Don't assume everybody is as lazy/dumb as you. ;P2
Vikram. ----------------------------- 1. Don't ask unnecessary questions. You know what I mean? 2. Avoid redundancy at all costs. 3. Avoid redundancy at all costs. "Do not give redundant error messages again and again." - A classmate of mine, while giving a class talk on error detection in compiler design.
Vikram Punathambekar wrote: Don't assume everybody is as lazy/dumb as you. You don't assume everyone knows/wants to know as much about India as you do.
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother Teresa -
Vikram Punathambekar wrote: Don't assume everybody is as lazy/dumb as you. You don't assume everyone knows/wants to know as much about India as you do.
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother TeresaRohit Sinha wrote: don't assume everyone knows/wants to know as much about India [innocent voice]But he asked for it.[/innocent voice] Really, pal- he seemed very serious, on more than one occasion. What are you trying to do- preach self-hate? Alright, you don't have to reply to this. BTW, this is how your name turns up in my inbox:
=?UNKNOWN?Q?Rohit=A0?= SinhaIs it due to the fancy HTML-formatting?
Vikram. ----------------------------- 1. Don't ask unnecessary questions. You know what I mean? 2. Avoid redundancy at all costs. 3. Avoid redundancy at all costs. "Do not give redundant error messages again and again." - A classmate of mine, while giving a class talk on error detection in compiler design. -
Rohit Sinha wrote: don't assume everyone knows/wants to know as much about India [innocent voice]But he asked for it.[/innocent voice] Really, pal- he seemed very serious, on more than one occasion. What are you trying to do- preach self-hate? Alright, you don't have to reply to this. BTW, this is how your name turns up in my inbox:
=?UNKNOWN?Q?Rohit=A0?= SinhaIs it due to the fancy HTML-formatting?
Vikram. ----------------------------- 1. Don't ask unnecessary questions. You know what I mean? 2. Avoid redundancy at all costs. 3. Avoid redundancy at all costs. "Do not give redundant error messages again and again." - A classmate of mine, while giving a class talk on error detection in compiler design.Vikram Punathambekar wrote: What are you trying to do- preach self-hate? Me? Why do you think so? And the answer is no. I think I'm the most vocal supporter of India here. If you have any doubt, see my sig. And if you mean self as in self, as in me, Rohit Sinha, the answer is no again. I love myself more than anything/anyone in the world. Vikram Punathambekar wrote: BTW, this is how your name turns up in my inbox: =?UNKNOWN?Q?Rohit=A0?= Sinha Is it due to the fancy HTML-formatting? Maybe. :~ I don't really have any idea. Sancharnet does some wierd things with the email it recieves. Try recieving an attachment. I am assuming you use the web interface, and not Outlook.
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother Teresa -
Vikram Punathambekar wrote: What are you trying to do- preach self-hate? Me? Why do you think so? And the answer is no. I think I'm the most vocal supporter of India here. If you have any doubt, see my sig. And if you mean self as in self, as in me, Rohit Sinha, the answer is no again. I love myself more than anything/anyone in the world. Vikram Punathambekar wrote: BTW, this is how your name turns up in my inbox: =?UNKNOWN?Q?Rohit=A0?= Sinha Is it due to the fancy HTML-formatting? Maybe. :~ I don't really have any idea. Sancharnet does some wierd things with the email it recieves. Try recieving an attachment. I am assuming you use the web interface, and not Outlook.
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother TeresaRohit Sinha wrote: I think I'm the most vocal supporter of India here. Umm...yes, but that post of yours was very unlike you. Rohit Sinha wrote: I love myself more than anything/anyone in the world. Somebody who is like me :~ Rohit Sinha wrote: Sancharnet does some wierd things with the email it recieves. Try recieving an attachment. I am assuming you use the web interface, and not Outlook I think it does- all links are converted to plaintext, and are not clickable. X| I am using the web interface. Whaddaya mean, try receiving an attachment? Yes, Sancharnet is wierd- Jorgen's name turns up as
=?UNKNOWN?Q?J=F6rgen?= Sigvardssontoo. But my Operamail box is bursting...
Vikram. ----------------------------- 1. Don't ask unnecessary questions. You know what I mean? 2. Avoid redundancy at all costs. 3. Avoid redundancy at all costs. "Do not give redundant error messages again and again." - A classmate of mine, while giving a class talk on error detection in compiler design. -
Rohit Sinha wrote: I think I'm the most vocal supporter of India here. Umm...yes, but that post of yours was very unlike you. Rohit Sinha wrote: I love myself more than anything/anyone in the world. Somebody who is like me :~ Rohit Sinha wrote: Sancharnet does some wierd things with the email it recieves. Try recieving an attachment. I am assuming you use the web interface, and not Outlook I think it does- all links are converted to plaintext, and are not clickable. X| I am using the web interface. Whaddaya mean, try receiving an attachment? Yes, Sancharnet is wierd- Jorgen's name turns up as
=?UNKNOWN?Q?J=F6rgen?= Sigvardssontoo. But my Operamail box is bursting...
Vikram. ----------------------------- 1. Don't ask unnecessary questions. You know what I mean? 2. Avoid redundancy at all costs. 3. Avoid redundancy at all costs. "Do not give redundant error messages again and again." - A classmate of mine, while giving a class talk on error detection in compiler design.Vikram Punathambekar wrote: Whaddaya mean, try receiving an attachment? If you get an attachment in mail, and try to view it/download it through the web interface, it just corrupts the thing. :(
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother Teresa -
Taka Muraoka wrote: It's as much to understand Thailand and the Thais as it is to learn more about Buddhism Whoa! Understanding Thailand is fine, but do all Buddhists go to Thailand to do this stuff? :confused:
Vikram. ----------------------------- 1. Don't ask unnecessary questions. You know what I mean? 2. Avoid redundancy at all costs. 3. Avoid redundancy at all costs. "Do not give redundant error messages again and again." - A classmate of mine, while giving a class talk on error detection in compiler design.
Vikram Punathambekar wrote: but do all Buddhists go to Thailand to do this stuff? No, of course not! There are plenty of foreigners in Tibet and Japan and elsewhere. There are temples in England and the US and I presume in Australia as well and people ordain there as well. Some people look for a certain style of Buddhism. I just happen to like Thailand :-)
Software is everything. It also sucks. Charles Fishman [^] Awasu 1.0.3 (beta)[^]: A free RSS reader with support for Code Project.
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Hmmm... Interesting post :yikes: :-) Colin Davies wrote: They should be taken outside and dealt to It's not really the devs that are the cause of the problems. [edit] There are good devs and there are bad devs (i.e. inexperienced or less skillful) and there are devs in between. The trick is to manage the mix properly. Sure, there are people around that are so bad and/or disruptive that they need to be fired but there's no-one like that here. [/edit] Colin Davies wrote: And on a further note, managers that expect to be respected becaause they have a management job are morons. Respect should be gained and is not a right. Too true, in any area of life. Colin Davies wrote: Taka if enough of your co-workers feel the same way as you I suggest you revolt I'm a contractor here so I don't really have a personal stake in it. I just find it really depressing to see companies make the same mistakes over and over again. People who actually give a damn about what they do and want to do a good job can't because they're crippled by poor work practices and processes. Stuff that we, as an industry, should have surely learnt to know better about by now. Learning from your mistakes is all good and well but it's much smarter to learn from other people's mistakes. Then you don't have to make the mistakes even once! I had a long chat with someone recently about this kind of thing. The problem with technical people and things like this is that they think that the way to fix it is through technical solutions. Not realising that the *underlying* problems are caused by not understanding how people work, operate and communicate. In other words, social, interpersonal issues rather than technical issues.
Software is everything. It also sucks. Charles Fishman [^] Awasu 1.0.3 (beta)[^]: A free RSS reader with support for Code Project.
Taka Muraoka wrote: I just find it really depressing to see companies make the same mistakes over and over again. People who actually give a damn about what they do and want to do a good job can't because they're crippled by poor work practices and processes. This kind of things is one of the things that makes me feed up of this industry , some situations are truly pathetic and still people continue to resist change and hate any kind of thing that shakes their poor work habits ... Cheers,Joao Vaz And if your dream is to care for your family, to put food on the table, to provide them with an education and a good home, then maybe suffering through an endless, pointless, boring job will seem to have purpose. And you will realize how even a rock can change the world, simply by remaining obstinately stationary.-Shog9 Remember just because a good thing comes to an end, doesn't mean that the next one can't be better.-Chris Meech