The march toward UWP/Core ?
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Have you installed Java or just about any product from Oracle lately?
This space for rent
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Have you installed Java or just about any product from Oracle lately?
This space for rent
Or Corel, they are damn good at that as well. "Add bugs and Bloat!" - I think that is actually the corporate Mission Statement. Checkout Paintshop Pro 10 (JASC version) vs X9 (Corel version) :sigh:
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640 Never throw anything away, Griff Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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I've been following with interest the evolution of ,NET Core, and was interested to read the latest from MS in the article cited by Kent yesterday: [^] which included the following:
Quote:
t a recent Visual Studio Live! conference, Microsoft's Beth Massi indicated that .NET Core is definitely the future -- even for those Windows desktop applications -- and it was time for developers to get onboard. Specifically, the message was that future .NET Core versions would support those desktop apps, obviating the earlier advice about which applications should be ported. "As we move forward into the future, with .NET Core 3, we're going to see some more workloads that we're going to be working on here, mainly Windows desktop," Massi said. "We're bringing Windows desktop workloads to .NET Core 3, as well as AI and IoT scenarios. "The big deal here is now that if you're a WinForms or WPF developer you can actually utilize the .NET Core runtime."
Okay, what puzzles me is that I never seem to hear anything about what a developer who creates apps with rich visual interfaces involving complex controls ... does. I assume (wrongly ?) that the quirky set of WinForm controls (wrappers around COM based cores) we've had since the late neolithic cannot be used since they depend on low-level Win API stuff. So, where's the TreeView, the ListView, the DateTimePicker ? What if I need a grid, a useful grid, not something like that abomination called 'DataGridView ? I gotta pony-up mega-bucks to Telerik, SyncFusion, etc. ? If there is a "march" going on here, I hope it's not a "death march," like the WPF, or SilverLight, or "Modern UI" disasters. cheers, old fossil, Bill
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
BillWoodruff wrote:
like that abomination called 'DataGridView
I've use the DevExpress grid control professionally and love it. I was reminded again last week about the well-termed abomination of the DataGridView when I was writing a configuration UI for a silly little app that I'm writing an article about, and don't want to tie the reader to a 3rd party requirement. [We hates it!](http://tesseraguild.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/gollum.jpeg)
Latest Article - A Concise Overview of Threads Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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BillWoodruff wrote:
like that abomination called 'DataGridView
I've use the DevExpress grid control professionally and love it. I was reminded again last week about the well-termed abomination of the DataGridView when I was writing a configuration UI for a silly little app that I'm writing an article about, and don't want to tie the reader to a 3rd party requirement. [We hates it!](http://tesseraguild.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/gollum.jpeg)
Latest Article - A Concise Overview of Threads Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
Marc Clifton wrote:
I was reminded again last week about the well-termed abomination of the DataGridView when I was writing a configuration UI for a silly little app that I'm writing an article about, and don't want to tie the reader to a 3rd party requirement. We hates it!
Latest Article - A Concise Overview of Threads
Have you tried CListCtrl?
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
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BillWoodruff wrote:
like that abomination called 'DataGridView
I've use the DevExpress grid control professionally and love it. I was reminded again last week about the well-termed abomination of the DataGridView when I was writing a configuration UI for a silly little app that I'm writing an article about, and don't want to tie the reader to a 3rd party requirement. [We hates it!](http://tesseraguild.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/gollum.jpeg)
Latest Article - A Concise Overview of Threads Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
I'd say that any superfluous dependency is an abomination; the DGV is well documented, has a good performance, and simply works. It is a huge leap forward from the FlexiGrid of VB6 :thumbsup:
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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I've been following with interest the evolution of ,NET Core, and was interested to read the latest from MS in the article cited by Kent yesterday: [^] which included the following:
Quote:
t a recent Visual Studio Live! conference, Microsoft's Beth Massi indicated that .NET Core is definitely the future -- even for those Windows desktop applications -- and it was time for developers to get onboard. Specifically, the message was that future .NET Core versions would support those desktop apps, obviating the earlier advice about which applications should be ported. "As we move forward into the future, with .NET Core 3, we're going to see some more workloads that we're going to be working on here, mainly Windows desktop," Massi said. "We're bringing Windows desktop workloads to .NET Core 3, as well as AI and IoT scenarios. "The big deal here is now that if you're a WinForms or WPF developer you can actually utilize the .NET Core runtime."
Okay, what puzzles me is that I never seem to hear anything about what a developer who creates apps with rich visual interfaces involving complex controls ... does. I assume (wrongly ?) that the quirky set of WinForm controls (wrappers around COM based cores) we've had since the late neolithic cannot be used since they depend on low-level Win API stuff. So, where's the TreeView, the ListView, the DateTimePicker ? What if I need a grid, a useful grid, not something like that abomination called 'DataGridView ? I gotta pony-up mega-bucks to Telerik, SyncFusion, etc. ? If there is a "march" going on here, I hope it's not a "death march," like the WPF, or SilverLight, or "Modern UI" disasters. cheers, old fossil, Bill
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
No.
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I've been following with interest the evolution of ,NET Core, and was interested to read the latest from MS in the article cited by Kent yesterday: [^] which included the following:
Quote:
t a recent Visual Studio Live! conference, Microsoft's Beth Massi indicated that .NET Core is definitely the future -- even for those Windows desktop applications -- and it was time for developers to get onboard. Specifically, the message was that future .NET Core versions would support those desktop apps, obviating the earlier advice about which applications should be ported. "As we move forward into the future, with .NET Core 3, we're going to see some more workloads that we're going to be working on here, mainly Windows desktop," Massi said. "We're bringing Windows desktop workloads to .NET Core 3, as well as AI and IoT scenarios. "The big deal here is now that if you're a WinForms or WPF developer you can actually utilize the .NET Core runtime."
Okay, what puzzles me is that I never seem to hear anything about what a developer who creates apps with rich visual interfaces involving complex controls ... does. I assume (wrongly ?) that the quirky set of WinForm controls (wrappers around COM based cores) we've had since the late neolithic cannot be used since they depend on low-level Win API stuff. So, where's the TreeView, the ListView, the DateTimePicker ? What if I need a grid, a useful grid, not something like that abomination called 'DataGridView ? I gotta pony-up mega-bucks to Telerik, SyncFusion, etc. ? If there is a "march" going on here, I hope it's not a "death march," like the WPF, or SilverLight, or "Modern UI" disasters. cheers, old fossil, Bill
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
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I'd say that any superfluous dependency is an abomination; the DGV is well documented, has a good performance, and simply works. It is a huge leap forward from the FlexiGrid of VB6 :thumbsup:
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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I'd say that any superfluous dependency is an abomination; the DGV is well documented, has a good performance, and simply works. It is a huge leap forward from the FlexiGrid of VB6 :thumbsup:
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
It is a huge leap forward from the FlexiGrid of VB6
That may be, but having to click to select the row, then click to select the cell, then click to pull down the dropdown of combobox grid item, well, that's an abomination in my book. :)
Latest Article - A Concise Overview of Threads Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
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I was going to respond similarly...now I don't have to! :laugh: Well said! :) I try my best to stay away from third-party libraries.
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
kmoorevs wrote:
I try my best to stay away from third-party libraries.
DevExpress (and I'm sure the others) are incredible. You'll never go back to the standard WinForm / WPF controls once you start using them. And besides, you're missing out on all the hair pulling, teeth gnashing complexity of their object models, and the constant googling "how do I do this simple thing?" :laugh:
Latest Article - A Concise Overview of Threads Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
-
I've been following with interest the evolution of ,NET Core, and was interested to read the latest from MS in the article cited by Kent yesterday: [^] which included the following:
Quote:
t a recent Visual Studio Live! conference, Microsoft's Beth Massi indicated that .NET Core is definitely the future -- even for those Windows desktop applications -- and it was time for developers to get onboard. Specifically, the message was that future .NET Core versions would support those desktop apps, obviating the earlier advice about which applications should be ported. "As we move forward into the future, with .NET Core 3, we're going to see some more workloads that we're going to be working on here, mainly Windows desktop," Massi said. "We're bringing Windows desktop workloads to .NET Core 3, as well as AI and IoT scenarios. "The big deal here is now that if you're a WinForms or WPF developer you can actually utilize the .NET Core runtime."
Okay, what puzzles me is that I never seem to hear anything about what a developer who creates apps with rich visual interfaces involving complex controls ... does. I assume (wrongly ?) that the quirky set of WinForm controls (wrappers around COM based cores) we've had since the late neolithic cannot be used since they depend on low-level Win API stuff. So, where's the TreeView, the ListView, the DateTimePicker ? What if I need a grid, a useful grid, not something like that abomination called 'DataGridView ? I gotta pony-up mega-bucks to Telerik, SyncFusion, etc. ? If there is a "march" going on here, I hope it's not a "death march," like the WPF, or SilverLight, or "Modern UI" disasters. cheers, old fossil, Bill
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
BillWoodruff wrote:
Okay, what puzzles me is that I never seem to hear anything about what a developer who creates apps with rich visual interfaces involving complex controls ... does.
They cut hair. And they work for the NFL. [EDIT] He cuts hair. And he works for the NFL. [END EDIT]
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Eddy Vluggen wrote:
It is a huge leap forward from the FlexiGrid of VB6
That may be, but having to click to select the row, then click to select the cell, then click to pull down the dropdown of combobox grid item, well, that's an abomination in my book. :)
Latest Article - A Concise Overview of Threads Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
Marc Clifton wrote:
That may be, but having to click to select the row, then click to select the cell, then click to pull down the dropdown of combobox grid item, well, that's an abomination in my book. :)
That's the developers choice; AFAIK, one click is enough to select, the second one puts it in edit-mode.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Bill, WPF is hardly in a death march. It's in the same position as Windows Forms in that there is a team supporting it, it does get some enhancements and it's very much alive for the foreseeable future. If it were dead, or near death, Microsoft would have to invest a huge amount of time in rewriting the Visual Studio UI which uses it heavily. I get it, you don't like it, but that doesn't mean it's dead and buried or that there aren't plenty of people who do like it and use it a lot.
This space for rent
Hi, Pete, I do not hate WPF ! I'm in awe of what people like you, Josh Smith, Sacha Barber, and others, did/do with it. I have great respect for the excellent facilities WPF has compared to WinForms: orthogonal vector rendering for everything; dependency management, powerful binding, support for animations, property change notifications, etc. I do feel that Win developers got led a merry chase in the whole trauma a la Sinofsky regarding MS waffling on technical support for WPF going forward, killing SilverLight ... I know you know what I am talking about here. imho, the confusion was only intensified by the abortive Win RT thing, and the Modern UI debacle that led to Sinofsky's departure. In addition, the first (current ?) schizoid VS UI for developing in WPF with split window and dysfunctional relationship between XAML, GUI, and "code-first:" imho that turned a lot of people off, at the same time engendering the cult of savants who styled themselves the "WPF Disciples," your good self included :) To wit: the transformation of our own esteemed mentor, Marc Clifton, from early XAML pioneer to recent statements, here, that, now, he hates it. Do you believe these events I mention did not impair the adoption of WPF, and cause companies and devs to lose time and money ? Do you believe that WPF is, now, even considered a prime candidate for new projects in major software houses who are being dragged into mobile+desktop/cross-platform/ web-centric apps willing-or-not ? From my point of view: if all that time and money had been invested into transforming WinForms so it had a vector-based retained mode 2d graphic engine, and all the other advanced goodness of WPF, and made cross platform in the ways that Core and Xamarin are doing now with Win: WinForms would be "on top of the world," and all god's children would have shoes. But, the modal "culture" of software development seems to be cycles of the next shiny thing getting the glory, the development money, the buzz ... meanwhile, back at the ranch Joe and Betty developer often get by using the older tool-sets, performing what I call "dinosaur dentistry" to shimmy their work into awkward symbiosis with the latest. Today, I was reading an update on Xamarin Forms 3.3: [^] ... oh glory, they now have labels and buttons, and images, kind-a working better ! The article's sub-title: "Little Things, Huge Difference." B
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I've been following with interest the evolution of ,NET Core, and was interested to read the latest from MS in the article cited by Kent yesterday: [^] which included the following:
Quote:
t a recent Visual Studio Live! conference, Microsoft's Beth Massi indicated that .NET Core is definitely the future -- even for those Windows desktop applications -- and it was time for developers to get onboard. Specifically, the message was that future .NET Core versions would support those desktop apps, obviating the earlier advice about which applications should be ported. "As we move forward into the future, with .NET Core 3, we're going to see some more workloads that we're going to be working on here, mainly Windows desktop," Massi said. "We're bringing Windows desktop workloads to .NET Core 3, as well as AI and IoT scenarios. "The big deal here is now that if you're a WinForms or WPF developer you can actually utilize the .NET Core runtime."
Okay, what puzzles me is that I never seem to hear anything about what a developer who creates apps with rich visual interfaces involving complex controls ... does. I assume (wrongly ?) that the quirky set of WinForm controls (wrappers around COM based cores) we've had since the late neolithic cannot be used since they depend on low-level Win API stuff. So, where's the TreeView, the ListView, the DateTimePicker ? What if I need a grid, a useful grid, not something like that abomination called 'DataGridView ? I gotta pony-up mega-bucks to Telerik, SyncFusion, etc. ? If there is a "march" going on here, I hope it's not a "death march," like the WPF, or SilverLight, or "Modern UI" disasters. cheers, old fossil, Bill
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
Fantastic post. You raise a lot a really great questions here. Very interested in how this will all play out and how well (or unwell X| ) Microsoft handles it. Will they just kill technologies like they have in the past? Will it take far too many years to finally get UWP and Core working properly so that it is adopted happily by devs? We will see.
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Hi, Pete, I do not hate WPF ! I'm in awe of what people like you, Josh Smith, Sacha Barber, and others, did/do with it. I have great respect for the excellent facilities WPF has compared to WinForms: orthogonal vector rendering for everything; dependency management, powerful binding, support for animations, property change notifications, etc. I do feel that Win developers got led a merry chase in the whole trauma a la Sinofsky regarding MS waffling on technical support for WPF going forward, killing SilverLight ... I know you know what I am talking about here. imho, the confusion was only intensified by the abortive Win RT thing, and the Modern UI debacle that led to Sinofsky's departure. In addition, the first (current ?) schizoid VS UI for developing in WPF with split window and dysfunctional relationship between XAML, GUI, and "code-first:" imho that turned a lot of people off, at the same time engendering the cult of savants who styled themselves the "WPF Disciples," your good self included :) To wit: the transformation of our own esteemed mentor, Marc Clifton, from early XAML pioneer to recent statements, here, that, now, he hates it. Do you believe these events I mention did not impair the adoption of WPF, and cause companies and devs to lose time and money ? Do you believe that WPF is, now, even considered a prime candidate for new projects in major software houses who are being dragged into mobile+desktop/cross-platform/ web-centric apps willing-or-not ? From my point of view: if all that time and money had been invested into transforming WinForms so it had a vector-based retained mode 2d graphic engine, and all the other advanced goodness of WPF, and made cross platform in the ways that Core and Xamarin are doing now with Win: WinForms would be "on top of the world," and all god's children would have shoes. But, the modal "culture" of software development seems to be cycles of the next shiny thing getting the glory, the development money, the buzz ... meanwhile, back at the ranch Joe and Betty developer often get by using the older tool-sets, performing what I call "dinosaur dentistry" to shimmy their work into awkward symbiosis with the latest. Today, I was reading an update on Xamarin Forms 3.3: [^] ... oh glory, they now have labels and buttons, and images, kind-a working better ! The article's sub-title: "Little Things, Huge Difference." B
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Have you installed Java or just about any product from Oracle lately?
This space for rent
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Marc Clifton wrote:
I was reminded again last week about the well-termed abomination of the DataGridView when I was writing a configuration UI for a silly little app that I'm writing an article about, and don't want to tie the reader to a 3rd party requirement. We hates it!
Latest Article - A Concise Overview of Threads
Have you tried CListCtrl?
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash One Fine Saturday. 24/04/2004
Michael Martin wrote:
Have you tried CListCtrl?
It's a good point and we often do that trade-off here when we want to do some list/grid view type of data. The bad thing is that DataGridView makes some things so easy (laziness rules!) like the way you can set the datasource to a dataset and forget about it. Or, well, you can forget about good functionality and nice UI too, but laziness rules!!!. Then you go to use the ListView and you can make it look so nice but it so much work. :confused: X| :| Laziness rules!!! :laugh:
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I'm reading these out of order, but this is another great write-up. Maybe you ought to write up an article on this. Something like, "State of Windows Desktop Development: What Has Been, What Is, and What Will It Be?" :) :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
I appreciate your kind words, Raddevus, but Bill (now seventy-five, and near half-blind) is no one to talk about "big picture" software development in the last few years. Bill is busy making rings to sell so he can hopefully save his eyes while remaining in the strange country, Thailand, he has come to love; and, when he's not doing that, or pursuing his own creative writing, or studying the iconography of Asian sacred/animist art, ancient trade routes, and folklore ... he finds little time for pursuing programming and pulling his oar in QA :) My hope is that my somewhat hyperbolic comments may evoke some response from the many people here on CP I consider mentors, friends, colleagues ... who, I believe, are much more up-to-date than I am. cheers, Bill
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
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Hi, Pete, I do not hate WPF ! I'm in awe of what people like you, Josh Smith, Sacha Barber, and others, did/do with it. I have great respect for the excellent facilities WPF has compared to WinForms: orthogonal vector rendering for everything; dependency management, powerful binding, support for animations, property change notifications, etc. I do feel that Win developers got led a merry chase in the whole trauma a la Sinofsky regarding MS waffling on technical support for WPF going forward, killing SilverLight ... I know you know what I am talking about here. imho, the confusion was only intensified by the abortive Win RT thing, and the Modern UI debacle that led to Sinofsky's departure. In addition, the first (current ?) schizoid VS UI for developing in WPF with split window and dysfunctional relationship between XAML, GUI, and "code-first:" imho that turned a lot of people off, at the same time engendering the cult of savants who styled themselves the "WPF Disciples," your good self included :) To wit: the transformation of our own esteemed mentor, Marc Clifton, from early XAML pioneer to recent statements, here, that, now, he hates it. Do you believe these events I mention did not impair the adoption of WPF, and cause companies and devs to lose time and money ? Do you believe that WPF is, now, even considered a prime candidate for new projects in major software houses who are being dragged into mobile+desktop/cross-platform/ web-centric apps willing-or-not ? From my point of view: if all that time and money had been invested into transforming WinForms so it had a vector-based retained mode 2d graphic engine, and all the other advanced goodness of WPF, and made cross platform in the ways that Core and Xamarin are doing now with Win: WinForms would be "on top of the world," and all god's children would have shoes. But, the modal "culture" of software development seems to be cycles of the next shiny thing getting the glory, the development money, the buzz ... meanwhile, back at the ranch Joe and Betty developer often get by using the older tool-sets, performing what I call "dinosaur dentistry" to shimmy their work into awkward symbiosis with the latest. Today, I was reading an update on Xamarin Forms 3.3: [^] ... oh glory, they now have labels and buttons, and images, kind-a working better ! The article's sub-title: "Little Things, Huge Difference." B
BillWoodruff wrote:
considered a prime candidate for new projects in major software houses
I'd be astonished if any major shops are considering anything other than web based UIs. I think WPF has devolved into a mainly corporate tool.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity - RAH I'm old. I know stuff - JSOP
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kmoorevs wrote:
I try my best to stay away from third-party libraries.
DevExpress (and I'm sure the others) are incredible. You'll never go back to the standard WinForm / WPF controls once you start using them. And besides, you're missing out on all the hair pulling, teeth gnashing complexity of their object models, and the constant googling "how do I do this simple thing?" :laugh:
Latest Article - A Concise Overview of Threads Learning to code with python is like learning to swim with those little arm floaties. It gives you undeserved confidence and will eventually drown you. - DangerBunny Artificial intelligence is the only remedy for natural stupidity. - CDP1802
Marc Clifton wrote:
And besides, you're missing out on all the hair pulling, teeth gnashing complexity of their object models
:laugh: I dropped Infragistics for Telerik because of the complexity of the object model - yet another of my brilliant choices (Silverlight being the other one).
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity - RAH I'm old. I know stuff - JSOP
