Gab.com 'no-platformed', thoughts?
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W∴ Balboos wrote:
If you hire someone to commit a murder, who's responsible? You didn't kill anyone! Most would agree that you would be guilty of murder. You did, in this case with cash, inspire it. Suppose, instead, you just talked them into it? Now what? Just because no money changed hands, are you not still the instigator of the crime?
There is precedent for both, and they are generally equal from a criminal standpoint. The old row of the housewife getting her lover to murder her husband for the insurance money; all very Lifetime movie but not without some kernel of reality. It seems like there is a push to redefine "incitement", though, to include some very basic ideas or, more worryingly, basic political disagreement.
"Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor
Redefine . . . or just start calling it what it is? When you post about committing genocide - encouraging others to begin the process - is that protected? Yes? Do you allow recruitment for the task? Just find yourself as the target and then distinctions become all too clear!
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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We're sort of in a discussion of 'what is freedom of speech' - as it's known (at least to some of us) that there are limitation on what you can say. However - in a sense, you are giving (justifiable) weight to the decisions of the large carriers and other business that could otherwise be implicated in aiding and abetting. There's the Law. There's Reality. In the 'best of all worlds' it would be a proper balance, but then, too, in the best of all world's we'd not even need the law.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
I get where you are coming from but there is no precedent for going after the social media platforms. They don't go after the phone companies for their users discussing crimes or UPS/FedEx for delivering pipe bombs. Social media can be lumped in with the service provider class of businesses; legally detached from the goods provided and/or delivered. As far as free speech in America, the 1st Amendment grants all but U.S. Federal Law has, without protest, excluded liable and incitement from protection under it. There might be one or two other kinds of speech that are not afforded protection under the 1st Amendment but I couldn't tell you which ones.
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I agree with most of your points. I do believe that if you are going to exercise your freedom it is your duty to take responsibility for it. However, when it comes to speech that is, well impolite and distasteful to put it lightly, I would think that it is better for that speech to take place in the light instead of in the dark. Forcing these kind of thoughts into the shadows does not afford society the opportunity to counter them or, at least, keep tabs on them.
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Just a counterpoint. Putting it out into widely available mediums (vs hidden in secretive places) also does offer a greater opportunity for recruitment, as well. Give someone a scapegoat and they often go for it (re: history). It's better they be watch whilst trying to hide - give them something else to worry about.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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I get where you are coming from but there is no precedent for going after the social media platforms. They don't go after the phone companies for their users discussing crimes or UPS/FedEx for delivering pipe bombs. Social media can be lumped in with the service provider class of businesses; legally detached from the goods provided and/or delivered. As far as free speech in America, the 1st Amendment grants all but U.S. Federal Law has, without protest, excluded liable and incitement from protection under it. There might be one or two other kinds of speech that are not afforded protection under the 1st Amendment but I couldn't tell you which ones.
if (Object.DividedByZero == true) { Universe.Implode(); }
Foothill wrote:
They don't go after the phone companies for their users discussing crimes
The phone company is not a broadcast media in the "public space" of the airwaves (in the past) and internet in the now. It's hard to incite a riot one phone call at a time. Get up in front of a crowd with a microphone and things have changed. Even the phone calls are covered under racketeering laws. I don't know exactly where to take a stand on this. But I do know I'm enough of a minority that I may well be targeted 'next". So I get touchy on the subject - but really I should be touchy before it may involve me.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Just a comment on the stores (cake makers). If they do business in public; with the public, and expect protection from public services (police, fire) and the use of public resources to support the operation of their business, then they have to accommodate all of those who contribute to making their public business possible. If they go private - well that's what privacy is all about. Advertise in churches and get all their business that way, for example. No store-front sales. No walk ins. We can't control how people feel about things; what's abhorrent and what is not. If, however, we let it invade the public domain, then we go down the crapper as a community pretty quickly. That's what I think.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Then by that same argument, no public business can say "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service." Should a person be allowed to walk into a business and demand to be served just because the business is on a public street and the business owner have NO recourse other than to serve them? The bakery wasn't preventing those people (since I don't know their names and the bakery wasn't allowing them to be customers) from obtaining a cake, just that this particular bakery would not be providing it. The potential customers had the freedom to find another baker. Forcing a baker to create a cake for you OR forcing anyone to perform a service for you under penalty of law is tantamount to slavery.
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Then by that same argument, no public business can say "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service." Should a person be allowed to walk into a business and demand to be served just because the business is on a public street and the business owner have NO recourse other than to serve them? The bakery wasn't preventing those people (since I don't know their names and the bakery wasn't allowing them to be customers) from obtaining a cake, just that this particular bakery would not be providing it. The potential customers had the freedom to find another baker. Forcing a baker to create a cake for you OR forcing anyone to perform a service for you under penalty of law is tantamount to slavery.
In your world, then, we would still have the encounters with "No Blacks Need Apply". No thanks . . .
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Foothill wrote:
They don't go after the phone companies for their users discussing crimes
The phone company is not a broadcast media in the "public space" of the airwaves (in the past) and internet in the now. It's hard to incite a riot one phone call at a time. Get up in front of a crowd with a microphone and things have changed. Even the phone calls are covered under racketeering laws. I don't know exactly where to take a stand on this. But I do know I'm enough of a minority that I may well be targeted 'next". So I get touchy on the subject - but really I should be touchy before it may involve me.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
It really does come down to how you perceive what these social media platforms are. You argue that they are more akin to radio and television because one source can broadcast to many. I argue that they are more akin to phones and the postal service because they deliver bits of information from one person to another. And we are both right. So, what do you do with a means of communication that has the impact of TV but provides content impossible to regulate or properly police?
if (Object.DividedByZero == true) { Universe.Implode(); }
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It really does come down to how you perceive what these social media platforms are. You argue that they are more akin to radio and television because one source can broadcast to many. I argue that they are more akin to phones and the postal service because they deliver bits of information from one person to another. And we are both right. So, what do you do with a means of communication that has the impact of TV but provides content impossible to regulate or properly police?
if (Object.DividedByZero == true) { Universe.Implode(); }
One major difference in the media: mail and telephone have a single targeted endpoint. Internet/TV/Radio/etc: have broad, often anonymous, end points. The latter is an opportunity to fish for attention and influence with persons you may never meet. That, it least, is how I differentiate.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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One major difference in the media: mail and telephone have a single targeted endpoint. Internet/TV/Radio/etc: have broad, often anonymous, end points. The latter is an opportunity to fish for attention and influence with persons you may never meet. That, it least, is how I differentiate.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Majerus wrote:
Services like GoDaddy and PayPal are under no obligation to provide service to anyone and Gab has no first amendment right to compel them to provide service.
Exactly. Let's say you post on twitter showing your support for the democrats, and all of the banks get together to simultaneously decide that they no longer want to provide you with a service because you don't share their political views, so your account is shut down. There's nothing wrong with that, they are under no obligation to provide you with a service, I mean you can just build your own bank. Let's say ISPs do the same and disconnect you from the internet. Nothing wrong with that, they're under no obligation to provide you with a service, you can always build your own international communications framework. These are perfectly reasonable opinions to hold...what could possibly go wrong?
F-ES Sitecore wrote:
and all of the banks get together to simultaneously
It's not a very good analogy because if all the banks decided to pick on me that would suggest the heavy hand of an authoritarian government so I really don't have any solution to that sort of predicament.
F-ES Sitecore wrote:
Let's say ISPs do the same and disconnect you from the internet.
I think that regulating the internet like a public utility might be the way to go. It has been proposed previously but Republicans currently in power oppose it and they oppose net neutrality as well. So in the deregulated world that Republicans desire, I could get blocked and would have no recourse.
Before the oath, Trump has managed to surpass 2nd term Nixon for paranoia, 2nd term Reagan for corruption & 2nd term Bush for incompetence.--R. Schooley Frank Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” The president fired the FBI director to obstruct a federal investigation into possible collusion with a foreign power to fix an election. - Jesse Berne
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From what I have observed of the law, the "rich and famous" don't fall under the same rules as the rest of us. Furthermore, when a husband/wife team that commits a crime, the sentence for the husband is almost invariably far harsher.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
It's not perfect, no, but I think the more serious the charge the harder it is to use wealth and fame to avoid it, and it seems to be the opposite on twitter; the more powerful you are the harsher and swifter the punishment for disagreeing with twitter. As for sentencing, again that's a different matter related to courts and how the rule, it isn't written into the legislation that one person should be treated more harshly than another.
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It's not perfect, no, but I think the more serious the charge the harder it is to use wealth and fame to avoid it, and it seems to be the opposite on twitter; the more powerful you are the harsher and swifter the punishment for disagreeing with twitter. As for sentencing, again that's a different matter related to courts and how the rule, it isn't written into the legislation that one person should be treated more harshly than another.
F-ES Sitecore wrote:
it seems to be the opposite on twitter; the more powerful you are the harsher and swifter the punishment
Is this based upon fact or supposition? After all, you don't hear about everything they do - just what the "rich and famous" - because no one cares. The imperfections - rich vs. poor; male vs. female. Both go against the spirit of the law. As though it ever was respected. But consider this - the current president used his wealth to bankrupt multiple contractors by not paying them. All he need to do was have his attorneys tie up the whole thing in courts until they go bankrupt. "Them what has - gets". The tax system, too, allows those with the most to hide their money from taxation. For example, Mitt Romney (who released his tax forms) paid a net Federal income tax of 14%. How much do you pay? Did he really need a tax cut? Outrage, based upon your political persuasion at George Soros or the Coke Brothers. I deviated - the questions above are rhetorical - and there's privileged on the left, as well, at least as shown with the last example. So - legislate and control the platforms? I wouldn't want the likes of Bernie Sanders sticking his nose into the regulation any more than Mitch McConnell. Both have agendas and they "distasteful" to me in the extreme. And (for example) Mark Zuckerberg? I'm no fan of his, either. He only addresses problems when he's caught. Same as the others, after all. Like in the song "Mrs Robinson" (Simon & Garfunkle): "Any way you look at it you lose."
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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F-ES Sitecore wrote:
it seems to be the opposite on twitter; the more powerful you are the harsher and swifter the punishment
Is this based upon fact or supposition? After all, you don't hear about everything they do - just what the "rich and famous" - because no one cares. The imperfections - rich vs. poor; male vs. female. Both go against the spirit of the law. As though it ever was respected. But consider this - the current president used his wealth to bankrupt multiple contractors by not paying them. All he need to do was have his attorneys tie up the whole thing in courts until they go bankrupt. "Them what has - gets". The tax system, too, allows those with the most to hide their money from taxation. For example, Mitt Romney (who released his tax forms) paid a net Federal income tax of 14%. How much do you pay? Did he really need a tax cut? Outrage, based upon your political persuasion at George Soros or the Coke Brothers. I deviated - the questions above are rhetorical - and there's privileged on the left, as well, at least as shown with the last example. So - legislate and control the platforms? I wouldn't want the likes of Bernie Sanders sticking his nose into the regulation any more than Mitch McConnell. Both have agendas and they "distasteful" to me in the extreme. And (for example) Mark Zuckerberg? I'm no fan of his, either. He only addresses problems when he's caught. Same as the others, after all. Like in the song "Mrs Robinson" (Simon & Garfunkle): "Any way you look at it you lose."
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos wrote:
Is this based upon fact or supposition?
Anecdotal evidence. There are lots of minor accounts that do nothing but spew hate all day and nothing happens. There are some well-known celebrities that have said some horrible things on twitter and no action is taken. Then people like Alex Jones are un-personed, Candice Owens has her account restricted and so on. The list of conservatives on twitter that have been sanctioned is long.
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F-ES Sitecore wrote:
and all of the banks get together to simultaneously
It's not a very good analogy because if all the banks decided to pick on me that would suggest the heavy hand of an authoritarian government so I really don't have any solution to that sort of predicament.
F-ES Sitecore wrote:
Let's say ISPs do the same and disconnect you from the internet.
I think that regulating the internet like a public utility might be the way to go. It has been proposed previously but Republicans currently in power oppose it and they oppose net neutrality as well. So in the deregulated world that Republicans desire, I could get blocked and would have no recourse.
Before the oath, Trump has managed to surpass 2nd term Nixon for paranoia, 2nd term Reagan for corruption & 2nd term Bush for incompetence.--R. Schooley Frank Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” The president fired the FBI director to obstruct a federal investigation into possible collusion with a foreign power to fix an election. - Jesse Berne
Majerus wrote:
I think that regulating the internet like a public utility might be the way to go. It has been proposed previously but Republicans currently in power oppose it and they oppose net neutrality as well. So in the deregulated world that Republicans desire, I could get blocked and would have no recourse.
You know the internet isn't American, right?
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W∴ Balboos wrote:
Is this based upon fact or supposition?
Anecdotal evidence. There are lots of minor accounts that do nothing but spew hate all day and nothing happens. There are some well-known celebrities that have said some horrible things on twitter and no action is taken. Then people like Alex Jones are un-personed, Candice Owens has her account restricted and so on. The list of conservatives on twitter that have been sanctioned is long.
Alex Jones - if he actually believed the stuff he spews/promotes, he should be committed. He doesn't. He has been spreading hateful hurtful speech for a long time - he finally (and all too late) got called out on it. Candice Jones - I noted this for her recent "history":
Quote:
In October 2018, during the bombing attempts targeting prominent Democrats, Owens tried to spread the conspiracy theory that the assassination attempts were a "false flag" operation by "leftists".[44] After authorities arrested a 56 year old suspect who is a registered Republican and Trump supporter on October 26, Owens deleted her comments without explanation.[45]
IF (and I UC'd it deliberately) the right wing is suffering from more bannings it is because of their new boldness in making any statements they want with, for the most part, impunity. Per the quote, above, a lot of conservatives spouted out their explanation, which had no basis in fact but did have a motive to keep the pot of hate stirred; division amplified. Hump would call it fake news . . . if it came from a liberal. There's a reason behind this: it is a source of power and that means money. As long as their is divisions there are those who can make a good living off of it. Think of Al Sharpton - a dyed-in-the-well sleaze. How would he make a living if people got along? Hanity, with the monstrous platform of Faux News, can spout any shit he wants to - they increase his rating and that's the type of shit that makes the station money. And if he's proven wrong . . . well that's not his problem. Lefties blame the right. Righties blame the left. Everyone's looking for someone to blame. They're all all just a commodity . . . suckers.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Majerus wrote:
I think that regulating the internet like a public utility might be the way to go. It has been proposed previously but Republicans currently in power oppose it and they oppose net neutrality as well. So in the deregulated world that Republicans desire, I could get blocked and would have no recourse.
You know the internet isn't American, right?
F-ES Sitecore wrote:
ou know the internet isn't American
But I live in the US, the cables that come into my house are in the US and so is my ISP. And even if my ISP did not reside in the US, if it wishes to do business in the US, it can be regulated.
Before the oath, Trump has managed to surpass 2nd term Nixon for paranoia, 2nd term Reagan for corruption & 2nd term Bush for incompetence.--R. Schooley Frank Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” The president fired the FBI director to obstruct a federal investigation into possible collusion with a foreign power to fix an election. - Jesse Berne
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In case you don't know, Gab.com had everything internet pulled out from under them for having the Pittsburgh synagogue shooter as one of their users. Article[^] Just wondering what the community here at CP thinks about this. Does Gab.com deserve this, do you think that they are the victim of circumstance, or is this this a coordinated attack against them**? What does this say about the freedom of the internet? Could any site or service be erased from the internet for providing alternative services? Discuss. ** Given the speed at which they disappeared from the web, I'm leaning toward attack.
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I saw this article that Medium had apparently deleted: Gab.com Statement On The Tree of Life Synagogue Shooting[^]
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Alex Jones - if he actually believed the stuff he spews/promotes, he should be committed. He doesn't. He has been spreading hateful hurtful speech for a long time - he finally (and all too late) got called out on it. Candice Jones - I noted this for her recent "history":
Quote:
In October 2018, during the bombing attempts targeting prominent Democrats, Owens tried to spread the conspiracy theory that the assassination attempts were a "false flag" operation by "leftists".[44] After authorities arrested a 56 year old suspect who is a registered Republican and Trump supporter on October 26, Owens deleted her comments without explanation.[45]
IF (and I UC'd it deliberately) the right wing is suffering from more bannings it is because of their new boldness in making any statements they want with, for the most part, impunity. Per the quote, above, a lot of conservatives spouted out their explanation, which had no basis in fact but did have a motive to keep the pot of hate stirred; division amplified. Hump would call it fake news . . . if it came from a liberal. There's a reason behind this: it is a source of power and that means money. As long as their is divisions there are those who can make a good living off of it. Think of Al Sharpton - a dyed-in-the-well sleaze. How would he make a living if people got along? Hanity, with the monstrous platform of Faux News, can spout any shit he wants to - they increase his rating and that's the type of shit that makes the station money. And if he's proven wrong . . . well that's not his problem. Lefties blame the right. Righties blame the left. Everyone's looking for someone to blame. They're all all just a commodity . . . suckers.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos wrote:
He has been spreading hateful hurtful speech for a long time
Have to admit I'm not familiar with his work, you see when I don't agree with someone I simply don't listen to what they have to say. Maybe you could give me examples of the hate speech he spreads?
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W∴ Balboos wrote:
He has been spreading hateful hurtful speech for a long time
Have to admit I'm not familiar with his work, you see when I don't agree with someone I simply don't listen to what they have to say. Maybe you could give me examples of the hate speech he spreads?
Alex Jones - Wikipedia[^] Hateful speech, fear, uncertainty, and gullibility are this stock-in-trade. You can just start at the top, although his views are a little further down the page. And that's even before the "Controversies" section.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Alex Jones - Wikipedia[^] Hateful speech, fear, uncertainty, and gullibility are this stock-in-trade. You can just start at the top, although his views are a little further down the page. And that's even before the "Controversies" section.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos wrote:
Hateful speech, fear, uncertainty, and gullibility are this stock-in-trade.
So it won't be hard for you to give me actual examples of the kind of hate speech that is his stock-in-trade?