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25 US Dollars

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  • C Chris Losinger

    $25 doesn't go far in the US a beer in a bar is around $4 an average lunch is around $6 a roll of slide film is $4, add $8 for developing a decent (but not great) bottle of wine is $12 a CD from a store is at least $15 it costs $21 to fill up my VW Passat with 93 octane a dinner at a decent restaurant is easily $25/person almost any new PC game will be $49, $39 after a month or so my monthly cable bill, including broadband, is $85 To vote with no response is to follow the way of the coward.

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    Richard Stringer
    wrote on last edited by
    #12

    Funny thing - money. 25.00 is about 20 min pay but I am an old fart and remember when 25.00 was all that stood between me and the street :) So I am careful with money - with some minor exceptions such as guitars and food. Chris Losinger wrote: a beer in a bar is around $4 About what it is in Dallas unless you go to one of the snobby little micro brew places - much like the fern bars of yesteryear - that are popping up here and there. A 12 pack of St. Pauli Girl costs me 11.88 and I can take it home and for about 2 dollars a day have a couple of nice cold beers on that patio every evening. Much more enjoyable that a bar or pub. Chris Losinger wrote: an average lunch is around $6 Not unless its at a fast food joint or a greasy spoon diner. I usually bring a lunch but I do go out 1-2 days a week and my credit card statements reflect an average cost of about 12 dollars. Chris Losinger wrote: a roll of slide film is $4, add $8 for developing One word - digital. I am not really sure of the actual cost but I can print up 8x10 prints for about 75 cents apiece on decent grade paper. Premium paper costs a quite a bit more but is seldom needed. We take abot 400-500 photos a month - many more than we did back in the old days. Chris Losinger wrote: my monthly cable bill, including broadband, is $85 Mine is 80.00 a month not including broadband. I have a DSL connection that runs 39.95 per month. Richard In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. Orson Welles

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    • P Paul Watson

      Is $25 a reasonable amount of money to you? To me it is, it is not an amount I will spend on a whim. It is the equivalent of two hundred and fifty South African Rand. That is the same as 10 prime time movie tickets or 25 Big Macs. I ask because David Stone was quite amazed that I am hesitant to pay $25 for Trillian Pro. $25 which to him was spent quite easily. $25 to me which I simply won't pay for Trillian Pro, the free version does well enough. (This also brings up the question about shareware authors and how they price their goods.) For those who live in first world countries; Do you realise that $25 to most of the world is not peanuts, that it is an amount which careful thought is given to on spending? Actually it is an amount that many simply don't have. Even for a middle class white boy like me living in a reasonable third world country like South Africa $25 is a lot of money. Just curious, David Stone was quite amazed :)

      Paul Watson
      Bluegrass
      Cape Town, South Africa

      Vivek Rajan wrote (about the Matrix): I assume they are using low colors because they want faster rendering using cheaper hardware... ...Cmon - atleast use 256 colors...

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      Russell Morris
      wrote on last edited by
      #13

      Paul Watson wrote: That is the same as 10 prime time movie tickets or 25 Big Macs. Movie tickets in the 'States tend to go for around $8. My incredibly cheap rent, per month, is $600 + utilities -- Russell Morris "Have you gone mad Frink? Put down that science pole!"

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      • P Paul Watson

        Is $25 a reasonable amount of money to you? To me it is, it is not an amount I will spend on a whim. It is the equivalent of two hundred and fifty South African Rand. That is the same as 10 prime time movie tickets or 25 Big Macs. I ask because David Stone was quite amazed that I am hesitant to pay $25 for Trillian Pro. $25 which to him was spent quite easily. $25 to me which I simply won't pay for Trillian Pro, the free version does well enough. (This also brings up the question about shareware authors and how they price their goods.) For those who live in first world countries; Do you realise that $25 to most of the world is not peanuts, that it is an amount which careful thought is given to on spending? Actually it is an amount that many simply don't have. Even for a middle class white boy like me living in a reasonable third world country like South Africa $25 is a lot of money. Just curious, David Stone was quite amazed :)

        Paul Watson
        Bluegrass
        Cape Town, South Africa

        Vivek Rajan wrote (about the Matrix): I assume they are using low colors because they want faster rendering using cheaper hardware... ...Cmon - atleast use 256 colors...

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        John Honan
        wrote on last edited by
        #14

        Paul Watson wrote: (This also brings up the question about shareware authors and how they price their goods.) I don't want to sound self-righteous, but I am one of these rare people who do register shareware. For example Paint Shop Pro (you are on day 634 of your evaluation period!) and Winzip, which I use all the time. My philosophy on this is simple. If it's a product I like, and use, then I'd want to see it's development continued. And the only way that's going to happen is to pay the developer something for his troubles. But I have spent far more money on high-end commercial software, like VS.Net Architect, and Delphi, and Office XP, than all my shareware purchases combined. John www.silveronion.com[^]

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        • P Paul Watson

          Is $25 a reasonable amount of money to you? To me it is, it is not an amount I will spend on a whim. It is the equivalent of two hundred and fifty South African Rand. That is the same as 10 prime time movie tickets or 25 Big Macs. I ask because David Stone was quite amazed that I am hesitant to pay $25 for Trillian Pro. $25 which to him was spent quite easily. $25 to me which I simply won't pay for Trillian Pro, the free version does well enough. (This also brings up the question about shareware authors and how they price their goods.) For those who live in first world countries; Do you realise that $25 to most of the world is not peanuts, that it is an amount which careful thought is given to on spending? Actually it is an amount that many simply don't have. Even for a middle class white boy like me living in a reasonable third world country like South Africa $25 is a lot of money. Just curious, David Stone was quite amazed :)

          Paul Watson
          Bluegrass
          Cape Town, South Africa

          Vivek Rajan wrote (about the Matrix): I assume they are using low colors because they want faster rendering using cheaper hardware... ...Cmon - atleast use 256 colors...

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          The Limey
          wrote on last edited by
          #15

          I guess a copy of the OS you are using to operate your computer is free in South Africa. As an example Mac OSX in South Africa R1500 and in the USA $150, converted into Big Mac Currency about the same No?. The problem is not money it is attitude. You are quite free to sell your shareware to a world market and receive world market prices, or would you rather that South African companies only get paid in Big Macs. Get Real. He who laughs last thinks slowest.

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          • P Paul Watson

            Is $25 a reasonable amount of money to you? To me it is, it is not an amount I will spend on a whim. It is the equivalent of two hundred and fifty South African Rand. That is the same as 10 prime time movie tickets or 25 Big Macs. I ask because David Stone was quite amazed that I am hesitant to pay $25 for Trillian Pro. $25 which to him was spent quite easily. $25 to me which I simply won't pay for Trillian Pro, the free version does well enough. (This also brings up the question about shareware authors and how they price their goods.) For those who live in first world countries; Do you realise that $25 to most of the world is not peanuts, that it is an amount which careful thought is given to on spending? Actually it is an amount that many simply don't have. Even for a middle class white boy like me living in a reasonable third world country like South Africa $25 is a lot of money. Just curious, David Stone was quite amazed :)

            Paul Watson
            Bluegrass
            Cape Town, South Africa

            Vivek Rajan wrote (about the Matrix): I assume they are using low colors because they want faster rendering using cheaper hardware... ...Cmon - atleast use 256 colors...

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            Shog9 0
            wrote on last edited by
            #16

            $25 here will get you less than 10 Big Macs (with tax) For a good dinner, i can easily spend that or more, unless i'm careful [about who i bring with]... IMHO, Trillian Pro is easily worth $25... but then again, i had donated $10 prior to the Pro version being released, so i got it for that. ;)

            - Shog9 -

            I'd show a smile but I'm too weak I'd share with you, could I only speak

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            • P Paul Watson

              Is $25 a reasonable amount of money to you? To me it is, it is not an amount I will spend on a whim. It is the equivalent of two hundred and fifty South African Rand. That is the same as 10 prime time movie tickets or 25 Big Macs. I ask because David Stone was quite amazed that I am hesitant to pay $25 for Trillian Pro. $25 which to him was spent quite easily. $25 to me which I simply won't pay for Trillian Pro, the free version does well enough. (This also brings up the question about shareware authors and how they price their goods.) For those who live in first world countries; Do you realise that $25 to most of the world is not peanuts, that it is an amount which careful thought is given to on spending? Actually it is an amount that many simply don't have. Even for a middle class white boy like me living in a reasonable third world country like South Africa $25 is a lot of money. Just curious, David Stone was quite amazed :)

              Paul Watson
              Bluegrass
              Cape Town, South Africa

              Vivek Rajan wrote (about the Matrix): I assume they are using low colors because they want faster rendering using cheaper hardware... ...Cmon - atleast use 256 colors...

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              Roger Wright
              wrote on last edited by
              #17

              It's a relative thing... Though AZ is one of the cheapest places to live in the US, $25 is a lot of money. In terms of effort to acquire $25 represents a full day's pay here. If you buy local goods and services it can go a long way - 25 beers (if you don't tip), 33 games of darts or 50 games of pool, 3 movie tickets, 2 nice but inexpensive dinners (no drinks), 1 month of Internet access (dialup only). I have no idea what that is in Big Macs, as I would never buy one, even for the neighbor's cat. If you buy things provided by other places it's a different ballgame - 1/2 of an average technical book, 2 unpopular CDs, a magazine subscription, 25 newspapers (LA Times), 1 gallon of paint, 1 bottle of decent wine, 3 chickens, 1 week of auto insurance, 1/3 of an office visit to the doctor (assuming he does nothing but look at you), 1 week of any low-cost prescription medicine. But $25 for an excellent IM product seems quite reasonable if you spend any significant time chatting with friends or family.

              "Ask not for whom the bell tolls;
              It tolls for thee..."

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              • P Paul Watson

                Is $25 a reasonable amount of money to you? To me it is, it is not an amount I will spend on a whim. It is the equivalent of two hundred and fifty South African Rand. That is the same as 10 prime time movie tickets or 25 Big Macs. I ask because David Stone was quite amazed that I am hesitant to pay $25 for Trillian Pro. $25 which to him was spent quite easily. $25 to me which I simply won't pay for Trillian Pro, the free version does well enough. (This also brings up the question about shareware authors and how they price their goods.) For those who live in first world countries; Do you realise that $25 to most of the world is not peanuts, that it is an amount which careful thought is given to on spending? Actually it is an amount that many simply don't have. Even for a middle class white boy like me living in a reasonable third world country like South Africa $25 is a lot of money. Just curious, David Stone was quite amazed :)

                Paul Watson
                Bluegrass
                Cape Town, South Africa

                Vivek Rajan wrote (about the Matrix): I assume they are using low colors because they want faster rendering using cheaper hardware... ...Cmon - atleast use 256 colors...

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                Jon Sagara
                wrote on last edited by
                #18

                Paul Watson wrote: Is $25 a reasonable amount of money to you? Yes.

                Jon Sagara
                In India, when someone says "mad cow", you know it's actually a bull charging at him. -- Rohit Sinha

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                • P Paul Watson

                  Is $25 a reasonable amount of money to you? To me it is, it is not an amount I will spend on a whim. It is the equivalent of two hundred and fifty South African Rand. That is the same as 10 prime time movie tickets or 25 Big Macs. I ask because David Stone was quite amazed that I am hesitant to pay $25 for Trillian Pro. $25 which to him was spent quite easily. $25 to me which I simply won't pay for Trillian Pro, the free version does well enough. (This also brings up the question about shareware authors and how they price their goods.) For those who live in first world countries; Do you realise that $25 to most of the world is not peanuts, that it is an amount which careful thought is given to on spending? Actually it is an amount that many simply don't have. Even for a middle class white boy like me living in a reasonable third world country like South Africa $25 is a lot of money. Just curious, David Stone was quite amazed :)

                  Paul Watson
                  Bluegrass
                  Cape Town, South Africa

                  Vivek Rajan wrote (about the Matrix): I assume they are using low colors because they want faster rendering using cheaper hardware... ...Cmon - atleast use 256 colors...

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                  Chris Richardson
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #19

                  Well, considering when I go out tonight with my girlfriend, I will probably spend $100 in an hour and a half at the bar, no, $25 is not a lot of money to me (except when money gets tight :)). Here's a table of what things cost around here: - A tank of gas in my Jeep == $25 - Dinner for two at an average restaurant (not fancy) == $45 - Case of beer (24) == $19 - Food for a week from the grocery store == $40 I live in a suburb of Minneapolis, MN, USA. Not one of the more expensive places to live. Chris Richardson
                  Terrain Software

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                  • R Russell Morris

                    Paul Watson wrote: That is the same as 10 prime time movie tickets or 25 Big Macs. Movie tickets in the 'States tend to go for around $8. My incredibly cheap rent, per month, is $600 + utilities -- Russell Morris "Have you gone mad Frink? Put down that science pole!"

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                    Joshua Quick
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #20

                    In the San Francisco area, movie tickets now cost $9.25. So, $25 will allow you to buy 2 tickets and maybe one small drink. Don't get me started on rent. I'm paying $1500 for 2 bedroom, which is $500 less than what I was paying 3 years ago during the .COM boom.

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                    • P Paul Watson

                      Is $25 a reasonable amount of money to you? To me it is, it is not an amount I will spend on a whim. It is the equivalent of two hundred and fifty South African Rand. That is the same as 10 prime time movie tickets or 25 Big Macs. I ask because David Stone was quite amazed that I am hesitant to pay $25 for Trillian Pro. $25 which to him was spent quite easily. $25 to me which I simply won't pay for Trillian Pro, the free version does well enough. (This also brings up the question about shareware authors and how they price their goods.) For those who live in first world countries; Do you realise that $25 to most of the world is not peanuts, that it is an amount which careful thought is given to on spending? Actually it is an amount that many simply don't have. Even for a middle class white boy like me living in a reasonable third world country like South Africa $25 is a lot of money. Just curious, David Stone was quite amazed :)

                      Paul Watson
                      Bluegrass
                      Cape Town, South Africa

                      Vivek Rajan wrote (about the Matrix): I assume they are using low colors because they want faster rendering using cheaper hardware... ...Cmon - atleast use 256 colors...

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                      David Wulff
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #21

                      That's what, £15? (It is, I checked the exchange rates). If I had it in my hand walking home I would probably spend it on snacks just for the journey and maybe a magazine or two. I'd probably keep a fiver back just to avoid breaking into anything bigger for the odd newspaper here and there. I'm not rich by any means, well not like that, but pocket change is not worth holding onto IMHO. Look at it in perspective - £15 is one round at the pub for four people.


                      David Wulff

                      "Without hopes and dreams we're directionless" - Anna

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                      • P Paul Watson

                        Is $25 a reasonable amount of money to you? To me it is, it is not an amount I will spend on a whim. It is the equivalent of two hundred and fifty South African Rand. That is the same as 10 prime time movie tickets or 25 Big Macs. I ask because David Stone was quite amazed that I am hesitant to pay $25 for Trillian Pro. $25 which to him was spent quite easily. $25 to me which I simply won't pay for Trillian Pro, the free version does well enough. (This also brings up the question about shareware authors and how they price their goods.) For those who live in first world countries; Do you realise that $25 to most of the world is not peanuts, that it is an amount which careful thought is given to on spending? Actually it is an amount that many simply don't have. Even for a middle class white boy like me living in a reasonable third world country like South Africa $25 is a lot of money. Just curious, David Stone was quite amazed :)

                        Paul Watson
                        Bluegrass
                        Cape Town, South Africa

                        Vivek Rajan wrote (about the Matrix): I assume they are using low colors because they want faster rendering using cheaper hardware... ...Cmon - atleast use 256 colors...

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                        Wesner Moise
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #22

                        My wife is from China. She always saves every last bit of money--she won't spare a few dollars. Her brother makes $500 a month in China (more than she did when she was in China), whereas she makes over $5000/month here. Food and clothing are very cheap in China. When we went to China, we took out around 12 people to a very formal restaurant with excellent food and excellent ambience and service--and we paid for the whole dinner, which may have been like $25 for everything. It would have been like $40 bucks per person or $500 total here considering the quality of the restaurant. I can tell that she has a strong sense of the value of each dollar she spends, because she is constantly converting it to Chinese yuan in her mind--and she knows she can already do quite well in China if she were to go back with what she is currently making. She does not want to spend anything, because everything she buys feels expensive. She saves money like crazy; even with the lower amount of money made in China, the Chinese still have a saving rate. For me, $25 is nothing; I spend it very easily. But then again, I made quite a bit from stock options and my salary is well above average. Thanks, Wes

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                        • P Paul Watson

                          Is $25 a reasonable amount of money to you? To me it is, it is not an amount I will spend on a whim. It is the equivalent of two hundred and fifty South African Rand. That is the same as 10 prime time movie tickets or 25 Big Macs. I ask because David Stone was quite amazed that I am hesitant to pay $25 for Trillian Pro. $25 which to him was spent quite easily. $25 to me which I simply won't pay for Trillian Pro, the free version does well enough. (This also brings up the question about shareware authors and how they price their goods.) For those who live in first world countries; Do you realise that $25 to most of the world is not peanuts, that it is an amount which careful thought is given to on spending? Actually it is an amount that many simply don't have. Even for a middle class white boy like me living in a reasonable third world country like South Africa $25 is a lot of money. Just curious, David Stone was quite amazed :)

                          Paul Watson
                          Bluegrass
                          Cape Town, South Africa

                          Vivek Rajan wrote (about the Matrix): I assume they are using low colors because they want faster rendering using cheaper hardware... ...Cmon - atleast use 256 colors...

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                          Ravi Bhavnani
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #23

                          That's a very interesting question.  $25 buys me:

                          • an hour's phonecall to my parents in India
                          • 8 dinners at home
                          • 2 months' supply of orange juice
                          • almost a week's worth of gasoline
                          • 83% of my pair of sturdy, comfortable and unfashionable shoes
                          • almost 2 pairs of Wrangler jeans on sale at Walmart
                          • half a month of cable internet
                          • almost 2 months' subscription to Netflix

                          Yes, I'd say $25 is a lot. But I agree with Chris. I'd spring $25 for a piece of software if it saved me time and/or sufficiently increased the quality of my work (or play). /ravi Let's put "civil" back in "civilization" Home | Articles | Freeware | Music ravib@ravib.com

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                          • P Paul Watson

                            Is $25 a reasonable amount of money to you? To me it is, it is not an amount I will spend on a whim. It is the equivalent of two hundred and fifty South African Rand. That is the same as 10 prime time movie tickets or 25 Big Macs. I ask because David Stone was quite amazed that I am hesitant to pay $25 for Trillian Pro. $25 which to him was spent quite easily. $25 to me which I simply won't pay for Trillian Pro, the free version does well enough. (This also brings up the question about shareware authors and how they price their goods.) For those who live in first world countries; Do you realise that $25 to most of the world is not peanuts, that it is an amount which careful thought is given to on spending? Actually it is an amount that many simply don't have. Even for a middle class white boy like me living in a reasonable third world country like South Africa $25 is a lot of money. Just curious, David Stone was quite amazed :)

                            Paul Watson
                            Bluegrass
                            Cape Town, South Africa

                            Vivek Rajan wrote (about the Matrix): I assume they are using low colors because they want faster rendering using cheaper hardware... ...Cmon - atleast use 256 colors...

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                            Mangesh Sardesai
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #24

                            This is not just the question for shareware. The same applies to all categories of software. $799 VS.Net would cost thousands of rupees in India where as what an average person earns is far less. Maybe this is also one of the reason for software piracy. Many of the technical books are available for much lower cost (Economy editions specifically targeted for Indian subcontinent) than their original counterparts which again cost ( Price in Dollars * Exchange Rate ). I think the software companies should adopt the similar policy for retail sales. M$ :):):):):)

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                            • P Paul Watson

                              Is $25 a reasonable amount of money to you? To me it is, it is not an amount I will spend on a whim. It is the equivalent of two hundred and fifty South African Rand. That is the same as 10 prime time movie tickets or 25 Big Macs. I ask because David Stone was quite amazed that I am hesitant to pay $25 for Trillian Pro. $25 which to him was spent quite easily. $25 to me which I simply won't pay for Trillian Pro, the free version does well enough. (This also brings up the question about shareware authors and how they price their goods.) For those who live in first world countries; Do you realise that $25 to most of the world is not peanuts, that it is an amount which careful thought is given to on spending? Actually it is an amount that many simply don't have. Even for a middle class white boy like me living in a reasonable third world country like South Africa $25 is a lot of money. Just curious, David Stone was quite amazed :)

                              Paul Watson
                              Bluegrass
                              Cape Town, South Africa

                              Vivek Rajan wrote (about the Matrix): I assume they are using low colors because they want faster rendering using cheaper hardware... ...Cmon - atleast use 256 colors...

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                              Pavel Klocek
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #25

                              Yes, it is. Not too high (12,5 BigMACs, 5 movie tickets), but to buy a software for this price, it must be something helpful. I surely would stay by the free version, if it's sufficient. Pavel Sonork 100.15206

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                              • P Paul Watson

                                Is $25 a reasonable amount of money to you? To me it is, it is not an amount I will spend on a whim. It is the equivalent of two hundred and fifty South African Rand. That is the same as 10 prime time movie tickets or 25 Big Macs. I ask because David Stone was quite amazed that I am hesitant to pay $25 for Trillian Pro. $25 which to him was spent quite easily. $25 to me which I simply won't pay for Trillian Pro, the free version does well enough. (This also brings up the question about shareware authors and how they price their goods.) For those who live in first world countries; Do you realise that $25 to most of the world is not peanuts, that it is an amount which careful thought is given to on spending? Actually it is an amount that many simply don't have. Even for a middle class white boy like me living in a reasonable third world country like South Africa $25 is a lot of money. Just curious, David Stone was quite amazed :)

                                Paul Watson
                                Bluegrass
                                Cape Town, South Africa

                                Vivek Rajan wrote (about the Matrix): I assume they are using low colors because they want faster rendering using cheaper hardware... ...Cmon - atleast use 256 colors...

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                                ColinDavies
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #26

                                25$ for me is a minor treasure in my Domestic life, However in my commercial life it's peanuts. I'm quite comfortable to go out and spend 5,000,0000 NZ$ tommorrow buying an investment property or whatever if it makes fiscal sense for my group. However I think several times before spending an extra 40$NZ (abt 25$ US) on something that will give no return. -- Maybe my case is a bit different to most others. Regardz Colin J Davies

                                *** WARNING *
                                This could be addictive
                                **The minion's version of "Catch :bob: "

                                It's a real shame that people as stupid as you can work out how to use a computer. said by Christian Graus in the Soapbox

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                                • M Mangesh Sardesai

                                  This is not just the question for shareware. The same applies to all categories of software. $799 VS.Net would cost thousands of rupees in India where as what an average person earns is far less. Maybe this is also one of the reason for software piracy. Many of the technical books are available for much lower cost (Economy editions specifically targeted for Indian subcontinent) than their original counterparts which again cost ( Price in Dollars * Exchange Rate ). I think the software companies should adopt the similar policy for retail sales. M$ :):):):):)

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                                  Tim Craig
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #27

                                  So US software companies should sell you software at a discounted rate, which means the rest of us subsidize you to compete with us at lower salaries? Hmmmmm.....

                                  1 Reply Last reply
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                                  • P Paul Watson

                                    Is $25 a reasonable amount of money to you? To me it is, it is not an amount I will spend on a whim. It is the equivalent of two hundred and fifty South African Rand. That is the same as 10 prime time movie tickets or 25 Big Macs. I ask because David Stone was quite amazed that I am hesitant to pay $25 for Trillian Pro. $25 which to him was spent quite easily. $25 to me which I simply won't pay for Trillian Pro, the free version does well enough. (This also brings up the question about shareware authors and how they price their goods.) For those who live in first world countries; Do you realise that $25 to most of the world is not peanuts, that it is an amount which careful thought is given to on spending? Actually it is an amount that many simply don't have. Even for a middle class white boy like me living in a reasonable third world country like South Africa $25 is a lot of money. Just curious, David Stone was quite amazed :)

                                    Paul Watson
                                    Bluegrass
                                    Cape Town, South Africa

                                    Vivek Rajan wrote (about the Matrix): I assume they are using low colors because they want faster rendering using cheaper hardware... ...Cmon - atleast use 256 colors...

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                                    J Offline
                                    Jorgen Sigvardsson
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #28

                                    Paul Watson wrote: That is the same as 10 prime time movie tickets or 25 Big Macs What?! 10 movies!? 25 Big Macs?? Ok, next years vacation will be in South Africa. :) -- I'm the figure head on a ship of fools

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