The Concept of the human Soul is a religious concept, which has no basis in fact, and does not exist
-
Bram van Kampen wrote:
You are forwarding the proof of existence of god, by reason of intelligent design.
Nope!!! Not even close!!! I gave you a repeatable, verifiable method for knowing if God is real or not.
Bram van Kampen wrote:
but fails in the larger picture.
There is no method or process under which creation "fails." You can't prove it wasn't created.
Bram van Kampen wrote:
Your central point is essentially that the universe cannot exist without a human existence,
Nope. But I am curious to your response about 2 things that you never answered. 1. Prove to me that you love your family. It is quite humorous when atheists start out saying they don't believe in God because there is no proof. Yet, you believe in things everyday for which you have no proof. 2. What would you accept as proof? If God showed up at your house would that be enough proof for you? If you answer honestly, I believe you'll realize that there is no proof that you would accept; therefore, making atheists the most closed minded species there is yet you think that it is your open-mindedness that has led you to atheism. The irony is hilarious.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
You seem to have a religious concept that predates me be about 200 (2000) years. I have absolutely no concept of what love for my family has to do with this debate. God does not exist, so I do not contemplate what I would do if he came to my door.
Bram van Kampen
-
You seem to have a religious concept that predates me be about 200 (2000) years. I have absolutely no concept of what love for my family has to do with this debate. God does not exist, so I do not contemplate what I would do if he came to my door.
Bram van Kampen
And since you keep dodging my questions, have a good day. ;)
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
-
Well Dylvh
Dylvh wrote:
Shall we say the same then about other things in life? Should everything be declared by one of our five senses for it to actually exist? Think of the mind (not the brain now). We can't see, feel, hear, smell or taste our mind. Yet, you can loose your mind and sit in a mental institute of some sort. What gives us our personality that makes us different one from another? Is it our brain or our heart?
Actually all we experience is declared by our senses. This is something actually addressed and put to bed by Plato, some 2000 years ago. We simply have no other means of observing the world around us, other than by our senses. Plato, and following philosophers needed something dat did de actual living, that expressed the 'Animation' of the human body, the freedom of thinking and ideas, etc. So the Soul was invented, a sort of spiritual existence that managed and operated the human body, an eternal spirit or soul. Plato knew absolutely nothing about computers, or anything like that. My thesis is, that the brain of any animal (or human) constitutes a very complicated, and poorly understood computer. Furthermore, that our consciousness and agency, in other words, our mind, are the result of programs running in this computer. If for some reason the program crashes, or, if the computer has hardware faults, one might indeed end up in a mental institution. Your physical organ of your 'Hearth' has absolutely nothing to do with this at all. Taking the choice between Hearth and Brain 'Poetically',You have two strands of thought in whatever problem you have. Both take place simultaneously in your brain. The one is, go by your feelings, the other is go by experience and evidence. That is where your great computer in your scull comes in. you will have to decide!
Bram van Kampen
I don't see how that explains the difference in our personalities. I have a lot of patience compared to my brother who has less patience than what I do. I don't work myself up to have more patience. I was born with it. Where my brother is very outspoken, I'm not. There are things about us that are the same, but still our personalities differ. To me, it is something other than our brains that makes us unique.
-
I don't see how that explains the difference in our personalities. I have a lot of patience compared to my brother who has less patience than what I do. I don't work myself up to have more patience. I was born with it. Where my brother is very outspoken, I'm not. There are things about us that are the same, but still our personalities differ. To me, it is something other than our brains that makes us unique.
Well, It does not and it cannot. Wrong Question!
Bram van Kampen
-
I don't see how that explains the difference in our personalities. I have a lot of patience compared to my brother who has less patience than what I do. I don't work myself up to have more patience. I was born with it. Where my brother is very outspoken, I'm not. There are things about us that are the same, but still our personalities differ. To me, it is something other than our brains that makes us unique.
Well, It does not and it cannot. Wrong Question! B!
Bram van Kampen
-
Shall we say the same then about other things in life? Should everything be declared by one of our five senses for it to actually exist? Think of the mind (not the brain now). We can't see, feel, hear, smell or taste our mind. Yet, you can loose your mind and sit in a mental institute of some sort. What gives us our personality that makes us different one from another? Is it our brain or our heart?
Well, the ancient greeks got on to this. They started from the view point that all experience of the world outside our body was received tru the experience via the senses. The remaining fact is, that we have no other way of interpreting our live experience, than trough our senses. You are I think trying to forward some argument for some afterlife existence, or, a higher power existing outside, and apart from us, i,e.: a God. The essential argument here is that God is a figment of human imagination. Bram
Bram van Kampen
-
Bram van Kampen wrote:
I for one am not afraid of dying. I will simply cease to exist.
That reflects my basic belief as well. But then I sometimes ask myself (and even others): If I am wrong, would be any great loss to me? Harp music for an eternity - I guess I'd be happy to avoid that. Some old fellow demanding that I surrender and kneel down, obeying him forever. Being told which sounds are forbidden to utter. Which food I cannot eat. Which partners I cannot have. Which thoughts I am not allowed to have. Which pleasures I am not allowed to have ... Sorry, you Christians: I do not find it attractive at all. Some other afterlives may be more attractive. I guess I'd prefer the Norse Valhalla to the world of that brute emperor of the Biblical afterlife!
:rose::rose:
Bram van Kampen
-
Shall we say the same then about other things in life? Should everything be declared by one of our five senses for it to actually exist? Think of the mind (not the brain now). We can't see, feel, hear, smell or taste our mind. Yet, you can loose your mind and sit in a mental institute of some sort. What gives us our personality that makes us different one from another? Is it our brain or our heart?
???:rose::rose:
Bram van Kampen
-
I don't see how that explains the difference in our personalities. I have a lot of patience compared to my brother who has less patience than what I do. I don't work myself up to have more patience. I was born with it. Where my brother is very outspoken, I'm not. There are things about us that are the same, but still our personalities differ. To me, it is something other than our brains that makes us unique.
!!:rose::rose:
Bram van Kampen
-
Bram van Kampen wrote:
Offer me the proof of the existence of God, and I will accept!
Fair enough. But first, you prove to me that you love your family or else I won't accept that you do. :-D
Bram van Kampen wrote:
you were probably brainwashed in your belief
Nope. Came to the conclusions on my own.
Bram van Kampen wrote:
You are capable of understanding Logic,
Oh no you didn't!! You can make a lot of arguments against there being a God but logic is NOT one of them. For example, let's say you go hiking in middle of the desert and are miles and miles away from anyone or anything. You come across a pizza on the ground. Are you suggesting it's more logical to assume that the elements somehow magically came together to form the pizza or is it more logical to assume someone left it there? :-\
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
Well, the books about that sort of argument was already written years ago, by Richard Dankin. (The Blind Watch maker, etc)I guess, that I would guess that the Pizza was created by some funghi. However, you entirely and totally miss the point of the argument. Humanity exists, by enormous great and unlikely fortune and coincidence! If humanity did not exist, it would not be there to ask these questions! Dinosaurs never did ( as far as we know) No God had any hand in this.
Bram van Kampen
-
Bram van Kampen wrote:
You are forwarding the proof of existence of god, by reason of intelligent design.
Nope!!! Not even close!!! I gave you a repeatable, verifiable method for knowing if God is real or not.
Bram van Kampen wrote:
but fails in the larger picture.
There is no method or process under which creation "fails." You can't prove it wasn't created.
Bram van Kampen wrote:
Your central point is essentially that the universe cannot exist without a human existence,
Nope. But I am curious to your response about 2 things that you never answered. 1. Prove to me that you love your family. It is quite humorous when atheists start out saying they don't believe in God because there is no proof. Yet, you believe in things everyday for which you have no proof. 2. What would you accept as proof? If God showed up at your house would that be enough proof for you? If you answer honestly, I believe you'll realize that there is no proof that you would accept; therefore, making atheists the most closed minded species there is yet you think that it is your open-mindedness that has led you to atheism. The irony is hilarious.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
I am really interested in your verifiable test about the existence of God. Shock the world, and bring it on! I am eagerly waiting!
Bram van Kampen
-
Well, the ancient greeks got on to this. They started from the view point that all experience of the world outside our body was received tru the experience via the senses. The remaining fact is, that we have no other way of interpreting our live experience, than trough our senses. You are I think trying to forward some argument for some afterlife existence, or, a higher power existing outside, and apart from us, i,e.: a God. The essential argument here is that God is a figment of human imagination. Bram
Bram van Kampen
I don't want to argue. I don't understand why people think that there isn't a God. The senses is something that we can't always trust. You can go blind and become deaf. Senses can also be fooled. Another CP member said that we just exist, that we evolved from animals and that we don't have a purpose. How is it possible for us to just exist? Why is the human form the last form that we evolved into. If we're evolving, then we should be evolving into something different, it's been thousands of years, and we're still in this form. Now, if we don't have a purpose, why are we living then? Why do we want to live? I look at the students that are protesting because the world is not doing enough about global warming. They want a future... they want to live. What's driving them to want to live? If we exist without any purpose, then we need to tell our children that. But I can only imagine what that will do. We'll have people that are depressed and the suicide rate will shoot through the roof. How does a plant live? I look at the trees, it's autumn here and the leaves are starting to fall off because the life of it is going into the ground before winter, but it's still hot. What's telling those trees to do that? If it didn't, the tree would die. The answers that science have doesn't always seem right to me. Again, I don't want to argue because it won't help and I'm not better than you or anyone else.
-
Well, the books about that sort of argument was already written years ago, by Richard Dankin. (The Blind Watch maker, etc)I guess, that I would guess that the Pizza was created by some funghi. However, you entirely and totally miss the point of the argument. Humanity exists, by enormous great and unlikely fortune and coincidence! If humanity did not exist, it would not be there to ask these questions! Dinosaurs never did ( as far as we know) No God had any hand in this.
Bram van Kampen
Bram van Kampen wrote:
totally miss the point
No, I understand your point. You think it all magically happened.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
-
I am really interested in your verifiable test about the existence of God. Shock the world, and bring it on! I am eagerly waiting!
Bram van Kampen
Bram van Kampen wrote:
I am really interested in your verifiable tes
I already gave it to you. Millions have done. It won't shock the world, millions already know about it.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
-
Bram van Kampen wrote:
totally miss the point
No, I understand your point. You think it all magically happened.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
No, Not Magically! Nothing ever happens by magic! You missed my central Tenet. Nature works by trial and error, with many a stumbling. Species evolved, and died out, for instance the Dinosaurs, and then, by pure chance, a great ape evolved, that over time developed brain power, and the capacity to imagine and look back, and ask questions. We are (as far as we know) the only species with the mental capacity to look back and pose the question about where we come from. In short, humanity is an accident of nature. Had we not existed, there would not have been a species to ask the question. Early men had the urge to ask these questions, but did not have the science to answer them. What's more, there is a fundamental concept in the human brain: Cause and Effect! Weather Rain, Sunshine and storms occur, as we now know, via a process that is only recently understood. These happened unannounced, upon our forefathers in a random way. Random occurrences, and a human mind based on cause and effect do not sit well together. "Someone", or Something unapproachable is causing these things to happen. That is thus a God or maybe many Gods! We then need to please this God or these Gods, in order to avert these disasters. We then get an interceding class of Druids, or Priests. That position is of course most powerful! It potentially controls tempests and hunger, when the God(s) punish the tribe, for not following the word of the God(s). or Hermes Well, there are most amazing computers sitting between the ears of your cat or dog, or, even your budgie. Animation has been a most difficult problem to investigate over the centuries. Plato took the animation of animals as a given. He assumed a Human Spirit, "The Soal" riding the beastly animal, the human body, like a horseman rides a fiery horse. This is a model very much adapted by not only Christianity, but also by Islam. We might not know the precise details of how these computers between our ears work. In my world I have no need for Gods of any kind! I am also firm in my believe that I cease to exist after I die. The Gods are temporary. Will I be judged by Baal, Jodan, or JaWeh! Appollo or Hermes! It is all balderdash
Bram van Kampen
-
No, Not Magically! Nothing ever happens by magic! You missed my central Tenet. Nature works by trial and error, with many a stumbling. Species evolved, and died out, for instance the Dinosaurs, and then, by pure chance, a great ape evolved, that over time developed brain power, and the capacity to imagine and look back, and ask questions. We are (as far as we know) the only species with the mental capacity to look back and pose the question about where we come from. In short, humanity is an accident of nature. Had we not existed, there would not have been a species to ask the question. Early men had the urge to ask these questions, but did not have the science to answer them. What's more, there is a fundamental concept in the human brain: Cause and Effect! Weather Rain, Sunshine and storms occur, as we now know, via a process that is only recently understood. These happened unannounced, upon our forefathers in a random way. Random occurrences, and a human mind based on cause and effect do not sit well together. "Someone", or Something unapproachable is causing these things to happen. That is thus a God or maybe many Gods! We then need to please this God or these Gods, in order to avert these disasters. We then get an interceding class of Druids, or Priests. That position is of course most powerful! It potentially controls tempests and hunger, when the God(s) punish the tribe, for not following the word of the God(s). or Hermes Well, there are most amazing computers sitting between the ears of your cat or dog, or, even your budgie. Animation has been a most difficult problem to investigate over the centuries. Plato took the animation of animals as a given. He assumed a Human Spirit, "The Soal" riding the beastly animal, the human body, like a horseman rides a fiery horse. This is a model very much adapted by not only Christianity, but also by Islam. We might not know the precise details of how these computers between our ears work. In my world I have no need for Gods of any kind! I am also firm in my believe that I cease to exist after I die. The Gods are temporary. Will I be judged by Baal, Jodan, or JaWeh! Appollo or Hermes! It is all balderdash
Bram van Kampen
You keep repeating yourself. I understood this position from the first reply. You are completely wrong though but clearly set in your ways and closed minded on the subject.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
-
I don't want to argue. I don't understand why people think that there isn't a God. The senses is something that we can't always trust. You can go blind and become deaf. Senses can also be fooled. Another CP member said that we just exist, that we evolved from animals and that we don't have a purpose. How is it possible for us to just exist? Why is the human form the last form that we evolved into. If we're evolving, then we should be evolving into something different, it's been thousands of years, and we're still in this form. Now, if we don't have a purpose, why are we living then? Why do we want to live? I look at the students that are protesting because the world is not doing enough about global warming. They want a future... they want to live. What's driving them to want to live? If we exist without any purpose, then we need to tell our children that. But I can only imagine what that will do. We'll have people that are depressed and the suicide rate will shoot through the roof. How does a plant live? I look at the trees, it's autumn here and the leaves are starting to fall off because the life of it is going into the ground before winter, but it's still hot. What's telling those trees to do that? If it didn't, the tree would die. The answers that science have doesn't always seem right to me. Again, I don't want to argue because it won't help and I'm not better than you or anyone else.
Well, a lot of religious fervor here. You clearly think that evolution is bonkers. The thing about God is a bit like the idea about Santa Claus. It would be great if they were to exist, unfortunately they do not! Well, in the case of the Christian God, I am glad that he (or She) does not exist. Philosophers have determined that the existence of God cannot be proved or disproved, they have also proved that If a God exists, such God cannot be known. Read the books of Richard Dankin! Well, evolution is indeed still evolving. The oldest human for which we have remains some 70000 year old are indeed different to ourselves. The process is incredibly slow, and on that scale 5000 years is nearly insignificant. Furthermore cultural concepts tend to give a stabilizing influence. Empathy in caring for the weak, will moderate the basic tenet of survival of the fittest. Humanity did not evolve from animals as we know them now. The animals as we now them now evolved alongside us. About the purpose of human life, it is none existent in the greater scheme of things in nature. Yes, all living organisms have an innate will to survive and to procreate. The simple reason is, that evolution would have killed of any organisms that did not care about these things. You touched on children demonstrating against climate change. That is by the children an expression of their will to live. More importantly, climate change is Nature's reaction to what amounts to the "Human Infestation" of the earth. The central tenet is: Humanity evolved by pure chance. That is a matter of history! (had that chance not taken place, I would not be sending this message) So, I think you have answered your own questions.
Bram van Kampen
-
You keep repeating yourself. I understood this position from the first reply. You are completely wrong though but clearly set in your ways and closed minded on the subject.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
No, You are wrong! You might have understood my position from the start (and it did not change) I am trying to convince others. No one can convince me of the existence of the human sole, or the existence of any God, christian or other ways. That means unfortunately frequently repeating the same arguments. I do not partake in social media.
Bram van Kampen
-
You keep repeating yourself. I understood this position from the first reply. You are completely wrong though but clearly set in your ways and closed minded on the subject.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
Explain please why I am wrong.
Bram van Kampen
-
Bram van Kampen wrote:
The Concept of a Soul is a medieval construct to explain the things that at the time could not be understood. I think we are in a position to know better now. I for one am not afraid of dying. I will simply cease to exist. This has nothing to do with believing, it has to do with Knowing.
These sound a hell of a lot like articles of faith to me, making you just another religious nut-job that refuses to embrace science. The distinction between faith and science is that science is, by definition, falsifiable. Faith, however, is "Knowing".
"Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor
In fact, it embraces science
Bram van Kampen