The Concept of the human Soul is a religious concept, which has no basis in fact, and does not exist
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Bram van Kampen wrote:
totally miss the point
No, I understand your point. You think it all magically happened.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
No, Not Magically! Nothing ever happens by magic! You missed my central Tenet. Nature works by trial and error, with many a stumbling. Species evolved, and died out, for instance the Dinosaurs, and then, by pure chance, a great ape evolved, that over time developed brain power, and the capacity to imagine and look back, and ask questions. We are (as far as we know) the only species with the mental capacity to look back and pose the question about where we come from. In short, humanity is an accident of nature. Had we not existed, there would not have been a species to ask the question. Early men had the urge to ask these questions, but did not have the science to answer them. What's more, there is a fundamental concept in the human brain: Cause and Effect! Weather Rain, Sunshine and storms occur, as we now know, via a process that is only recently understood. These happened unannounced, upon our forefathers in a random way. Random occurrences, and a human mind based on cause and effect do not sit well together. "Someone", or Something unapproachable is causing these things to happen. That is thus a God or maybe many Gods! We then need to please this God or these Gods, in order to avert these disasters. We then get an interceding class of Druids, or Priests. That position is of course most powerful! It potentially controls tempests and hunger, when the God(s) punish the tribe, for not following the word of the God(s). or Hermes Well, there are most amazing computers sitting between the ears of your cat or dog, or, even your budgie. Animation has been a most difficult problem to investigate over the centuries. Plato took the animation of animals as a given. He assumed a Human Spirit, "The Soal" riding the beastly animal, the human body, like a horseman rides a fiery horse. This is a model very much adapted by not only Christianity, but also by Islam. We might not know the precise details of how these computers between our ears work. In my world I have no need for Gods of any kind! I am also firm in my believe that I cease to exist after I die. The Gods are temporary. Will I be judged by Baal, Jodan, or JaWeh! Appollo or Hermes! It is all balderdash
Bram van Kampen
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No, Not Magically! Nothing ever happens by magic! You missed my central Tenet. Nature works by trial and error, with many a stumbling. Species evolved, and died out, for instance the Dinosaurs, and then, by pure chance, a great ape evolved, that over time developed brain power, and the capacity to imagine and look back, and ask questions. We are (as far as we know) the only species with the mental capacity to look back and pose the question about where we come from. In short, humanity is an accident of nature. Had we not existed, there would not have been a species to ask the question. Early men had the urge to ask these questions, but did not have the science to answer them. What's more, there is a fundamental concept in the human brain: Cause and Effect! Weather Rain, Sunshine and storms occur, as we now know, via a process that is only recently understood. These happened unannounced, upon our forefathers in a random way. Random occurrences, and a human mind based on cause and effect do not sit well together. "Someone", or Something unapproachable is causing these things to happen. That is thus a God or maybe many Gods! We then need to please this God or these Gods, in order to avert these disasters. We then get an interceding class of Druids, or Priests. That position is of course most powerful! It potentially controls tempests and hunger, when the God(s) punish the tribe, for not following the word of the God(s). or Hermes Well, there are most amazing computers sitting between the ears of your cat or dog, or, even your budgie. Animation has been a most difficult problem to investigate over the centuries. Plato took the animation of animals as a given. He assumed a Human Spirit, "The Soal" riding the beastly animal, the human body, like a horseman rides a fiery horse. This is a model very much adapted by not only Christianity, but also by Islam. We might not know the precise details of how these computers between our ears work. In my world I have no need for Gods of any kind! I am also firm in my believe that I cease to exist after I die. The Gods are temporary. Will I be judged by Baal, Jodan, or JaWeh! Appollo or Hermes! It is all balderdash
Bram van Kampen
You keep repeating yourself. I understood this position from the first reply. You are completely wrong though but clearly set in your ways and closed minded on the subject.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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I don't want to argue. I don't understand why people think that there isn't a God. The senses is something that we can't always trust. You can go blind and become deaf. Senses can also be fooled. Another CP member said that we just exist, that we evolved from animals and that we don't have a purpose. How is it possible for us to just exist? Why is the human form the last form that we evolved into. If we're evolving, then we should be evolving into something different, it's been thousands of years, and we're still in this form. Now, if we don't have a purpose, why are we living then? Why do we want to live? I look at the students that are protesting because the world is not doing enough about global warming. They want a future... they want to live. What's driving them to want to live? If we exist without any purpose, then we need to tell our children that. But I can only imagine what that will do. We'll have people that are depressed and the suicide rate will shoot through the roof. How does a plant live? I look at the trees, it's autumn here and the leaves are starting to fall off because the life of it is going into the ground before winter, but it's still hot. What's telling those trees to do that? If it didn't, the tree would die. The answers that science have doesn't always seem right to me. Again, I don't want to argue because it won't help and I'm not better than you or anyone else.
Well, a lot of religious fervor here. You clearly think that evolution is bonkers. The thing about God is a bit like the idea about Santa Claus. It would be great if they were to exist, unfortunately they do not! Well, in the case of the Christian God, I am glad that he (or She) does not exist. Philosophers have determined that the existence of God cannot be proved or disproved, they have also proved that If a God exists, such God cannot be known. Read the books of Richard Dankin! Well, evolution is indeed still evolving. The oldest human for which we have remains some 70000 year old are indeed different to ourselves. The process is incredibly slow, and on that scale 5000 years is nearly insignificant. Furthermore cultural concepts tend to give a stabilizing influence. Empathy in caring for the weak, will moderate the basic tenet of survival of the fittest. Humanity did not evolve from animals as we know them now. The animals as we now them now evolved alongside us. About the purpose of human life, it is none existent in the greater scheme of things in nature. Yes, all living organisms have an innate will to survive and to procreate. The simple reason is, that evolution would have killed of any organisms that did not care about these things. You touched on children demonstrating against climate change. That is by the children an expression of their will to live. More importantly, climate change is Nature's reaction to what amounts to the "Human Infestation" of the earth. The central tenet is: Humanity evolved by pure chance. That is a matter of history! (had that chance not taken place, I would not be sending this message) So, I think you have answered your own questions.
Bram van Kampen
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You keep repeating yourself. I understood this position from the first reply. You are completely wrong though but clearly set in your ways and closed minded on the subject.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
No, You are wrong! You might have understood my position from the start (and it did not change) I am trying to convince others. No one can convince me of the existence of the human sole, or the existence of any God, christian or other ways. That means unfortunately frequently repeating the same arguments. I do not partake in social media.
Bram van Kampen
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You keep repeating yourself. I understood this position from the first reply. You are completely wrong though but clearly set in your ways and closed minded on the subject.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
Explain please why I am wrong.
Bram van Kampen
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Bram van Kampen wrote:
The Concept of a Soul is a medieval construct to explain the things that at the time could not be understood. I think we are in a position to know better now. I for one am not afraid of dying. I will simply cease to exist. This has nothing to do with believing, it has to do with Knowing.
These sound a hell of a lot like articles of faith to me, making you just another religious nut-job that refuses to embrace science. The distinction between faith and science is that science is, by definition, falsifiable. Faith, however, is "Knowing".
"Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor
In fact, it embraces science
Bram van Kampen
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Bram van Kampen wrote:
I for one am not afraid of dying. I will simply cease to exist.
That reflects my basic belief as well. But then I sometimes ask myself (and even others): If I am wrong, would be any great loss to me? Harp music for an eternity - I guess I'd be happy to avoid that. Some old fellow demanding that I surrender and kneel down, obeying him forever. Being told which sounds are forbidden to utter. Which food I cannot eat. Which partners I cannot have. Which thoughts I am not allowed to have. Which pleasures I am not allowed to have ... Sorry, you Christians: I do not find it attractive at all. Some other afterlives may be more attractive. I guess I'd prefer the Norse Valhalla to the world of that brute emperor of the Biblical afterlife!
I fully agree, Those old norse heavens seem far more fun than those judea christian ones, which include a court of judgement! Unfortunately, all gods and concepts of life after death are impossible concepts.
Bram van Kampen
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Bram van Kampen wrote:
I for one am not afraid of dying. I will simply cease to exist.
That reflects my basic belief as well. But then I sometimes ask myself (and even others): If I am wrong, would be any great loss to me? Harp music for an eternity - I guess I'd be happy to avoid that. Some old fellow demanding that I surrender and kneel down, obeying him forever. Being told which sounds are forbidden to utter. Which food I cannot eat. Which partners I cannot have. Which thoughts I am not allowed to have. Which pleasures I am not allowed to have ... Sorry, you Christians: I do not find it attractive at all. Some other afterlives may be more attractive. I guess I'd prefer the Norse Valhalla to the world of that brute emperor of the Biblical afterlife!
NO, I can assure you, when you die you will disappear, like snow from a ditch. You will not be aware that you die!
Bram van Kampen
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No, You are wrong! You might have understood my position from the start (and it did not change) I am trying to convince others. No one can convince me of the existence of the human sole, or the existence of any God, christian or other ways. That means unfortunately frequently repeating the same arguments. I do not partake in social media.
Bram van Kampen
Bram van Kampen wrote:
No one can convince me of the existence of the human sole, or the existence of any God, christian or other ways
Yes, as I already pointed out, this makes you the most closed minded person and therefore a waste of time to deal with.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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Explain please why I am wrong.
Bram van Kampen
Bram van Kampen wrote:
Explain please why I am wrong.
Because you said 2+2 = 5. What do you mean "why you are wrong?" You are wrong because you said wrong things. That's why. And now for the third time, you are too closed minded so good day.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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Bram van Kampen wrote:
No one can convince me of the existence of the human sole, or the existence of any God, christian or other ways
Yes, as I already pointed out, this makes you the most closed minded person and therefore a waste of time to deal with.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
Well, Then avoid the discussion, and stop cluttering this discussion with religious nonsense. I am approaching the age of 70 years! I have been and am an atheist and humanist since 1970. If you want to learn from me, you are welcome to ask. I will not be tutored into the admittance of the existence of any Gods, be it Zeus Baal , or YaWeh! (or Odan Donar, Jupiter, make a list) To me the whole idea of any religion at al is fraud on a massive scale! I call you deluded (by your Parents, not your fault) by being introduced to all that nonsense at a young and impressionable age.
Bram van Kampen
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Bram van Kampen wrote:
Explain please why I am wrong.
Because you said 2+2 = 5. What do you mean "why you are wrong?" You are wrong because you said wrong things. That's why. And now for the third time, you are too closed minded so good day.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
I find that a refreshing start for a discussion. Apparently I said somewhere 2+2=5! I do not recall where! Please Quote!
Bram van Kampen
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Bram van Kampen wrote:
Such god may or may not exist, but, such Godly existence is essentially immaterial.
Well hell, that's actually an Agnostic mindset, good job!
Bram van Kampen wrote:
I see your own self doubt in your argument. I can glean that at the one hand, logically cannot accept the existence of a God, but, at the otherhand, cannot think about a world without a God
Bah, and there it goes. No, the concept of god is stupid, however claiming to "know" that there is or isn't some sort of metaphysical existence is equally stupid.
Bram van Kampen wrote:
I can see that you think that Justice is delivered by God Alone.
ROFlMAO
Bram van Kampen wrote:
Human Mankind has in its innate Psyche, a sense of Good and Bad, Right or Wrong.
Millennia of philosophy disagree.
"Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor
Well, Thousands of years of philosophers may agree that human mankind have no sense of right or wrong. However, biologists have done many experiments, to show that such idea exists in all primates. It even exists in our pet dogs and cats! I simply do not care about ancient views of the world as seen by ancient philosophers, nor ancient books such as the christian bible, or, say the koran. These sources did the best at their time. We know better now!
Bram van Kampen
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Well, Thousands of years of philosophers may agree that human mankind have no sense of right or wrong. However, biologists have done many experiments, to show that such idea exists in all primates. It even exists in our pet dogs and cats! I simply do not care about ancient views of the world as seen by ancient philosophers, nor ancient books such as the christian bible, or, say the koran. These sources did the best at their time. We know better now!
Bram van Kampen
The same studies show that primates and other animals do have social structures in much the same way we do, which makes sense as social interaction is a survival trait. It also follows that, as morality is a social construct, it's not surprising that it can be found in animals; in fact the only argument against that is the old Judaeo-Christian row that animals are made for people's use and whatnot. But, back on topic: Atheism is religion. It requires absolute faith that there is no metaphysical reality. If you embrace logic and science, you understand that the operating principles of both operate on the fundamental concept that you prove positives, and that while a positive that is proved can invalidate a negative, you cannot directly prove a negative. There must be a positive proof. For instance, Flat Earth theory is ridiculous not (only) because it's stupid, but because it is invalidated by the proven Law of Gravity. To date, nothing has been proven that invalidates the concept of the metaphysical. More to the point, I would suggest that there may be no way to do so, in the same way that there is no way to invalidate any work of imagination. The fact of the matter is that until a theory covering the fundamental creation of something from nothing can be established, no creation mythology can be completely invalidated.
"Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor
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The same studies show that primates and other animals do have social structures in much the same way we do, which makes sense as social interaction is a survival trait. It also follows that, as morality is a social construct, it's not surprising that it can be found in animals; in fact the only argument against that is the old Judaeo-Christian row that animals are made for people's use and whatnot. But, back on topic: Atheism is religion. It requires absolute faith that there is no metaphysical reality. If you embrace logic and science, you understand that the operating principles of both operate on the fundamental concept that you prove positives, and that while a positive that is proved can invalidate a negative, you cannot directly prove a negative. There must be a positive proof. For instance, Flat Earth theory is ridiculous not (only) because it's stupid, but because it is invalidated by the proven Law of Gravity. To date, nothing has been proven that invalidates the concept of the metaphysical. More to the point, I would suggest that there may be no way to do so, in the same way that there is no way to invalidate any work of imagination. The fact of the matter is that until a theory covering the fundamental creation of something from nothing can be established, no creation mythology can be completely invalidated.
"Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor
Well, I see your point, I accept from your point of view "atheism" is a religion! As long as I can practice freely I will be happy.
Bram van Kampen