Call for a Professional Programmers' Association
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Programming is the most intellectually stimulating activity that I have ever performed. It is not so much the making of things from nothing as it is the satisfaction that comes when I have created a thing of intellectual beauty. To me programming is a combination of art and science. And, in programming, technical competency goes hand in hand with technical currency. So that you understand from whence I come I would like to introduce you to what I have done during my career, and what I continue to do in a more relaxed environment: I wrote stand alone multi-threaded client/server systems; graphics software and effective user interfaces to complex scientific and engineering applications; real-time and embedded system software and firmware; and communications system software. I continue to be fluent in multiple computer programming languages (e.g., C#, C, Ada, FORTRAN, COBOL, and Pascal). I have programmed within Windows, UNIX, Linux, VxWorks, as well as others too old and long ago to mention. What bothers me about programming today is the number of people who claim to be programmers but who are not. These wannabes claim to be programmers but when you look at a wannabe's accomplishments, they usually include applications that are written in a macro language (such as VBA) and that are usually trivial and unfocused. We need a word to describe this class of people who are intelligent enough to pretend to program without actually programming. In many other career paths, they would be called apprentices. Let me define what I did in unambiguous terms. I was a professional production programmer who wrote computer software for money paid by someone who would probably not use the software. I firmly believe that programmers should be held accountable for their mistakes (witness the Boeing 737 Max disasters). I am convinced that the only solution to this problem is the certification of programmers by a vendor-independent organization. Although Code Project has indicated that it is opposed to such a certification organization, I believe that the arguments offered were specious. My question is simply "Doesn't the programmer who wrote the software that caused some type of catastrophe share the responsibility for the disaster?" It is for this reason that certification is required. Once such an organization is in place, companies that do not wish to share the blame for a software based disaster can hire a certified professional. The certified professional should then use certified journeymen and certified apprentices to d
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Programming is the most intellectually stimulating activity that I have ever performed. It is not so much the making of things from nothing as it is the satisfaction that comes when I have created a thing of intellectual beauty. To me programming is a combination of art and science. And, in programming, technical competency goes hand in hand with technical currency. So that you understand from whence I come I would like to introduce you to what I have done during my career, and what I continue to do in a more relaxed environment: I wrote stand alone multi-threaded client/server systems; graphics software and effective user interfaces to complex scientific and engineering applications; real-time and embedded system software and firmware; and communications system software. I continue to be fluent in multiple computer programming languages (e.g., C#, C, Ada, FORTRAN, COBOL, and Pascal). I have programmed within Windows, UNIX, Linux, VxWorks, as well as others too old and long ago to mention. What bothers me about programming today is the number of people who claim to be programmers but who are not. These wannabes claim to be programmers but when you look at a wannabe's accomplishments, they usually include applications that are written in a macro language (such as VBA) and that are usually trivial and unfocused. We need a word to describe this class of people who are intelligent enough to pretend to program without actually programming. In many other career paths, they would be called apprentices. Let me define what I did in unambiguous terms. I was a professional production programmer who wrote computer software for money paid by someone who would probably not use the software. I firmly believe that programmers should be held accountable for their mistakes (witness the Boeing 737 Max disasters). I am convinced that the only solution to this problem is the certification of programmers by a vendor-independent organization. Although Code Project has indicated that it is opposed to such a certification organization, I believe that the arguments offered were specious. My question is simply "Doesn't the programmer who wrote the software that caused some type of catastrophe share the responsibility for the disaster?" It is for this reason that certification is required. Once such an organization is in place, companies that do not wish to share the blame for a software based disaster can hire a certified professional. The certified professional should then use certified journeymen and certified apprentices to d
gggustafson wrote:
I believe that it's time to organize a programmers' association that can provide certification
We have schools for that. Since their papers aren't very convincing anymore, how would you prevent that problem from happening in another institute?
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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gggustafson wrote:
I believe that it's time to organize a programmers' association that can provide certification
We have schools for that. Since their papers aren't very convincing anymore, how would you prevent that problem from happening in another institute?
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
I know of no school that will provide any of the benefits that I included. Regards,
Gus Gustafson
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I know of no school that will provide any of the benefits that I included. Regards,
Gus Gustafson
It provides certification and guarantees a certain level of familiarity with the subject. Accountability is not something that should be in hands of someone else outside of the law*. The rest reads like a workers' union. --edit *) the software was there to cover up an existing problem. So who is responsible? Hundreds Of 737 Max Pilots Sue Boeing Over 'Unprecedented Cover-Up" | Zero Hedge[^]
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Programming is the most intellectually stimulating activity that I have ever performed. It is not so much the making of things from nothing as it is the satisfaction that comes when I have created a thing of intellectual beauty. To me programming is a combination of art and science. And, in programming, technical competency goes hand in hand with technical currency. So that you understand from whence I come I would like to introduce you to what I have done during my career, and what I continue to do in a more relaxed environment: I wrote stand alone multi-threaded client/server systems; graphics software and effective user interfaces to complex scientific and engineering applications; real-time and embedded system software and firmware; and communications system software. I continue to be fluent in multiple computer programming languages (e.g., C#, C, Ada, FORTRAN, COBOL, and Pascal). I have programmed within Windows, UNIX, Linux, VxWorks, as well as others too old and long ago to mention. What bothers me about programming today is the number of people who claim to be programmers but who are not. These wannabes claim to be programmers but when you look at a wannabe's accomplishments, they usually include applications that are written in a macro language (such as VBA) and that are usually trivial and unfocused. We need a word to describe this class of people who are intelligent enough to pretend to program without actually programming. In many other career paths, they would be called apprentices. Let me define what I did in unambiguous terms. I was a professional production programmer who wrote computer software for money paid by someone who would probably not use the software. I firmly believe that programmers should be held accountable for their mistakes (witness the Boeing 737 Max disasters). I am convinced that the only solution to this problem is the certification of programmers by a vendor-independent organization. Although Code Project has indicated that it is opposed to such a certification organization, I believe that the arguments offered were specious. My question is simply "Doesn't the programmer who wrote the software that caused some type of catastrophe share the responsibility for the disaster?" It is for this reason that certification is required. Once such an organization is in place, companies that do not wish to share the blame for a software based disaster can hire a certified professional. The certified professional should then use certified journeymen and certified apprentices to d
Why not push back a little and outlaw bad languages that allow software to be easily, yet poorly constructed? Go after the root issue -- the devs who create bad languages and require them to provide languages in which the dev cannot create bad code. :rolleyes: That's a smaller set to deal with and more likely to happen. In the good future, JavaScript will be illegal. :laugh: All Python Purveyors will be Imprisoned! :laugh:
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Programming is the most intellectually stimulating activity that I have ever performed. It is not so much the making of things from nothing as it is the satisfaction that comes when I have created a thing of intellectual beauty. To me programming is a combination of art and science. And, in programming, technical competency goes hand in hand with technical currency. So that you understand from whence I come I would like to introduce you to what I have done during my career, and what I continue to do in a more relaxed environment: I wrote stand alone multi-threaded client/server systems; graphics software and effective user interfaces to complex scientific and engineering applications; real-time and embedded system software and firmware; and communications system software. I continue to be fluent in multiple computer programming languages (e.g., C#, C, Ada, FORTRAN, COBOL, and Pascal). I have programmed within Windows, UNIX, Linux, VxWorks, as well as others too old and long ago to mention. What bothers me about programming today is the number of people who claim to be programmers but who are not. These wannabes claim to be programmers but when you look at a wannabe's accomplishments, they usually include applications that are written in a macro language (such as VBA) and that are usually trivial and unfocused. We need a word to describe this class of people who are intelligent enough to pretend to program without actually programming. In many other career paths, they would be called apprentices. Let me define what I did in unambiguous terms. I was a professional production programmer who wrote computer software for money paid by someone who would probably not use the software. I firmly believe that programmers should be held accountable for their mistakes (witness the Boeing 737 Max disasters). I am convinced that the only solution to this problem is the certification of programmers by a vendor-independent organization. Although Code Project has indicated that it is opposed to such a certification organization, I believe that the arguments offered were specious. My question is simply "Doesn't the programmer who wrote the software that caused some type of catastrophe share the responsibility for the disaster?" It is for this reason that certification is required. Once such an organization is in place, companies that do not wish to share the blame for a software based disaster can hire a certified professional. The certified professional should then use certified journeymen and certified apprentices to d
I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
It provides certification and guarantees a certain level of familiarity with the subject. Accountability is not something that should be in hands of someone else outside of the law*. The rest reads like a workers' union. --edit *) the software was there to cover up an existing problem. So who is responsible? Hundreds Of 737 Max Pilots Sue Boeing Over 'Unprecedented Cover-Up" | Zero Hedge[^]
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
Do you actually feel that trade unions are bad?
Gus Gustafson
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It provides certification and guarantees a certain level of familiarity with the subject. Accountability is not something that should be in hands of someone else outside of the law*. The rest reads like a workers' union. --edit *) the software was there to cover up an existing problem. So who is responsible? Hundreds Of 737 Max Pilots Sue Boeing Over 'Unprecedented Cover-Up" | Zero Hedge[^]
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
Certifications are a scam that only benefits the people that are charging money for them. Anyone can get one. Like a college diploma. Your cited example of the 737 Max problem was NOT the fault of the programmers. They wrote the code to the specs, and Boeing knew IN ADVANCE that there might be a problem with their specs. They even had a workaround for pilots to perform in the event a problem cropped up. Boeing management's fault, not the coders.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
Do you actually feel that trade unions are bad?
Gus Gustafson
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Certifications are a scam that only benefits the people that are charging money for them. Anyone can get one. Like a college diploma. Your cited example of the 737 Max problem was NOT the fault of the programmers. They wrote the code to the specs, and Boeing knew IN ADVANCE that there might be a problem with their specs. They even had a workaround for pilots to perform in the event a problem cropped up. Boeing management's fault, not the coders.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013#realJSOP wrote:
Certifications are a scam that only benefits the people that are charging money for them. Anyone can get one. Like a college diploma.
You can get your Masters degree :rolleyes:
#realJSOP wrote:
Your cited example of the 737 Max problem was NOT the fault of the programmers. They wrote the code to the specs, and Boeing knew IN ADVANCE that there might be a problem with their specs. They even had a workaround for pilots to perform in the event a problem cropped up. Boeing management's fault, not the coders.
Read the text I linked. It's a patch to work around a hardware-problem. Pretty sure management did a risc/reward analysis ;P
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Why not push back a little and outlaw bad languages that allow software to be easily, yet poorly constructed? Go after the root issue -- the devs who create bad languages and require them to provide languages in which the dev cannot create bad code. :rolleyes: That's a smaller set to deal with and more likely to happen. In the good future, JavaScript will be illegal. :laugh: All Python Purveyors will be Imprisoned! :laugh:
I mentioned Microsoft. The problem that I have with MS is the continuous update of the C# language. When I was a member of the ANS X3J9 technical committee (Pascal) we were limited to a language update every five years. Most developers are not in a position to dictate language standards. Nor are they usually listened to by large companies. The problem is really systemic to the programming community - except we don't have a programming community!
Gus Gustafson
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I mentioned Microsoft. The problem that I have with MS is the continuous update of the C# language. When I was a member of the ANS X3J9 technical committee (Pascal) we were limited to a language update every five years. Most developers are not in a position to dictate language standards. Nor are they usually listened to by large companies. The problem is really systemic to the programming community - except we don't have a programming community!
Gus Gustafson
gggustafson wrote:
. When I was a member of the ANS X3J9 technical committee (Pascal) we were limited to a language update every five years.
And back then that worked because there wasn't as often a change in the industry. Now, this industry moves much faster and needs updates much more often.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013Me either. I wouldn't join an organization that would have you as a member. :laugh:
If you can keep your head while those about you are losing theirs, perhaps you don't understand the situation.
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I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
I mentioned Microsoft. The problem that I have with MS is the continuous update of the C# language. When I was a member of the ANS X3J9 technical committee (Pascal) we were limited to a language update every five years. Most developers are not in a position to dictate language standards. Nor are they usually listened to by large companies. The problem is really systemic to the programming community - except we don't have a programming community!
Gus Gustafson
gggustafson wrote:
The problem is really systemic to the programming community
We are the problem _and_ the solution. :rolleyes:
gggustafson wrote:
except we don't have a programming community!
Very true. it's the wild, wild west out there a lot. I mean just read a couple of StackOverflow answers and you'll know that no one agrees on anything. :laugh: Well, except that everyone agrees that every dev is disagreeable. :laugh:
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Programming is the most intellectually stimulating activity that I have ever performed. It is not so much the making of things from nothing as it is the satisfaction that comes when I have created a thing of intellectual beauty. To me programming is a combination of art and science. And, in programming, technical competency goes hand in hand with technical currency. So that you understand from whence I come I would like to introduce you to what I have done during my career, and what I continue to do in a more relaxed environment: I wrote stand alone multi-threaded client/server systems; graphics software and effective user interfaces to complex scientific and engineering applications; real-time and embedded system software and firmware; and communications system software. I continue to be fluent in multiple computer programming languages (e.g., C#, C, Ada, FORTRAN, COBOL, and Pascal). I have programmed within Windows, UNIX, Linux, VxWorks, as well as others too old and long ago to mention. What bothers me about programming today is the number of people who claim to be programmers but who are not. These wannabes claim to be programmers but when you look at a wannabe's accomplishments, they usually include applications that are written in a macro language (such as VBA) and that are usually trivial and unfocused. We need a word to describe this class of people who are intelligent enough to pretend to program without actually programming. In many other career paths, they would be called apprentices. Let me define what I did in unambiguous terms. I was a professional production programmer who wrote computer software for money paid by someone who would probably not use the software. I firmly believe that programmers should be held accountable for their mistakes (witness the Boeing 737 Max disasters). I am convinced that the only solution to this problem is the certification of programmers by a vendor-independent organization. Although Code Project has indicated that it is opposed to such a certification organization, I believe that the arguments offered were specious. My question is simply "Doesn't the programmer who wrote the software that caused some type of catastrophe share the responsibility for the disaster?" It is for this reason that certification is required. Once such an organization is in place, companies that do not wish to share the blame for a software based disaster can hire a certified professional. The certified professional should then use certified journeymen and certified apprentices to d
There are programmers/engineering professional associations (something like the IEEE or ACM). A lot of states/countries have professional organizations, mostly engineering, that oversees the profession, including programming.
I'd rather be phishing!
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Me either. I wouldn't join an organization that would have you as a member. :laugh:
If you can keep your head while those about you are losing theirs, perhaps you don't understand the situation.
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After discharge from the service, I didn't join anything. Not even the family at the dinner table. :)
If you can keep your head while those about you are losing theirs, perhaps you don't understand the situation.
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Programming is the most intellectually stimulating activity that I have ever performed. It is not so much the making of things from nothing as it is the satisfaction that comes when I have created a thing of intellectual beauty. To me programming is a combination of art and science. And, in programming, technical competency goes hand in hand with technical currency. So that you understand from whence I come I would like to introduce you to what I have done during my career, and what I continue to do in a more relaxed environment: I wrote stand alone multi-threaded client/server systems; graphics software and effective user interfaces to complex scientific and engineering applications; real-time and embedded system software and firmware; and communications system software. I continue to be fluent in multiple computer programming languages (e.g., C#, C, Ada, FORTRAN, COBOL, and Pascal). I have programmed within Windows, UNIX, Linux, VxWorks, as well as others too old and long ago to mention. What bothers me about programming today is the number of people who claim to be programmers but who are not. These wannabes claim to be programmers but when you look at a wannabe's accomplishments, they usually include applications that are written in a macro language (such as VBA) and that are usually trivial and unfocused. We need a word to describe this class of people who are intelligent enough to pretend to program without actually programming. In many other career paths, they would be called apprentices. Let me define what I did in unambiguous terms. I was a professional production programmer who wrote computer software for money paid by someone who would probably not use the software. I firmly believe that programmers should be held accountable for their mistakes (witness the Boeing 737 Max disasters). I am convinced that the only solution to this problem is the certification of programmers by a vendor-independent organization. Although Code Project has indicated that it is opposed to such a certification organization, I believe that the arguments offered were specious. My question is simply "Doesn't the programmer who wrote the software that caused some type of catastrophe share the responsibility for the disaster?" It is for this reason that certification is required. Once such an organization is in place, companies that do not wish to share the blame for a software based disaster can hire a certified professional. The certified professional should then use certified journeymen and certified apprentices to d
The problem is ... defining a "professional programmer", I think. I class myself as "professional" - but I'm sure many would disagree because I write code with an eye to specification changes and maintenance rather than "clever code". And many that I'd class as unprofessional* would disagree because "their code works" (despite it being assembled from bits found on Youtube and SO it compiles, and that counts as working as far as some are concerned). Add in JSOP's fun and games with required certification recently and the prospects get remote because he isn't the only one who is going to squawk about the waste of time spent getting a piece of paper every year or two that says "I really do know what I am doing". Particularly when the current bits of paper just say "I can pass an exam in this". When you also think that pretty much every country on the planet is pushing the young into software regardless of inclination, ability or (in extreme cases) active brain cells it gets even harder to set up a good association. It'll come - eventually, and over a lot of shouting - when it becomes obvious that the whole world relies on software and the current crop is woefully poor quality. But just like doctors, pharmacists, teachers, et al, it's going to take a long time because the bad developers either don't realise they are poor, or they don't want to be found out. * Third try: the first two descriptions were obscene
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640 Never throw anything away, Griff Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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After discharge from the service, I didn't join anything. Not even the family at the dinner table. :)
If you can keep your head while those about you are losing theirs, perhaps you don't understand the situation.
