Call for a Professional Programmers' Association
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I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013Me either. I wouldn't join an organization that would have you as a member. :laugh:
If you can keep your head while those about you are losing theirs, perhaps you don't understand the situation.
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I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
I mentioned Microsoft. The problem that I have with MS is the continuous update of the C# language. When I was a member of the ANS X3J9 technical committee (Pascal) we were limited to a language update every five years. Most developers are not in a position to dictate language standards. Nor are they usually listened to by large companies. The problem is really systemic to the programming community - except we don't have a programming community!
Gus Gustafson
gggustafson wrote:
The problem is really systemic to the programming community
We are the problem _and_ the solution. :rolleyes:
gggustafson wrote:
except we don't have a programming community!
Very true. it's the wild, wild west out there a lot. I mean just read a couple of StackOverflow answers and you'll know that no one agrees on anything. :laugh: Well, except that everyone agrees that every dev is disagreeable. :laugh:
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Programming is the most intellectually stimulating activity that I have ever performed. It is not so much the making of things from nothing as it is the satisfaction that comes when I have created a thing of intellectual beauty. To me programming is a combination of art and science. And, in programming, technical competency goes hand in hand with technical currency. So that you understand from whence I come I would like to introduce you to what I have done during my career, and what I continue to do in a more relaxed environment: I wrote stand alone multi-threaded client/server systems; graphics software and effective user interfaces to complex scientific and engineering applications; real-time and embedded system software and firmware; and communications system software. I continue to be fluent in multiple computer programming languages (e.g., C#, C, Ada, FORTRAN, COBOL, and Pascal). I have programmed within Windows, UNIX, Linux, VxWorks, as well as others too old and long ago to mention. What bothers me about programming today is the number of people who claim to be programmers but who are not. These wannabes claim to be programmers but when you look at a wannabe's accomplishments, they usually include applications that are written in a macro language (such as VBA) and that are usually trivial and unfocused. We need a word to describe this class of people who are intelligent enough to pretend to program without actually programming. In many other career paths, they would be called apprentices. Let me define what I did in unambiguous terms. I was a professional production programmer who wrote computer software for money paid by someone who would probably not use the software. I firmly believe that programmers should be held accountable for their mistakes (witness the Boeing 737 Max disasters). I am convinced that the only solution to this problem is the certification of programmers by a vendor-independent organization. Although Code Project has indicated that it is opposed to such a certification organization, I believe that the arguments offered were specious. My question is simply "Doesn't the programmer who wrote the software that caused some type of catastrophe share the responsibility for the disaster?" It is for this reason that certification is required. Once such an organization is in place, companies that do not wish to share the blame for a software based disaster can hire a certified professional. The certified professional should then use certified journeymen and certified apprentices to d
There are programmers/engineering professional associations (something like the IEEE or ACM). A lot of states/countries have professional organizations, mostly engineering, that oversees the profession, including programming.
I'd rather be phishing!
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Me either. I wouldn't join an organization that would have you as a member. :laugh:
If you can keep your head while those about you are losing theirs, perhaps you don't understand the situation.
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After discharge from the service, I didn't join anything. Not even the family at the dinner table. :)
If you can keep your head while those about you are losing theirs, perhaps you don't understand the situation.
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Programming is the most intellectually stimulating activity that I have ever performed. It is not so much the making of things from nothing as it is the satisfaction that comes when I have created a thing of intellectual beauty. To me programming is a combination of art and science. And, in programming, technical competency goes hand in hand with technical currency. So that you understand from whence I come I would like to introduce you to what I have done during my career, and what I continue to do in a more relaxed environment: I wrote stand alone multi-threaded client/server systems; graphics software and effective user interfaces to complex scientific and engineering applications; real-time and embedded system software and firmware; and communications system software. I continue to be fluent in multiple computer programming languages (e.g., C#, C, Ada, FORTRAN, COBOL, and Pascal). I have programmed within Windows, UNIX, Linux, VxWorks, as well as others too old and long ago to mention. What bothers me about programming today is the number of people who claim to be programmers but who are not. These wannabes claim to be programmers but when you look at a wannabe's accomplishments, they usually include applications that are written in a macro language (such as VBA) and that are usually trivial and unfocused. We need a word to describe this class of people who are intelligent enough to pretend to program without actually programming. In many other career paths, they would be called apprentices. Let me define what I did in unambiguous terms. I was a professional production programmer who wrote computer software for money paid by someone who would probably not use the software. I firmly believe that programmers should be held accountable for their mistakes (witness the Boeing 737 Max disasters). I am convinced that the only solution to this problem is the certification of programmers by a vendor-independent organization. Although Code Project has indicated that it is opposed to such a certification organization, I believe that the arguments offered were specious. My question is simply "Doesn't the programmer who wrote the software that caused some type of catastrophe share the responsibility for the disaster?" It is for this reason that certification is required. Once such an organization is in place, companies that do not wish to share the blame for a software based disaster can hire a certified professional. The certified professional should then use certified journeymen and certified apprentices to d
The problem is ... defining a "professional programmer", I think. I class myself as "professional" - but I'm sure many would disagree because I write code with an eye to specification changes and maintenance rather than "clever code". And many that I'd class as unprofessional* would disagree because "their code works" (despite it being assembled from bits found on Youtube and SO it compiles, and that counts as working as far as some are concerned). Add in JSOP's fun and games with required certification recently and the prospects get remote because he isn't the only one who is going to squawk about the waste of time spent getting a piece of paper every year or two that says "I really do know what I am doing". Particularly when the current bits of paper just say "I can pass an exam in this". When you also think that pretty much every country on the planet is pushing the young into software regardless of inclination, ability or (in extreme cases) active brain cells it gets even harder to set up a good association. It'll come - eventually, and over a lot of shouting - when it becomes obvious that the whole world relies on software and the current crop is woefully poor quality. But just like doctors, pharmacists, teachers, et al, it's going to take a long time because the bad developers either don't realise they are poor, or they don't want to be found out. * Third try: the first two descriptions were obscene
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640 Never throw anything away, Griff Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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After discharge from the service, I didn't join anything. Not even the family at the dinner table. :)
If you can keep your head while those about you are losing theirs, perhaps you don't understand the situation.
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There are programmers/engineering professional associations (something like the IEEE or ACM). A lot of states/countries have professional organizations, mostly engineering, that oversees the profession, including programming.
I'd rather be phishing!
Neither the IEEE nor ACM provide the services I suggest to production software developers. The former is primarily hardware; the latter is primarily academia. I have belonged to both.
Gus Gustafson
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gggustafson wrote:
. When I was a member of the ANS X3J9 technical committee (Pascal) we were limited to a language update every five years.
And back then that worked because there wasn't as often a change in the industry. Now, this industry moves much faster and needs updates much more often.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
During my 50+ year career, I have been employed by 16 companies, each for varying periods of time. At the end of it all, guess how much of a retirement fund that I have - $0. Guess how much insurance I have - $0. Basically, I have no benefits that accrued over the 50+ years. Nothing was done illegally. In large part this situation was caused as a result of my decisions. But, when you're 34, you seldom have the wisdom that you have when you are 60. The other side of the problem was that in 2 cases, my salary was significantly higher with recent to that of recent graduates. I believe that a professional organization would have protected me against myself.
Gus Gustafson
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#realJSOP wrote:
Certifications are a scam that only benefits the people that are charging money for them. Anyone can get one. Like a college diploma.
You can get your Masters degree :rolleyes:
#realJSOP wrote:
Your cited example of the 737 Max problem was NOT the fault of the programmers. They wrote the code to the specs, and Boeing knew IN ADVANCE that there might be a problem with their specs. They even had a workaround for pilots to perform in the event a problem cropped up. Boeing management's fault, not the coders.
Read the text I linked. It's a patch to work around a hardware-problem. Pretty sure management did a risc/reward analysis ;P
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
In case you missed it: a deeper look - [How the Boeing 737 Max Disaster Looks to a Software Developer - IEEE Spectrum](https://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/aviation/how-the-boeing-737-max-disaster-looks-to-a-software-developer)
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In case you missed it: a deeper look - [How the Boeing 737 Max Disaster Looks to a Software Developer - IEEE Spectrum](https://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/aviation/how-the-boeing-737-max-disaster-looks-to-a-software-developer)
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Programming is the most intellectually stimulating activity that I have ever performed. It is not so much the making of things from nothing as it is the satisfaction that comes when I have created a thing of intellectual beauty. To me programming is a combination of art and science. And, in programming, technical competency goes hand in hand with technical currency. So that you understand from whence I come I would like to introduce you to what I have done during my career, and what I continue to do in a more relaxed environment: I wrote stand alone multi-threaded client/server systems; graphics software and effective user interfaces to complex scientific and engineering applications; real-time and embedded system software and firmware; and communications system software. I continue to be fluent in multiple computer programming languages (e.g., C#, C, Ada, FORTRAN, COBOL, and Pascal). I have programmed within Windows, UNIX, Linux, VxWorks, as well as others too old and long ago to mention. What bothers me about programming today is the number of people who claim to be programmers but who are not. These wannabes claim to be programmers but when you look at a wannabe's accomplishments, they usually include applications that are written in a macro language (such as VBA) and that are usually trivial and unfocused. We need a word to describe this class of people who are intelligent enough to pretend to program without actually programming. In many other career paths, they would be called apprentices. Let me define what I did in unambiguous terms. I was a professional production programmer who wrote computer software for money paid by someone who would probably not use the software. I firmly believe that programmers should be held accountable for their mistakes (witness the Boeing 737 Max disasters). I am convinced that the only solution to this problem is the certification of programmers by a vendor-independent organization. Although Code Project has indicated that it is opposed to such a certification organization, I believe that the arguments offered were specious. My question is simply "Doesn't the programmer who wrote the software that caused some type of catastrophe share the responsibility for the disaster?" It is for this reason that certification is required. Once such an organization is in place, companies that do not wish to share the blame for a software based disaster can hire a certified professional. The certified professional should then use certified journeymen and certified apprentices to d
One problem you overlook is what is meant by 'true engineering.' In order to become a professional engineer you must have deep problem domain knowledge. I graduated as a mechanical engineer, but never got professionalized. If you want a true 'software engineer' in the terms you are talking, they will have to have non-software engineering training to be proficient with the big engineering picture of their designs. Or the ability to pass an engineering exam on the relevant topics to their software project. It will require much more time and money to obtain than even my mechanical engineering took. For a fascinating read (at least to me): [Engineer's Ring - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer's\_Ring)
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gggustafson wrote:
. When I was a member of the ANS X3J9 technical committee (Pascal) we were limited to a language update every five years.
And back then that worked because there wasn't as often a change in the industry. Now, this industry moves much faster and needs updates much more often.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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The problem is ... defining a "professional programmer", I think. I class myself as "professional" - but I'm sure many would disagree because I write code with an eye to specification changes and maintenance rather than "clever code". And many that I'd class as unprofessional* would disagree because "their code works" (despite it being assembled from bits found on Youtube and SO it compiles, and that counts as working as far as some are concerned). Add in JSOP's fun and games with required certification recently and the prospects get remote because he isn't the only one who is going to squawk about the waste of time spent getting a piece of paper every year or two that says "I really do know what I am doing". Particularly when the current bits of paper just say "I can pass an exam in this". When you also think that pretty much every country on the planet is pushing the young into software regardless of inclination, ability or (in extreme cases) active brain cells it gets even harder to set up a good association. It'll come - eventually, and over a lot of shouting - when it becomes obvious that the whole world relies on software and the current crop is woefully poor quality. But just like doctors, pharmacists, teachers, et al, it's going to take a long time because the bad developers either don't realise they are poor, or they don't want to be found out. * Third try: the first two descriptions were obscene
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640 Never throw anything away, Griff Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay... AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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One problem you overlook is what is meant by 'true engineering.' In order to become a professional engineer you must have deep problem domain knowledge. I graduated as a mechanical engineer, but never got professionalized. If you want a true 'software engineer' in the terms you are talking, they will have to have non-software engineering training to be proficient with the big engineering picture of their designs. Or the ability to pass an engineering exam on the relevant topics to their software project. It will require much more time and money to obtain than even my mechanical engineering took. For a fascinating read (at least to me): [Engineer's Ring - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer's\_Ring)
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One problem you overlook is what is meant by 'true engineering.' In order to become a professional engineer you must have deep problem domain knowledge. I graduated as a mechanical engineer, but never got professionalized. If you want a true 'software engineer' in the terms you are talking, they will have to have non-software engineering training to be proficient with the big engineering picture of their designs. Or the ability to pass an engineering exam on the relevant topics to their software project. It will require much more time and money to obtain than even my mechanical engineering took. For a fascinating read (at least to me): [Engineer's Ring - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer's\_Ring)
I avoided using the word "engineer" for the very reason you provide. However, if this professional organization can guide academia then the word might be able to be used. I'm suggesting Congressional charter.
Gus Gustafson
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I avoided using the word "engineer" for the very reason you provide. However, if this professional organization can guide academia then the word might be able to be used. I'm suggesting Congressional charter.
Gus Gustafson
gggustafson wrote:
I avoided using the word "engineer" for the very reason you provide.
gggustafson wrote:
I firmly believe that programmers should be held accountable for their mistakes
I don't believe you can have one without the other. The best you can do is probably the current situation where a professional engineer creates the specifications for the program, and the programmer must meet the specs. The full blame falls on the professional engineer and the company that checks to make sure their spec was met. If a programmer in the current scenario fails to meet the spec, and the company doesn't catch this, you are advocating for the programmer to be responsible? I doubt it. Some more thought needs to go into your proposal. I am not saying you have to get a full mechanical engineering degree before making them 'professional.' Engineering is one of the few disciplines where if you can pass the test (and in some cases an apprenticeship) they don't care how you get the knowledge. At least it was when I last checked.
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During my 50+ year career, I have been employed by 16 companies, each for varying periods of time. At the end of it all, guess how much of a retirement fund that I have - $0. Guess how much insurance I have - $0. Basically, I have no benefits that accrued over the 50+ years. Nothing was done illegally. In large part this situation was caused as a result of my decisions. But, when you're 34, you seldom have the wisdom that you have when you are 60. The other side of the problem was that in 2 cases, my salary was significantly higher with recent to that of recent graduates. I believe that a professional organization would have protected me against myself.
Gus Gustafson
gggustafson wrote:
this situation was caused as a result of my decisions.
absolutely. If you are an American, and paid your taxes, you have Social Security benefits, which can begin as early as 62 years of age.
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
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gggustafson wrote:
The problem is really systemic to the programming community
We are the problem _and_ the solution. :rolleyes:
gggustafson wrote:
except we don't have a programming community!
Very true. it's the wild, wild west out there a lot. I mean just read a couple of StackOverflow answers and you'll know that no one agrees on anything. :laugh: Well, except that everyone agrees that every dev is disagreeable. :laugh:
raddevus wrote:
gggustafson wrote:
except we don't have a programming community!
Very true. it's the wild, wild west out there a lot.
Isn't CodeProject a great example of a community ? Do you think "community" is dependent on lack of conflict, lack of strong opinions, lack of diversity ?
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
