What do you think?
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So, for the third time, what evidence specifically are you referring to ? You've dodged around, refusing to directly offer any arguable proof - try putting up a few targets, and I'm sure any number of people will be prepared to demonstrate the error of your ways!
Hi Mike. When I posted my original reply I expected it to keep me busy for a bit ;) Actually I answered the question the first time, it was not asked the second time and only vaguely the third time ( i.e. not in a way that seemed to beg my restating it ). Well, the most obvious is that when someone becomes a Christian they have an experience that is defined in the Bible which includes the ability to pray in a language that God gives. Apart from that, I guess the most obvious thing is people being healed of diseases. The whole issue of healing has been the focus since I said it, but the most specific proof is the experience that occurs when someone becomes a Christian. The only thing that is uniform between converts is the proof the Bible promises to all Christians, namely that they will speak in tongues, which is a language God gives us for the purpose of prayer. The point really is that to someone wanting to shoot it down, it's easy to dismiss it as just a noise that means nothing, but as a Christian I can choose to speak in tongues, or choose to make a sound, they are different things. So the proof is there, but it's not proof in the sense that 60 Minutes could do a documentary and the churches would fill up the next day. I have said that the Bible talks about faith being founded on proof, and this is true for people who have become Christians. It is true that a grain of faith is requires for conversion - not belief, but willingness to believe. In a nutshell, I am talking about proof that is to the individual - it proves the existance of God to the person it happens to, but not to the onlooker. Obviously you are a skeptic and it's unlikely that what I have said will impress you overmuch. That's up to you. However, it is the proof that the Bible offers, and which I have experienced. I know of no other religion that offers any sort of tangible proof by which it can be tested and risks the possibility of being found wanting, at least not without first paying money on a no refund basis ;0) To me, the fact that the Bible sets itself up for a fall by promising ANYTHING tanglible to the individual is in itself proof that the authors were either right, or mad. But I admit to being preconvinced by my experience, even as you seem preconvinced by your lack of one. Which bring back to my original point - how do you prove something DOESN'T exist, especially if you don't expect the thing in question to DO anything if it does ? Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the arou
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Exactly my point - there's plenty of "evidence" to support virtually any claim. The issue here is why you think your evidence is (a) better than anyone elses, and (b) even if it is, why it's even slightly relevant to the question of belief in God ? My original point was that there cannot, by definition, be proof of the *lack* of existance of God, any more than I can prove the Great Pumpkin does not exist. Religious (organised or not) belief is founded in Faith. By definite, faith requires no proof. In fact, to seek or require proof or evidence, or to see proof as a valid or necessary trigger for faith simply devalues the faith itself. Funny, while Douglas Adams said that, the Bible says the opposite. In the Bible faith is substantial because it is based on experience. I'm not questioning your faith (how can I - it's yours, not anyone else's), just challenging the notion that you can or even should have evidence to back it up. Faith and evidence are unrelated concepts, and I find it naive that you would attempt to defend or promote your faith by offering (or accepting) evidence. It just happens to be what the Bible says. I doubt there's any point in continuing the discussion though. Oh, and Bon Jovi rock like the old, rich, tired men they are ! Try Rammstein if you're feeling adventurous(!!) ... Rammstein suck. For new(ish) bands, I like RATM. But nothing can touch bands like Bon Jovi, Motley Crue, old Metallica and Judas Priest IMHO. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
We shall indeed end this conversation - it has no viable place to go! As my last word (feel free to offer your own parting comments!!), I can only chanllenge your statement that the bible builds faith on experience. The bible says anything you want it to say - it has no inherent consistency, and is acceptable only by those willing to either (a) ignore that which does not meet their preconceptions or (b) are silly enough to think that sucha flawed document could be created by an all-knowing, all-seeing entity. I say, burn all bibles!! (flame war, start here) Halford's new album (resurrection) shows Priest how it should be done! Motley Crue ? I hate those girl bands...
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Here's one that may start a flame war, but I hope not. As I consider us programmers to be quite a smart and reasoning bunch, what do you guys think should happen with the refugees on the freight ship of the coast of Australia? I was quite supprised that it would be possible to put through legislation so quickly. Probably some kind of record. Giles
Send them to New Zealand, Then they can get NZ citizenship and slip into Australia Regardz Colin Davies :)
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Prayer doesn't work like you ask for something you get it. You ask for God's will to be done. So why bother praying at all? If you can't influence "God's will" by praying to him to get what you want, what is the use? If it's going to happen, it's going to happen, right? Jon Sagara Sagara Software
>>So why bother praying at all? I believe the phrase you are (indirectly) referring to here is "god works in mysterious ways". Which I have always translated as "It's a waste of time attempting to understand anything at all about god, since he won't explain anything about what he's really up to." Personally, I think god is Bon Jovi's manager - how else can you explain the outrageous success of such obviously untalented hairstyles ??
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>>So why bother praying at all? I believe the phrase you are (indirectly) referring to here is "god works in mysterious ways". Which I have always translated as "It's a waste of time attempting to understand anything at all about god, since he won't explain anything about what he's really up to." Personally, I think god is Bon Jovi's manager - how else can you explain the outrageous success of such obviously untalented hairstyles ??
I think god is Bon Jovi's manager :-D Amen, brother. Jon Sagara Sagara Software
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We shall indeed end this conversation - it has no viable place to go! As my last word (feel free to offer your own parting comments!!), I can only chanllenge your statement that the bible builds faith on experience. The bible says anything you want it to say - it has no inherent consistency, and is acceptable only by those willing to either (a) ignore that which does not meet their preconceptions or (b) are silly enough to think that sucha flawed document could be created by an all-knowing, all-seeing entity. I say, burn all bibles!! (flame war, start here) Halford's new album (resurrection) shows Priest how it should be done! Motley Crue ? I hate those girl bands...
Do you base your comments on the Bible on your own reading, or the fact that what you've said is generally accepted as true amongst people who have not read it, but reject it ? I actually hate the Ripper Owens stuff, I thought the Halford album was the best Priest release in years. I loved Painkiller though, Rob certainly left on a high note ( no pun intended ). Did you ever hear Motley's self titled album with John Corabi ? The combination of that and Vince's first solo album makes me think they work better without him, and he without them. Not that I don't love 'Shout at the Devil' or 'Dr. Feelgood', of course... Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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>>So why bother praying at all? I believe the phrase you are (indirectly) referring to here is "god works in mysterious ways". Which I have always translated as "It's a waste of time attempting to understand anything at all about god, since he won't explain anything about what he's really up to." Personally, I think god is Bon Jovi's manager - how else can you explain the outrageous success of such obviously untalented hairstyles ??
"god works in mysterious ways". Isn't it funny how the things everyone knows about God are not in the Bible ? Personally, I think god is Bon Jovi's manager - how else can you explain the outrageous success of such obviously untalented hairstyles ?? In 20 years time, your kids will make fun of the hairstyles and sound of the bands you like, but the fact is in both cases, they just looked like everyone else at the time. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Hi Mike. When I posted my original reply I expected it to keep me busy for a bit ;) Actually I answered the question the first time, it was not asked the second time and only vaguely the third time ( i.e. not in a way that seemed to beg my restating it ). Well, the most obvious is that when someone becomes a Christian they have an experience that is defined in the Bible which includes the ability to pray in a language that God gives. Apart from that, I guess the most obvious thing is people being healed of diseases. The whole issue of healing has been the focus since I said it, but the most specific proof is the experience that occurs when someone becomes a Christian. The only thing that is uniform between converts is the proof the Bible promises to all Christians, namely that they will speak in tongues, which is a language God gives us for the purpose of prayer. The point really is that to someone wanting to shoot it down, it's easy to dismiss it as just a noise that means nothing, but as a Christian I can choose to speak in tongues, or choose to make a sound, they are different things. So the proof is there, but it's not proof in the sense that 60 Minutes could do a documentary and the churches would fill up the next day. I have said that the Bible talks about faith being founded on proof, and this is true for people who have become Christians. It is true that a grain of faith is requires for conversion - not belief, but willingness to believe. In a nutshell, I am talking about proof that is to the individual - it proves the existance of God to the person it happens to, but not to the onlooker. Obviously you are a skeptic and it's unlikely that what I have said will impress you overmuch. That's up to you. However, it is the proof that the Bible offers, and which I have experienced. I know of no other religion that offers any sort of tangible proof by which it can be tested and risks the possibility of being found wanting, at least not without first paying money on a no refund basis ;0) To me, the fact that the Bible sets itself up for a fall by promising ANYTHING tanglible to the individual is in itself proof that the authors were either right, or mad. But I admit to being preconvinced by my experience, even as you seem preconvinced by your lack of one. Which bring back to my original point - how do you prove something DOESN'T exist, especially if you don't expect the thing in question to DO anything if it does ? Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the arou
Having just posted a "final word" on another thread, I can't help myself .... (a) By your own admission your faith, and proof, don't exist to anyone but yourself, and any outside observer will be unable to distinquish between your 'proof' (speaking in tongues) and the mumbling of a mentally ill person. So, youcan call yourself a christian, and I'll probably call you slightly insane. (b) I mentioned the word "naive" earlier, and you continue to demonstate an almost alarming amount of it - virtually all religions make the same 'claim' that you attribute to the bible. Converts are always offered a form of proof, known only to converts and inaccessible to 'outsiders'. The "secret handshake" is a comoon theme in major and minor religions. You reveal a (typical) amount of religious zealotry in claiming exceptional "proof" for your brand of faith. THis is the hallmark of all "true believers" - the unjust cannot see what they are missing, and will only have the truth revealed to them once they embrass the faith. I'm sorry, but this is a self centered and slef-serving argument of the highest level. (c) I agree that I can think of no way of proving god does not exist. I can also see no way of proving he does (you "proof" falls well short of any objective measure). I also fail to see the relevance of the whole topic - god cannot be proved or disproved, cannot be appealed to or threatened, cannot be seen or proven to have had a hand in anything, and cannot be questioned or queried in any measureable way. If that doesn't make him/her/it irrelevant to life in almost everyway... Enough - there's code to be written.
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Send them to New Zealand, Then they can get NZ citizenship and slip into Australia Regardz Colin Davies :)
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Here's one that may start a flame war, but I hope not. As I consider us programmers to be quite a smart and reasoning bunch, what do you guys think should happen with the refugees on the freight ship of the coast of Australia? I was quite supprised that it would be possible to put through legislation so quickly. Probably some kind of record. Giles
I'm probably going to get it for this, but I say kill them. Kill them all. And while you're at it, release a biogenetical virus into the atmosphere which will wipe out all human life on Earth. I am not joking. Think of all the problems that would be solved by ‘removing’ our entire species. Let the insects take over, let the rabbits take over, hell, why not let the lowly bacteria take over as top dog? They can’t do any worse than we have. People are always killing and persecuting each over, and we always will do, its our nature, and in doing so we f*ck up the planet for the rest of life. Now, I know religious people will be able to answer this (supposedly), but what gives us the right to decide life and death of an entire planet? Think about it: "What makes human life more important than, say, a fly's?" Life is a process, one which is the same for a man and the same for a beast. [I forget where I read that line]. You cannot rate a process that is identical for different systems as being worth more for one than another. Sure, there are some people out there trying to make the world a better place, but for every one of them, there are fifty destroying it. Anyway, what was the question again? I think I’ve rambled a bit off course here. Oh yeah, the immigrants. As the removal of the human race is unlikely to be a popular solution (except with the Iraqis [jk]), I say you should give them supplies, medical treatment, etc, then send them back where they came from. No one ever won a fight by running away. If they stick with their miserable and difficult lives (by our standards) then any victory for them – no matter how small – will mean a lot more. If you can bring joy into a persons life, good for you. If they can do it themselves then it is good for them. Yours, James the Philosopher
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Do you base your comments on the Bible on your own reading, or the fact that what you've said is generally accepted as true amongst people who have not read it, but reject it ? I actually hate the Ripper Owens stuff, I thought the Halford album was the best Priest release in years. I loved Painkiller though, Rob certainly left on a high note ( no pun intended ). Did you ever hear Motley's self titled album with John Corabi ? The combination of that and Vince's first solo album makes me think they work better without him, and he without them. Not that I don't love 'Shout at the Devil' or 'Dr. Feelgood', of course... Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
I am happy (no thankful!) that I have not read the bible cover to cover. I have read more than enough of any number of religious texts to know that it's a typical response to use the "If you haven't read it, how would you know" argument. I haven't taken large doses of arsenic, so how do I know it will be bad for me ?? Because (a) I've seen what it does to people who did take the does (ie, knowledge through observation) and (b) I have studied the debates of people who have done the research (knowledge through learning). Your point of "knowledge througn personal experience" (ie, you've read the turgid piece of rambling nonsense called the bible) is only one possible source of information, and it is the one most likely to be self-furfilling, and therefore of dubious value. Motley Crue were good in the flesh, but pussies in the studio.
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Having just posted a "final word" on another thread, I can't help myself .... (a) By your own admission your faith, and proof, don't exist to anyone but yourself, and any outside observer will be unable to distinquish between your 'proof' (speaking in tongues) and the mumbling of a mentally ill person. So, youcan call yourself a christian, and I'll probably call you slightly insane. (b) I mentioned the word "naive" earlier, and you continue to demonstate an almost alarming amount of it - virtually all religions make the same 'claim' that you attribute to the bible. Converts are always offered a form of proof, known only to converts and inaccessible to 'outsiders'. The "secret handshake" is a comoon theme in major and minor religions. You reveal a (typical) amount of religious zealotry in claiming exceptional "proof" for your brand of faith. THis is the hallmark of all "true believers" - the unjust cannot see what they are missing, and will only have the truth revealed to them once they embrass the faith. I'm sorry, but this is a self centered and slef-serving argument of the highest level. (c) I agree that I can think of no way of proving god does not exist. I can also see no way of proving he does (you "proof" falls well short of any objective measure). I also fail to see the relevance of the whole topic - god cannot be proved or disproved, cannot be appealed to or threatened, cannot be seen or proven to have had a hand in anything, and cannot be questioned or queried in any measureable way. If that doesn't make him/her/it irrelevant to life in almost everyway... Enough - there's code to be written.
I'll pick on the Quran seeing as I was about to learn about it recently until the person who made the unsolicited offer ran scared when I said I was a Christian. Please tell me what proof the Quran offers to the individual at the moment of conversion ? Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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I'll pick on the Quran seeing as I was about to learn about it recently until the person who made the unsolicited offer ran scared when I said I was a Christian. Please tell me what proof the Quran offers to the individual at the moment of conversion ? Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
Christian, Not turning down your challenge (despite what it looks like!), but I have to go now - perhaps someone else can take this up, or I'll pick this up in a day or so. But this has consumed more time that I have already, and things will no longer wait.. Later.
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I am happy (no thankful!) that I have not read the bible cover to cover. I have read more than enough of any number of religious texts to know that it's a typical response to use the "If you haven't read it, how would you know" argument. I haven't taken large doses of arsenic, so how do I know it will be bad for me ?? Because (a) I've seen what it does to people who did take the does (ie, knowledge through observation) and (b) I have studied the debates of people who have done the research (knowledge through learning). Your point of "knowledge througn personal experience" (ie, you've read the turgid piece of rambling nonsense called the bible) is only one possible source of information, and it is the one most likely to be self-furfilling, and therefore of dubious value. Motley Crue were good in the flesh, but pussies in the studio.
I always thought Vinces voice was a little flat on the live recordings I have heard, but I agree, the studio stuff was not always as gutsy as they seemed to be live ( based on some bootleg tapes I've seen & heard ), especially Theatre of Pain. I am amused that you refer to the piece of rambling nonsense called the bible, which you claim confidently is full of contradictions, but you're proud not to have read it. I presume you don't base your knowledge of programming on a similar lack of experience ? Why should your ability to claim authority differ because the issue is religious in nature ? That would be like me going over to the C# forum and answering questions because 'everyone knows' . Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Christian, Not turning down your challenge (despite what it looks like!), but I have to go now - perhaps someone else can take this up, or I'll pick this up in a day or so. But this has consumed more time that I have already, and things will no longer wait.. Later.
OK - I've got plenty to do myself. I have been intrigued by the whole Islam thing ever since this guy came at me full force offering to prove the Quran to me and then just plain ignored me when I answered his question that I was a Christian. I'm still not sure what he was scared of, but it's made me curious of the whole thing anyhow. ( in a purely academic, 'what are they on about' kind of way) Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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As an Aussie I am flabergasted by the whole thing. In the paper yesterday they were saying the Norwegian crew expect that they should bring the folks here on the basis that Australia made the call for assistance. Well of COURSE we did, the Indonesians don't care about these people !! We called for help and have flown in medical supplies, and as far as I am concerned that is fair and good. But to allow these people into the country does two things. It sends a message that we'll let anyone into the country and it sends a message that paying money to someone to smuggle you into Australia is a hot ticket. I say send them back, and anyone who wants to complain about Australia being the bad ones can open THEIR country to a flood of unskilled migrants ready to put a strain on social security services and public housing. I'm all for migration and I'm all for compassion for people in need, as well as import of skilled workers, but as John Howard said yesterday, we will not have our immigration policy decided for us by people smugglers. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
Just a technical question, Christian, how are they supposed to send them back? According to the captain of the Norwegian boat, the boat is no supposed to take more than 30 people. And total amount of refugees is about 500, isn't it? Should these people all be packed like cargo, just because they are refugees? I totally agree, the best is to send them back, back how? Norwegians say that authorities don't allow those people to leave the boat, here is a problem. Just curious Vagif Abilov COM+/ATL/MFC Developer Oslo, Norway
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I'm interested to know how you go about proving there is no God. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
Our existence is the best prove that there's no God: Proceding in a mathemathical way we will consider that God exists and we'll finally get a contradiction: Assuming that God exists and that he is the perfection, now we consider our existence and our creation. What was before us? something else sure, but was it better than us? if it was, why did God changed it? if it wasn't, how could God allowed it? (Marquis De Sade) This is a simple prove based in the fact that perfection implies stability so something that has motion (like our universe) can't proceed from something perfect (a God). I agree that if we don't consider God as a perfect essence this is not true (but it's not even a God) That's all!
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Just a technical question, Christian, how are they supposed to send them back? According to the captain of the Norwegian boat, the boat is no supposed to take more than 30 people. And total amount of refugees is about 500, isn't it? Should these people all be packed like cargo, just because they are refugees? I totally agree, the best is to send them back, back how? Norwegians say that authorities don't allow those people to leave the boat, here is a problem. Just curious Vagif Abilov COM+/ATL/MFC Developer Oslo, Norway
Well, given you're in Norway I'd be interested in the difference between what my media tells me and what yours tells you. It's been claimed here that there is growing ill feeling in Norway towards Australia on the basis that we put in the call for help for these people and now we don't want them. I'd be interested ( and not at all corss ) to hear if this is true. I've also read that Norways preferred course is for them to be brought here, and I presumed from the context of the article that the idea was the boat that has them brought them. Nidonesia apparently gave permission for the boat to take the people there, then recinded. I don't see how such permission could be given unless it was asked for. According to the maps in the paper Indonesia is a holler and spit from where they are, which we are not. As to how, surely the issue is the same no matter how they travel ? If they go back or come here they either can come in the boat they are on or they cannot, and if they canot an alternative needs to be found in either direction. I think they should be landed on Christmas ISland for a brief time, to allow the ship to travel on ( it is after all a money making concern losing I believe $30,000 a day as it sits there ), and the Indonesian goverment told to come and pick their people up, or we'll drop them off and send the bill. I seem to remember we won a shooting war against these people not so long ago.... Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Our existence is the best prove that there's no God: Proceding in a mathemathical way we will consider that God exists and we'll finally get a contradiction: Assuming that God exists and that he is the perfection, now we consider our existence and our creation. What was before us? something else sure, but was it better than us? if it was, why did God changed it? if it wasn't, how could God allowed it? (Marquis De Sade) This is a simple prove based in the fact that perfection implies stability so something that has motion (like our universe) can't proceed from something perfect (a God). I agree that if we don't consider God as a perfect essence this is not true (but it's not even a God) That's all!
I always wonder when people come out with these sort of meaningless mental gymnastics if they are trying to convince others or themselves. I realise there are a myriad of reasons why people may decide not to look into the existance of a God, and so never to find out that He is there, but when people put up straw man arguments in order to cut them down, it just sounds insecure to me. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Well, given you're in Norway I'd be interested in the difference between what my media tells me and what yours tells you. It's been claimed here that there is growing ill feeling in Norway towards Australia on the basis that we put in the call for help for these people and now we don't want them. I'd be interested ( and not at all corss ) to hear if this is true. I've also read that Norways preferred course is for them to be brought here, and I presumed from the context of the article that the idea was the boat that has them brought them. Nidonesia apparently gave permission for the boat to take the people there, then recinded. I don't see how such permission could be given unless it was asked for. According to the maps in the paper Indonesia is a holler and spit from where they are, which we are not. As to how, surely the issue is the same no matter how they travel ? If they go back or come here they either can come in the boat they are on or they cannot, and if they canot an alternative needs to be found in either direction. I think they should be landed on Christmas ISland for a brief time, to allow the ship to travel on ( it is after all a money making concern losing I believe $30,000 a day as it sits there ), and the Indonesian goverment told to come and pick their people up, or we'll drop them off and send the bill. I seem to remember we won a shooting war against these people not so long ago.... Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
Norwegian press (and authorities) is quite negative about the way Australians are handling the situtation. I pesonally find their position reasonable (not just because I'm in Norway). If you get a boat with 460 people (this seems to be a correct number, not 438 as reported earlier), you can't just let them die whoever they are. The captain just refused to depart with all those people aboard. I think developed countries need to work out a set of rules to deal with such cases. This one is not the first, it's not going to be the last. Vagif Abilov COM+/ATL/MFC Developer Oslo, Norway