What do you think?
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Christian, For a smart guy, you can be real naive sometimes (and not just about Bon Jovi!!). Your ability to deceive yourself about the nature of what you call god (no big "G" on purpose) is entirely a matter for you and how you wish to waste that part of your life - but don't even try to run with any form of 'physical proof' for the existence your emotional crutch. There simply isn't any such proof - especially in the 'healing of disease'. I read recently that a study of prayer as an aid in treatment of heart attack victims had revealed that it had an apparently determental effect - more of the patients prayed for ended up dying!!
Did I expect to make such a comment and *not* get flak over it ? ;) I guess you can believe the studies you read and I'll believe the evidence I have seen. What other religion has members who became converted precisely because when they didn't believe they knew they were prayed for and they were healed in ways too miraculous the explain away ? I've had other people tell me that studies have shown people are healed when prayed for because they have faith ( a placebo effect of epic proportions ), so I guess there will always be a study to support whatever POV you want to put forward. Oh, and Bon Jovi rocks ;) Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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I find it hard to believe that an invisible man in the sky is in charge of my life. Likewise, I have trouble accepting as indisputable fact most of the events in the Bible (some most definitely occurred, such as the great flood). I love the Bible - it is full of many guidelines to help you lead a great life. I attribute my own high moral values to having learned many lessons from it while attending a Christian school. Back then, I even asked Jesus into my heart because my teachers told me I should. But I can't make the leap of faith, I can't throw myself whole-heartedly at something as ambiguous as religion. I believe religion was (and still is, I guess) a tool for the oppressed, repressed, exploited masses all throughout the world and all throughout time (hence the many different flavors). It helped them to carry on with their hard, hellish existences. For people who are all alone in the world, religion is the one thing that they can cling to, for the Bible will always be there for them: * Blessed are they that mourn, for they shall be comforted. * Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. * Blessed are they which to hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled. * Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. * Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. * Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God. * Blessed are they which are presecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. * Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. * Rejoice and be exceeding glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. I have taken the lessons of the Bible, applied them to my life, and I am quite happy with the results. I have also "sinned" (according to the Bible) and learned many life and human experiences that it could not possibly teach me, and I am still happy. I don't go to church, I don't pay a 10% tithe, and I don't pray to Him. If someone can show me with proof that their religion is verifiably correct - that their superior being is THE ONE - then I'm in. But until that day, I have all but written off religion. That's just my humble opinion, of course. Nothing else. :| Jon Sagara Sagara Software
I find it hard to believe that an invisible man in the sky is in charge of my life. Likewise, I have trouble accepting as indisputable fact most of the events in the Bible (some most definitely occurred, such as the great flood). I love the Bible - it is full of many guidelines to help you lead a great life. I attribute my own high moral values to having learned many lessons from it while attending a Christian school. Back then, I even asked Jesus into my heart because my teachers told me I should. Your teachers were wrong, the Bible says nothing about such a process. FWIW you are in charge of your life, I didn't say otherwise. But I can't make the leap of faith, I can't throw myself whole-heartedly at something as ambiguous as religion. I believe religion was (and still is, I guess) a tool for the oppressed, repressed, exploited masses all throughout the world and all throughout time (hence the many different flavors). I agree with you, both about religion and ambiguity. I'm not talking about that though. I have taken the lessons of the Bible, applied them to my life, and I am quite happy with the results. I have also "sinned" (according to the Bible) and learned many life and human experiences that it could not possibly teach me, and I am still happy. I don't go to church, I don't pay a 10% tithe, and I don't pray to Him. If someone can show me with proof that their religion is verifiably correct - that their superior being is THE ONE - then I'm in. But until that day, I have all but written off religion. Well, like I said, the proof is there if you want it. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Christian, For a smart guy, you can be real naive sometimes (and not just about Bon Jovi!!). Your ability to deceive yourself about the nature of what you call god (no big "G" on purpose) is entirely a matter for you and how you wish to waste that part of your life - but don't even try to run with any form of 'physical proof' for the existence your emotional crutch. There simply isn't any such proof - especially in the 'healing of disease'. I read recently that a study of prayer as an aid in treatment of heart attack victims had revealed that it had an apparently determental effect - more of the patients prayed for ended up dying!!
Prayer doesn't work like you ask for something you get it. You ask for God's will to be done. Besides statistics can be used to prove anything, 14 percent of all people know that. Here is how most statistics work these day. Step 1) Alot of people die from heart attacks. Setup 2) Alot of people pray for people who had heart attacks. Step 3) This must mean that Alot of people who have heart attacks get prayed for and die. See no real proof behind it. Oh and I and I agree with Christian, Bon Jovi rocks! -Matt Newman :suss:
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I find it hard to believe that an invisible man in the sky is in charge of my life. Likewise, I have trouble accepting as indisputable fact most of the events in the Bible (some most definitely occurred, such as the great flood). I love the Bible - it is full of many guidelines to help you lead a great life. I attribute my own high moral values to having learned many lessons from it while attending a Christian school. Back then, I even asked Jesus into my heart because my teachers told me I should. Your teachers were wrong, the Bible says nothing about such a process. FWIW you are in charge of your life, I didn't say otherwise. But I can't make the leap of faith, I can't throw myself whole-heartedly at something as ambiguous as religion. I believe religion was (and still is, I guess) a tool for the oppressed, repressed, exploited masses all throughout the world and all throughout time (hence the many different flavors). I agree with you, both about religion and ambiguity. I'm not talking about that though. I have taken the lessons of the Bible, applied them to my life, and I am quite happy with the results. I have also "sinned" (according to the Bible) and learned many life and human experiences that it could not possibly teach me, and I am still happy. I don't go to church, I don't pay a 10% tithe, and I don't pray to Him. If someone can show me with proof that their religion is verifiably correct - that their superior being is THE ONE - then I'm in. But until that day, I have all but written off religion. Well, like I said, the proof is there if you want it. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
Well, like I said, the proof is there if you want it. Where? Stories of miraculous healings are propaganda, not proof. Jon Sagara Sagara Software
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Well, like I said, the proof is there if you want it. Where? Stories of miraculous healings are propaganda, not proof. Jon Sagara Sagara Software
Where? Stories of miraculous healings are propaganda, not proof. Well, you're welcome to call me a liar based on your lack of experience if it props up your view of the universe, I guess. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Did I expect to make such a comment and *not* get flak over it ? ;) I guess you can believe the studies you read and I'll believe the evidence I have seen. What other religion has members who became converted precisely because when they didn't believe they knew they were prayed for and they were healed in ways too miraculous the explain away ? I've had other people tell me that studies have shown people are healed when prayed for because they have faith ( a placebo effect of epic proportions ), so I guess there will always be a study to support whatever POV you want to put forward. Oh, and Bon Jovi rocks ;) Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
Exactly my point - there's plenty of "evidence" to support virtually any claim. The issue here is why you think your evidence is (a) better than anyone elses, and (b) even if it is, why it's even slightly relevant to the question of belief in God ? Religious (organised or not) belief is founded in Faith. By definite, faith requires no proof. In fact, to seek or require proof or evidence, or to see proof as a valid or necessary trigger for faith simply devalues the faith itself. I'm not questioning your faith (how can I - it's yours, not anyone else's), just challenging the notion that you can or even should have evidence to back it up. Faith and evidence are unrelated concepts, and I find it naive that you would attempt to defend or promote your faith by offering (or accepting) evidence. Oh, and Bon Jovi rock like the old, rich, tired men they are ! Try Rammstein if you're feeling adventurous(!!) ...
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Prayer doesn't work like you ask for something you get it. You ask for God's will to be done. Besides statistics can be used to prove anything, 14 percent of all people know that. Here is how most statistics work these day. Step 1) Alot of people die from heart attacks. Setup 2) Alot of people pray for people who had heart attacks. Step 3) This must mean that Alot of people who have heart attacks get prayed for and die. See no real proof behind it. Oh and I and I agree with Christian, Bon Jovi rocks! -Matt Newman :suss:
>> Prayer doesn't work... I agree (Ah, the power of selective editing) >>statistics can be used to prove anything I agree (again), and that was my point. Christian was offering "evidence" for his beliefs - I was demonstrating (briefly) that it's possible to find all kinds of "evidence" that seem to "prove" many different things. And Bon Jovi should give it up ...
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Where? Stories of miraculous healings are propaganda, not proof. Well, you're welcome to call me a liar based on your lack of experience if it props up your view of the universe, I guess. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
So, for the third time, what evidence specifically are you referring to ? You've dodged around, refusing to directly offer any arguable proof - try putting up a few targets, and I'm sure any number of people will be prepared to demonstrate the error of your ways!
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Exactly my point - there's plenty of "evidence" to support virtually any claim. The issue here is why you think your evidence is (a) better than anyone elses, and (b) even if it is, why it's even slightly relevant to the question of belief in God ? Religious (organised or not) belief is founded in Faith. By definite, faith requires no proof. In fact, to seek or require proof or evidence, or to see proof as a valid or necessary trigger for faith simply devalues the faith itself. I'm not questioning your faith (how can I - it's yours, not anyone else's), just challenging the notion that you can or even should have evidence to back it up. Faith and evidence are unrelated concepts, and I find it naive that you would attempt to defend or promote your faith by offering (or accepting) evidence. Oh, and Bon Jovi rock like the old, rich, tired men they are ! Try Rammstein if you're feeling adventurous(!!) ...
Exactly my point - there's plenty of "evidence" to support virtually any claim. The issue here is why you think your evidence is (a) better than anyone elses, and (b) even if it is, why it's even slightly relevant to the question of belief in God ? My original point was that there cannot, by definition, be proof of the *lack* of existance of God, any more than I can prove the Great Pumpkin does not exist. Religious (organised or not) belief is founded in Faith. By definite, faith requires no proof. In fact, to seek or require proof or evidence, or to see proof as a valid or necessary trigger for faith simply devalues the faith itself. Funny, while Douglas Adams said that, the Bible says the opposite. In the Bible faith is substantial because it is based on experience. I'm not questioning your faith (how can I - it's yours, not anyone else's), just challenging the notion that you can or even should have evidence to back it up. Faith and evidence are unrelated concepts, and I find it naive that you would attempt to defend or promote your faith by offering (or accepting) evidence. It just happens to be what the Bible says. I doubt there's any point in continuing the discussion though. Oh, and Bon Jovi rock like the old, rich, tired men they are ! Try Rammstein if you're feeling adventurous(!!) ... Rammstein suck. For new(ish) bands, I like RATM. But nothing can touch bands like Bon Jovi, Motley Crue, old Metallica and Judas Priest IMHO. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Prayer doesn't work like you ask for something you get it. You ask for God's will to be done. Besides statistics can be used to prove anything, 14 percent of all people know that. Here is how most statistics work these day. Step 1) Alot of people die from heart attacks. Setup 2) Alot of people pray for people who had heart attacks. Step 3) This must mean that Alot of people who have heart attacks get prayed for and die. See no real proof behind it. Oh and I and I agree with Christian, Bon Jovi rocks! -Matt Newman :suss:
Prayer doesn't work like you ask for something you get it. You ask for God's will to be done. So why bother praying at all? If you can't influence "God's will" by praying to him to get what you want, what is the use? If it's going to happen, it's going to happen, right? Jon Sagara Sagara Software
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So, for the third time, what evidence specifically are you referring to ? You've dodged around, refusing to directly offer any arguable proof - try putting up a few targets, and I'm sure any number of people will be prepared to demonstrate the error of your ways!
Hi Mike. When I posted my original reply I expected it to keep me busy for a bit ;) Actually I answered the question the first time, it was not asked the second time and only vaguely the third time ( i.e. not in a way that seemed to beg my restating it ). Well, the most obvious is that when someone becomes a Christian they have an experience that is defined in the Bible which includes the ability to pray in a language that God gives. Apart from that, I guess the most obvious thing is people being healed of diseases. The whole issue of healing has been the focus since I said it, but the most specific proof is the experience that occurs when someone becomes a Christian. The only thing that is uniform between converts is the proof the Bible promises to all Christians, namely that they will speak in tongues, which is a language God gives us for the purpose of prayer. The point really is that to someone wanting to shoot it down, it's easy to dismiss it as just a noise that means nothing, but as a Christian I can choose to speak in tongues, or choose to make a sound, they are different things. So the proof is there, but it's not proof in the sense that 60 Minutes could do a documentary and the churches would fill up the next day. I have said that the Bible talks about faith being founded on proof, and this is true for people who have become Christians. It is true that a grain of faith is requires for conversion - not belief, but willingness to believe. In a nutshell, I am talking about proof that is to the individual - it proves the existance of God to the person it happens to, but not to the onlooker. Obviously you are a skeptic and it's unlikely that what I have said will impress you overmuch. That's up to you. However, it is the proof that the Bible offers, and which I have experienced. I know of no other religion that offers any sort of tangible proof by which it can be tested and risks the possibility of being found wanting, at least not without first paying money on a no refund basis ;0) To me, the fact that the Bible sets itself up for a fall by promising ANYTHING tanglible to the individual is in itself proof that the authors were either right, or mad. But I admit to being preconvinced by my experience, even as you seem preconvinced by your lack of one. Which bring back to my original point - how do you prove something DOESN'T exist, especially if you don't expect the thing in question to DO anything if it does ? Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the arou
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Exactly my point - there's plenty of "evidence" to support virtually any claim. The issue here is why you think your evidence is (a) better than anyone elses, and (b) even if it is, why it's even slightly relevant to the question of belief in God ? My original point was that there cannot, by definition, be proof of the *lack* of existance of God, any more than I can prove the Great Pumpkin does not exist. Religious (organised or not) belief is founded in Faith. By definite, faith requires no proof. In fact, to seek or require proof or evidence, or to see proof as a valid or necessary trigger for faith simply devalues the faith itself. Funny, while Douglas Adams said that, the Bible says the opposite. In the Bible faith is substantial because it is based on experience. I'm not questioning your faith (how can I - it's yours, not anyone else's), just challenging the notion that you can or even should have evidence to back it up. Faith and evidence are unrelated concepts, and I find it naive that you would attempt to defend or promote your faith by offering (or accepting) evidence. It just happens to be what the Bible says. I doubt there's any point in continuing the discussion though. Oh, and Bon Jovi rock like the old, rich, tired men they are ! Try Rammstein if you're feeling adventurous(!!) ... Rammstein suck. For new(ish) bands, I like RATM. But nothing can touch bands like Bon Jovi, Motley Crue, old Metallica and Judas Priest IMHO. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
We shall indeed end this conversation - it has no viable place to go! As my last word (feel free to offer your own parting comments!!), I can only chanllenge your statement that the bible builds faith on experience. The bible says anything you want it to say - it has no inherent consistency, and is acceptable only by those willing to either (a) ignore that which does not meet their preconceptions or (b) are silly enough to think that sucha flawed document could be created by an all-knowing, all-seeing entity. I say, burn all bibles!! (flame war, start here) Halford's new album (resurrection) shows Priest how it should be done! Motley Crue ? I hate those girl bands...
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Here's one that may start a flame war, but I hope not. As I consider us programmers to be quite a smart and reasoning bunch, what do you guys think should happen with the refugees on the freight ship of the coast of Australia? I was quite supprised that it would be possible to put through legislation so quickly. Probably some kind of record. Giles
Send them to New Zealand, Then they can get NZ citizenship and slip into Australia Regardz Colin Davies :)
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Prayer doesn't work like you ask for something you get it. You ask for God's will to be done. So why bother praying at all? If you can't influence "God's will" by praying to him to get what you want, what is the use? If it's going to happen, it's going to happen, right? Jon Sagara Sagara Software
>>So why bother praying at all? I believe the phrase you are (indirectly) referring to here is "god works in mysterious ways". Which I have always translated as "It's a waste of time attempting to understand anything at all about god, since he won't explain anything about what he's really up to." Personally, I think god is Bon Jovi's manager - how else can you explain the outrageous success of such obviously untalented hairstyles ??
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>>So why bother praying at all? I believe the phrase you are (indirectly) referring to here is "god works in mysterious ways". Which I have always translated as "It's a waste of time attempting to understand anything at all about god, since he won't explain anything about what he's really up to." Personally, I think god is Bon Jovi's manager - how else can you explain the outrageous success of such obviously untalented hairstyles ??
I think god is Bon Jovi's manager :-D Amen, brother. Jon Sagara Sagara Software
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We shall indeed end this conversation - it has no viable place to go! As my last word (feel free to offer your own parting comments!!), I can only chanllenge your statement that the bible builds faith on experience. The bible says anything you want it to say - it has no inherent consistency, and is acceptable only by those willing to either (a) ignore that which does not meet their preconceptions or (b) are silly enough to think that sucha flawed document could be created by an all-knowing, all-seeing entity. I say, burn all bibles!! (flame war, start here) Halford's new album (resurrection) shows Priest how it should be done! Motley Crue ? I hate those girl bands...
Do you base your comments on the Bible on your own reading, or the fact that what you've said is generally accepted as true amongst people who have not read it, but reject it ? I actually hate the Ripper Owens stuff, I thought the Halford album was the best Priest release in years. I loved Painkiller though, Rob certainly left on a high note ( no pun intended ). Did you ever hear Motley's self titled album with John Corabi ? The combination of that and Vince's first solo album makes me think they work better without him, and he without them. Not that I don't love 'Shout at the Devil' or 'Dr. Feelgood', of course... Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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>>So why bother praying at all? I believe the phrase you are (indirectly) referring to here is "god works in mysterious ways". Which I have always translated as "It's a waste of time attempting to understand anything at all about god, since he won't explain anything about what he's really up to." Personally, I think god is Bon Jovi's manager - how else can you explain the outrageous success of such obviously untalented hairstyles ??
"god works in mysterious ways". Isn't it funny how the things everyone knows about God are not in the Bible ? Personally, I think god is Bon Jovi's manager - how else can you explain the outrageous success of such obviously untalented hairstyles ?? In 20 years time, your kids will make fun of the hairstyles and sound of the bands you like, but the fact is in both cases, they just looked like everyone else at the time. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Hi Mike. When I posted my original reply I expected it to keep me busy for a bit ;) Actually I answered the question the first time, it was not asked the second time and only vaguely the third time ( i.e. not in a way that seemed to beg my restating it ). Well, the most obvious is that when someone becomes a Christian they have an experience that is defined in the Bible which includes the ability to pray in a language that God gives. Apart from that, I guess the most obvious thing is people being healed of diseases. The whole issue of healing has been the focus since I said it, but the most specific proof is the experience that occurs when someone becomes a Christian. The only thing that is uniform between converts is the proof the Bible promises to all Christians, namely that they will speak in tongues, which is a language God gives us for the purpose of prayer. The point really is that to someone wanting to shoot it down, it's easy to dismiss it as just a noise that means nothing, but as a Christian I can choose to speak in tongues, or choose to make a sound, they are different things. So the proof is there, but it's not proof in the sense that 60 Minutes could do a documentary and the churches would fill up the next day. I have said that the Bible talks about faith being founded on proof, and this is true for people who have become Christians. It is true that a grain of faith is requires for conversion - not belief, but willingness to believe. In a nutshell, I am talking about proof that is to the individual - it proves the existance of God to the person it happens to, but not to the onlooker. Obviously you are a skeptic and it's unlikely that what I have said will impress you overmuch. That's up to you. However, it is the proof that the Bible offers, and which I have experienced. I know of no other religion that offers any sort of tangible proof by which it can be tested and risks the possibility of being found wanting, at least not without first paying money on a no refund basis ;0) To me, the fact that the Bible sets itself up for a fall by promising ANYTHING tanglible to the individual is in itself proof that the authors were either right, or mad. But I admit to being preconvinced by my experience, even as you seem preconvinced by your lack of one. Which bring back to my original point - how do you prove something DOESN'T exist, especially if you don't expect the thing in question to DO anything if it does ? Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the arou
Having just posted a "final word" on another thread, I can't help myself .... (a) By your own admission your faith, and proof, don't exist to anyone but yourself, and any outside observer will be unable to distinquish between your 'proof' (speaking in tongues) and the mumbling of a mentally ill person. So, youcan call yourself a christian, and I'll probably call you slightly insane. (b) I mentioned the word "naive" earlier, and you continue to demonstate an almost alarming amount of it - virtually all religions make the same 'claim' that you attribute to the bible. Converts are always offered a form of proof, known only to converts and inaccessible to 'outsiders'. The "secret handshake" is a comoon theme in major and minor religions. You reveal a (typical) amount of religious zealotry in claiming exceptional "proof" for your brand of faith. THis is the hallmark of all "true believers" - the unjust cannot see what they are missing, and will only have the truth revealed to them once they embrass the faith. I'm sorry, but this is a self centered and slef-serving argument of the highest level. (c) I agree that I can think of no way of proving god does not exist. I can also see no way of proving he does (you "proof" falls well short of any objective measure). I also fail to see the relevance of the whole topic - god cannot be proved or disproved, cannot be appealed to or threatened, cannot be seen or proven to have had a hand in anything, and cannot be questioned or queried in any measureable way. If that doesn't make him/her/it irrelevant to life in almost everyway... Enough - there's code to be written.
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Send them to New Zealand, Then they can get NZ citizenship and slip into Australia Regardz Colin Davies :)
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Here's one that may start a flame war, but I hope not. As I consider us programmers to be quite a smart and reasoning bunch, what do you guys think should happen with the refugees on the freight ship of the coast of Australia? I was quite supprised that it would be possible to put through legislation so quickly. Probably some kind of record. Giles
I'm probably going to get it for this, but I say kill them. Kill them all. And while you're at it, release a biogenetical virus into the atmosphere which will wipe out all human life on Earth. I am not joking. Think of all the problems that would be solved by ‘removing’ our entire species. Let the insects take over, let the rabbits take over, hell, why not let the lowly bacteria take over as top dog? They can’t do any worse than we have. People are always killing and persecuting each over, and we always will do, its our nature, and in doing so we f*ck up the planet for the rest of life. Now, I know religious people will be able to answer this (supposedly), but what gives us the right to decide life and death of an entire planet? Think about it: "What makes human life more important than, say, a fly's?" Life is a process, one which is the same for a man and the same for a beast. [I forget where I read that line]. You cannot rate a process that is identical for different systems as being worth more for one than another. Sure, there are some people out there trying to make the world a better place, but for every one of them, there are fifty destroying it. Anyway, what was the question again? I think I’ve rambled a bit off course here. Oh yeah, the immigrants. As the removal of the human race is unlikely to be a popular solution (except with the Iraqis [jk]), I say you should give them supplies, medical treatment, etc, then send them back where they came from. No one ever won a fight by running away. If they stick with their miserable and difficult lives (by our standards) then any victory for them – no matter how small – will mean a lot more. If you can bring joy into a persons life, good for you. If they can do it themselves then it is good for them. Yours, James the Philosopher