I don't want to start a political discussion
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Actually, there's a "right way" to use GM versions that, for example, have a built-in pesticide. It's called a sacrificial field. It's a non-resistant small field (or fields) mixed in with the resistant ones in order to keep the pest's gene-pool non-resistant (or at least for a much longer time). Along with your bird thing: when you kill the snakes, you get the rodents. There was/is a computer game that simulated an ecosystem with three interdependent species: lions, wilddebeast, and grass. Kill off the lions and the wildebeast population explodes, they eat too much grass - and starve. Lots of grass means more wildebeest which can feed more lions that eat more of them. Always pushing back to a balance. Except if someone goes extinct.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
Actually, there's a "right way" to use GM versions that
The "right" way is to never bet on a single horse. You divide your chips. I wouldn't mind a GMO-ban in Europe; our food would become to expensive to export, but pretty certain that supermarkets would offer the choice - and I doubt there'd be a taste-difference.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Just one point - true for grapes, potatoes and a huge number of plants that are produced in commercially viable scales: Seedless or not, they are almost always clones. Nothing new - been around for centuries - many centuries. An interesting genuine example of where your idea about seedless propagation is proven all too true: the Irish Potato Famine - a blight. But every damn potato in the country was grown the way potatoes are always grown - started from little pieces of other potatoes. All had the same genetic makeup. There are a few types of bananas - and one of them is being massacred. All of it happened without GM'ing anything (in a lab) and might be stoppable by the lab work. Learning how to do that should be well perfected before it's urgent. Like sprinklers to help reduce the danger of fires. Science needs to reach into the unknown to learn and discover new things. The only guarantee of safety is to sit back in your cave and hope you can find some fire to keep the carnivores out.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
Nothing new - been around for centuries - many centuries.
I disagree in this. As a kid, in the fields surrounding the town where my mother was born, there were at least 5 different kind of grapes. Different colors, sizes and time slots for seeding, flowering and recollecting. Now... only one kind with 4 different types (colour and sweetnees). The canary islands had a local banana unique in the world. Not sure if they still have it, but if yes... then it is going to be very few units. The other kind had a bigger relation of productivity per m², the choice done by the people is obvious.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
Actually, there's a "right way" to use GM versions that
The "right" way is to never bet on a single horse. You divide your chips. I wouldn't mind a GMO-ban in Europe; our food would become to expensive to export, but pretty certain that supermarkets would offer the choice - and I doubt there'd be a taste-difference.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
Tell me - could you resist a tomato with capsicum genes built in? I call it "The Salsato" - salsa vine ripened and freshly picked.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Nelek wrote:
Do you agree with such experiments where we interfere that much with nature laws and could potentially explode in our face and be a big evil?
You mean like animal and plant "husbandry", where: • Pigs are bred to be fatter and fatter, until they can barely move? • Dogs are bred to the point where they can't give birth without human intervention? • Apples are bred for sweetness, to the point where they're basically sugar water, and less healthy than a bag of crisps (Leftpond "chips")? • Wheat is bred for yield, to the point where 40% of people have at least a mild allergy to it? Nah, it's not evil. It's just f***ing greedy and stupid, so, given it's led by the greed and stupidity of humans, don't expect it to ever stop.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
Mark_Wallace wrote:
It's just f***ing greedy and stupid, so, given it's led by the greed and stupidity of humans, don't expect it to ever stop.
I am not expecting it at all. I have already used the money and the human stupidity in some other messages below.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Tell me - could you resist a tomato with capsicum genes built in? I call it "The Salsato" - salsa vine ripened and freshly picked.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
I'm making pizza today. Would be awesome on it, no? If it can prove its value, it will sell, simple as that. Until that moment, I'd prefer for the world to not switch en masse.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
Nothing new - been around for centuries - many centuries.
I disagree in this. As a kid, in the fields surrounding the town where my mother was born, there were at least 5 different kind of grapes. Different colors, sizes and time slots for seeding, flowering and recollecting. Now... only one kind with 4 different types (colour and sweetnees). The canary islands had a local banana unique in the world. Not sure if they still have it, but if yes... then it is going to be very few units. The other kind had a bigger relation of productivity per m², the choice done by the people is obvious.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
Nelek wrote:
Different colors, sizes and time slots for seeding, flowering and recollecting. Now... only one kind with 4 different types (colour and sweetnees).
Nonetheless, before or after, all clones. That's the point. Complaining about seedless varieties is not a valid argument in the world of commercial farming. Not unless you don't mind someone, somewhere, starving. It's only useful in a "natural world" and a natural world wouldn't have seven or eight billion of us two-legged creatures eating and breeding. Worrying about what-if? There's always a "what if?" - but there's also a "What if we don't?" that could be worse . . . just a little bit later on.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Maximilien wrote:
You put trust in Salvini to tell the truth ?
As much as I'd trust Berlusconi with a loan or Cicciolina to keep her clothes on.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Nelek wrote:
Different colors, sizes and time slots for seeding, flowering and recollecting. Now... only one kind with 4 different types (colour and sweetnees).
Nonetheless, before or after, all clones. That's the point. Complaining about seedless varieties is not a valid argument in the world of commercial farming. Not unless you don't mind someone, somewhere, starving. It's only useful in a "natural world" and a natural world wouldn't have seven or eight billion of us two-legged creatures eating and breeding. Worrying about what-if? There's always a "what if?" - but there's also a "What if we don't?" that could be worse . . . just a little bit later on.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
and a natural world wouldn't have seven or eight billion of us two-legged creatures eating and breeding.
We will take care of that ourselves sooner or later. The big questions are "when?" and "will be only us? Or will we crash the world defintivelly in the process?"
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Who ? China did. France did, we have such a lab in the area of Lyon ! We had to pass a law for avoiding patents on biological livings and to stop gene manipulations or eugenics. These leads inexorably to human beings being transformed into men with no fear and no brain (so the perfect soldier). China even cloned a human being already. France has nuclear weapons. Enough to nuke the complete world. So what's the difference from the military point of view ? "Bioweapons" are at least as good mass destruction weapons as a deterrence strategy. Deterrence does not rely on killing others and controlling so that you are not touched by it, it relies on telling the others that there is nothing to win by attacking since nobody would survive at all. Plus bioterrorism is already a thing.[^] I am not telling that China or anyone has developed in a secret lab the Covid-19, this was clearly proved as a derivation of some animal virus. But this does not mean that nobody is developing some nasty things in an organized way and sponsored by goverments.
Rage wrote:
China did. France did, we have such a lab in the area of Lyon
Lots of countries got into genetics, in the early days of it, but we've learned a lot, since then, and one thing geneticists have learned is "don't mess with weaponising virals".
Rage wrote:
We had to pass a law for avoiding patents on biological livings and to stop gene manipulations or eugenics
AFAIK, the US still allows genetic sequence patenting, but that and eugenics are another thing -- as different from weaponising viruses as network administration is from coding in VB.
Rage wrote:
These leads inexorably to human beings being transformed into men with no fear and no brain (so the perfect soldier).
A much beloved concept in Sci-Fi, movies, and comics, but again, it could only be carried out by a totalitarian government, where the "Great Leader" is an object of worship.
Rage wrote:
China even cloned a human being already.
Fake news, I'm afraid, disseminated by rags like the Daily Mail. The proper docs show that they cloned stem cells from human embryos -- for medical purposes, like growing organs for transplant, and what have you. Again, chalk to bioweapons' cheese.
Rage wrote:
Deterrence does not rely on killing others and controlling so that you are not touched by it, it relies on telling the others that there is nothing to win by attacking since nobody would survive at all.
"You use bioweapons and we'll nuke you" is also a feasible deterrent.
Rage wrote:
Sure, in dictionaries and encyclopaedias (the only instance of it that I've heard of was carried out by US citizens on US citizens), but bioterrorism is just biowarfare carried out by a tiny army. They don't manufacture new viruses -- it's easier to make pipe bombs or fill bags with salomonella-infected slurry than splice bits of virus together.
Rage wrote:
this does not mean that nobody is developing some nasty things in an organized way and sponsored by goverments.
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Rage wrote:
China did. France did, we have such a lab in the area of Lyon ! We had to pass a law for avoiding patents on biological livings and to stop gene manipulations or eugenics. These leads inexorably to human beings being transformed into men with no fear and no brain (so the perfect soldier). China even cloned a human being already. France has nuclear weapons. Enough to nuke the complete world. So what's the difference from the military point of view ? "Bioweapons" are at least as good mass destruction weapons as a deterrence strategy. Deterrence does not rely on killing others and controlling so that you are not touched by it, it relies on telling the others that there is nothing to win by attacking since nobody would survive at all.
I think there is a lot behind this arguments, but that is enough for a new thread and can very fast degenerate into soapbox levels. Sadly :sigh:
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
Nelek wrote:
can very fast degenerate into soapbox levels. Sadly
Only if people stop discussing it as civilised people.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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If you look hard enough, (particularly on the internet), you will find some prediction/conspiracy theory for every possible event. You also need to bear in mind that TV program makers are more inclined to sensationalism, than facts. I'm betting Nostradamus also predicted it! :)
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I am not going for the "conspiracy" thread. I am not pointing to the chinese, and I already said that there are evidences (at least in Germany it is being told so) that it is not the same virus. The intention of message was to have a debate about the what risks are considered to be acceptable just for the sick of "science" The lab responsibles already said that they were just mixing things and creating a new variation just to see how it would behave. As it was not enough with natural mutations, that we have to interfere and do silly things that can explode in our face.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
Nelek wrote:
I am not pointing to the chinese, and I already said that there are evidences (at least in Germany it is being told so) that it is not the same virus.
To continue from yesterday: You should definitely watch this video[^] which I was only made aware of today... :omg:
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
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The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
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Never argue with a fool. Onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.
Mark Twain -
Nelek wrote:
I am not pointing to the chinese, and I already said that there are evidences (at least in Germany it is being told so) that it is not the same virus.
To continue from yesterday: You should definitely watch this video[^] which I was only made aware of today... :omg:
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
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The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
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Never argue with a fool. Onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.
Mark TwainThere are several videos with conspiracy theories. Some saying it was an accident. Some saying it was deliveratelly, to buy stocks of companies when the crash came. Some saying it was the USA who released it in china to accuse them afterwards. some saying... But leaving the conspiracies apart. One thing that I do consider true is that they should have told it before, maybe the effects worldwide could have been less dramatic. And another think I don't really believe (but this is only my opinion), that the numbers don't match. I think the number of affected and specially the number of deads is much higher that the official statistics are giving. I have information of expats living there for many years and have seen myself many asiatic countries... medical service is by far not that effective (at least not for the average joe, if you have money then is another thing), anyways... 3.9% deaths while in several west countries over 6%... I don't buy it.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.