Roman Empire: The reason of the lack of technology
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Their aqueducts were made with lead pipes, so the leadership became insane from lead poisoning. Hmmm...I wonder what the pipes in DC are made from. :laugh:
Latest Articles:
Abusing Extension Methods, Null Continuation, and Null Coalescence OperatorsThat's what they say, and that too, is incorrect. Lots of lead piping in the Netherlands. Yes, talking about the ones that carry drinking water.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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It's obvious: Their number system lacked a zero. So they had no way to terminate their C programs.
Get me coffee and no one gets hurt!
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Well, I think I've a response for this, but the situation in the Roman Empire was not too different from the 18 century in Europe, but curiously this did not lead to a Industrial Revolution, a knowledge explosion an so on. The reason, for me, was a tiny actor they lacked, one of the two main characters in computing. What do you thing could be the reason?
Every "Technology" has a predecessor technology. You can't have a toilet seat(N/A until 18th century) without a plumbing, running water and a sewage - read water pumping stations. You cant have a radio without basic understanding of electricity. You can't have electricity without advanced metallurgy. You cant have advanced metallurgy without understanding of chemistry. You can't build structures and super structures without understanding physics "Strength of materials". And pretty much list goes on.
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Every "Technology" has a predecessor technology. You can't have a toilet seat(N/A until 18th century) without a plumbing, running water and a sewage - read water pumping stations. You cant have a radio without basic understanding of electricity. You can't have electricity without advanced metallurgy. You cant have advanced metallurgy without understanding of chemistry. You can't build structures and super structures without understanding physics "Strength of materials". And pretty much list goes on.
Lots of people therefore conclude that no technology has been more advanced than the current one. That does not always hold true. One branch of technology, one society, may have developed to a quite advanced stage. Then some other society starts branching out, from a much earlier predecessor, a different kind of technology, which develops slowly while the first society is destroyed by war, epidemics or whatever. The second one may be the most advanced at the moment, but not the highest ever. And there is the question of metrics. While we think microelectronics is the greatest thing since sliced bread, other cultures may ask: What do you want that for? What's the real purpose of this tile with colors on one side changing all the time? What is the value of that? Why do you all feel that you are completely lost without it in your pocket? We have developed along quite different lines...
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I don't know about NVLL, but they certainly had NIL. Could it be that the Roman Empire collapsed because they wrote all their programs in PASCAL? :)
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
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Every "Technology" has a predecessor technology. You can't have a toilet seat(N/A until 18th century) without a plumbing, running water and a sewage - read water pumping stations. You cant have a radio without basic understanding of electricity. You can't have electricity without advanced metallurgy. You cant have advanced metallurgy without understanding of chemistry. You can't build structures and super structures without understanding physics "Strength of materials". And pretty much list goes on.
steveb wrote:
You can't have a toilet seat(N/A until 18th century) without a plumbing, running water and a sewage
The Romans had a quite sophisticated system of water delivery and sewage removal in Rome. One of the duties of the Praetorae Urbani (plural?) was to ensure that the adjutages of the pipes were not too large, so that private dwellings would not take more than their fair share of water. Note that these were gravity fed; no pumps in the modern sense existed.
steveb wrote:
You cant have advanced metallurgy without understanding of chemistry
The Romans (and the Japanese, for that matter) managed to produce very good swords by trial and error. While the Romans did not know why the ore from certain mines made good steel, they certainly knew how to use it. Europeans (and other cultures as well, but I'm less familiar with them) were using impressive technology long before the modern Solid-State Physics was known. Just look at some of the Roman aqueducts (still standing after more than 2,000 years), the medieval cathedral churches (tall walls, glass windows, support with flying buttresses, etc.), sailing ships, and many other examples.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
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altomaltes wrote:
They did not apply the concept "zero" to its numerical system, hence the lack of symbol; so, they could not handle too big or too little numbers and operate with it.
Yes, they can; even the year we live in.
altomaltes wrote:
It is impossible to develop chemical novelties, radio antenae, iron ships, major metal structcures without strong math.
"Strong" ehr? So how strong was it during the enlightment? You don't need big fakkin' math for an industrial revolution. Steam engines don't require math.
altomaltes wrote:
"The Void" is an indian concept. In fact the have ancient texts about it.
Nothing is a human concept; we start out with it.
altomaltes wrote:
Zero was invented by the indians
Zero was NOT invented; it existed long before the Indians had their character for it. OURS comes from the arabic culture, not the Indians.
altomaltes wrote:
Shortly after some mathematicians started their work and made technology possible.
Basic tech didn't require math. Not in any sense, and history proves so. And yes, I will defend that position until you come with something convincing. No math was required for the revolution, and Romans are a bit weird suggestion to start with.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
Quote:
You don't need big fakkin' math for an industrial revolution. Steam engines don't require math.
I see you've never worked with steam. Get a calculation wrong and all that will be left of you is a pink mist.
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Well, I think I've a response for this, but the situation in the Roman Empire was not too different from the 18 century in Europe, but curiously this did not lead to a Industrial Revolution, a knowledge explosion an so on. The reason, for me, was a tiny actor they lacked, one of the two main characters in computing. What do you thing could be the reason?
I am a hobbyist historian, and if there was something very different between the Roman Empire and the 18-19th century and that would have been the rise of the middle class. There was no such paradigm during the Roman Empire and it is commerce that drives the development of technology. It would also explain the excellent examples of technological practice during the Roman empire but in limited examples. The technology existed but was not readily available unless you could pay for it. Whereas those two elements were resolved ~1800 years later where more people had the resources to leverage tech and subsequently the remarkable change. This is also highly evident today with the low-cost proliferation of tech, and the availability of information. Imagine COVID hat hit during the 1990's? Video conferencing was 'available', but for the rich. No one could really work from home, and that would only be possible if you could afford the cost of a PC and the 14400 dial-up modem - so inefficient and limited.
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I am a hobbyist historian, and if there was something very different between the Roman Empire and the 18-19th century and that would have been the rise of the middle class. There was no such paradigm during the Roman Empire and it is commerce that drives the development of technology. It would also explain the excellent examples of technological practice during the Roman empire but in limited examples. The technology existed but was not readily available unless you could pay for it. Whereas those two elements were resolved ~1800 years later where more people had the resources to leverage tech and subsequently the remarkable change. This is also highly evident today with the low-cost proliferation of tech, and the availability of information. Imagine COVID hat hit during the 1990's? Video conferencing was 'available', but for the rich. No one could really work from home, and that would only be possible if you could afford the cost of a PC and the 14400 dial-up modem - so inefficient and limited.
Well, can be an egg and chicken problem, I does not know the concept of "deep state" fits for an historian. maybe Romans had one of these too.
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Their aqueducts were made with lead pipes, so the leadership became insane from lead poisoning. Hmmm...I wonder what the pipes in DC are made from. :laugh:
Latest Articles:
Abusing Extension Methods, Null Continuation, and Null Coalescence OperatorsHa, ha this is a good one.
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Romans were pretty good engineers. There are aqueducts that maintain a steady 4 degree angle, even through tunnels. Not to mention things like the 100 foot unreinforced concrete dome over the Pantheon in Rome, which is still the largest of its kind, some 2000 years later. I think if we were still using roman numerals, we would still be fine. We seem to be able to manage the calendar and all its weird and wonderful attributes. Speaking of which, Julius Caesar was able to reform the calendar in 46 BC, to within 99.99% of the tropical year. That's pretty good calculations for a number system without a zero, I'd say.
Keep Calm and Carry On
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Quote:
You don't need big fakkin' math for an industrial revolution. Steam engines don't require math.
I see you've never worked with steam. Get a calculation wrong and all that will be left of you is a pink mist.
That´s the main reason of the argument: No alive witnesses letf.
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Lots of people therefore conclude that no technology has been more advanced than the current one. That does not always hold true. One branch of technology, one society, may have developed to a quite advanced stage. Then some other society starts branching out, from a much earlier predecessor, a different kind of technology, which develops slowly while the first society is destroyed by war, epidemics or whatever. The second one may be the most advanced at the moment, but not the highest ever. And there is the question of metrics. While we think microelectronics is the greatest thing since sliced bread, other cultures may ask: What do you want that for? What's the real purpose of this tile with colors on one side changing all the time? What is the value of that? Why do you all feel that you are completely lost without it in your pocket? We have developed along quite different lines...
I absolutely agree, Tech have a huge black side. I suposse we humans as species are doomed to explore even that black side, and paid for it.
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altomaltes wrote:
They did not apply the concept "zero" to its numerical system, hence the lack of symbol; so, they could not handle too big or too little numbers and operate with it.
Yes, they can; even the year we live in.
altomaltes wrote:
It is impossible to develop chemical novelties, radio antenae, iron ships, major metal structcures without strong math.
"Strong" ehr? So how strong was it during the enlightment? You don't need big fakkin' math for an industrial revolution. Steam engines don't require math.
altomaltes wrote:
"The Void" is an indian concept. In fact the have ancient texts about it.
Nothing is a human concept; we start out with it.
altomaltes wrote:
Zero was invented by the indians
Zero was NOT invented; it existed long before the Indians had their character for it. OURS comes from the arabic culture, not the Indians.
altomaltes wrote:
Shortly after some mathematicians started their work and made technology possible.
Basic tech didn't require math. Not in any sense, and history proves so. And yes, I will defend that position until you come with something convincing. No math was required for the revolution, and Romans are a bit weird suggestion to start with.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^] "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
Quote:
And yes, I will defend that position until you come with something convincing.
Well that's your prerogative. We live in a free will realm, that is to say: A responsibility realm, is the same thing. This basically means you can act, speak or think the way you decide, and stick whith the consequences, both pleasant and unpleasant; sooner, later or simultaneously, if out withdraw the factor "time" from the equation. ( equating it to NULL )
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Romans were pretty good engineers. There are aqueducts that maintain a steady 4 degree angle, even through tunnels. Not to mention things like the 100 foot unreinforced concrete dome over the Pantheon in Rome, which is still the largest of its kind, some 2000 years later. I think if we were still using roman numerals, we would still be fine. We seem to be able to manage the calendar and all its weird and wonderful attributes. Speaking of which, Julius Caesar was able to reform the calendar in 46 BC, to within 99.99% of the tropical year. That's pretty good calculations for a number system without a zero, I'd say.
Keep Calm and Carry On
Killing off all the mathematicians, philosophers, and atomists, and burning their books in the 4th century may have had an influence.
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Romans were pretty good engineers. There are aqueducts that maintain a steady 4 degree angle, even through tunnels. Not to mention things like the 100 foot unreinforced concrete dome over the Pantheon in Rome, which is still the largest of its kind, some 2000 years later. I think if we were still using roman numerals, we would still be fine. We seem to be able to manage the calendar and all its weird and wonderful attributes. Speaking of which, Julius Caesar was able to reform the calendar in 46 BC, to within 99.99% of the tropical year. That's pretty good calculations for a number system without a zero, I'd say.
Keep Calm and Carry On
Yes, this and they had technology we still don't know about. Plenty of lost tech like this: Why 2,000 Year-Old Roman Concrete Is So Much Better Than What We Produce Today[^]
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Probably, they didn't need technology as they had a very, very cheap labour force: slaves. Both the Greeks and Romans knew of the steam engine* for example, but they didn't use it (except to make the gods look more exciting) as slaves did a better job, cheaper. * Or at least, a "starter engine": Aeolipile - Wikipedia[^]
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
OriginalGriff wrote:
Both the Greeks and Romans knew of the steam engine* for example, but they didn't use it (except to make the gods look more exciting) as slaves did a better job, cheaper.
They lacked the metallurgy needed to make the large pressure vessels needed for steam engines with useful power densities. At best they'd've been limited to low pressure models with performance ratings of IIRC less than a ton/horsepower that used so much coal they were only capable of being ran onsite at coal mines. And the industrial revolution began using water wheels, so arguments pointing to the ancients not taking advantage of steam power are totally blaming the wrong thing to begin with. :rolleyes:
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, weighing all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
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Well, I think I've a response for this, but the situation in the Roman Empire was not too different from the 18 century in Europe, but curiously this did not lead to a Industrial Revolution, a knowledge explosion an so on. The reason, for me, was a tiny actor they lacked, one of the two main characters in computing. What do you thing could be the reason?
Because they didn't know how? ;P ;P ;P
"Personal isn't the same as important" --Corporal Carrot, Nightwatch by Terry Pratchett
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steveb wrote:
You can't have a toilet seat(N/A until 18th century) without a plumbing, running water and a sewage
The Romans had a quite sophisticated system of water delivery and sewage removal in Rome. One of the duties of the Praetorae Urbani (plural?) was to ensure that the adjutages of the pipes were not too large, so that private dwellings would not take more than their fair share of water. Note that these were gravity fed; no pumps in the modern sense existed.
steveb wrote:
You cant have advanced metallurgy without understanding of chemistry
The Romans (and the Japanese, for that matter) managed to produce very good swords by trial and error. While the Romans did not know why the ore from certain mines made good steel, they certainly knew how to use it. Europeans (and other cultures as well, but I'm less familiar with them) were using impressive technology long before the modern Solid-State Physics was known. Just look at some of the Roman aqueducts (still standing after more than 2,000 years), the medieval cathedral churches (tall walls, glass windows, support with flying buttresses, etc.), sailing ships, and many other examples.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
-
Every "Technology" has a predecessor technology. You can't have a toilet seat(N/A until 18th century) without a plumbing, running water and a sewage - read water pumping stations. You cant have a radio without basic understanding of electricity. You can't have electricity without advanced metallurgy. You cant have advanced metallurgy without understanding of chemistry. You can't build structures and super structures without understanding physics "Strength of materials". And pretty much list goes on.
