Roman Empire: The reason of the lack of technology
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Their aqueducts were made with lead pipes, so the leadership became insane from lead poisoning. Hmmm...I wonder what the pipes in DC are made from. :laugh:
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You don't need big fakkin' math for an industrial revolution. Steam engines don't require math.
I see you've never worked with steam. Get a calculation wrong and all that will be left of you is a pink mist.
That´s the main reason of the argument: No alive witnesses letf.
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Lots of people therefore conclude that no technology has been more advanced than the current one. That does not always hold true. One branch of technology, one society, may have developed to a quite advanced stage. Then some other society starts branching out, from a much earlier predecessor, a different kind of technology, which develops slowly while the first society is destroyed by war, epidemics or whatever. The second one may be the most advanced at the moment, but not the highest ever. And there is the question of metrics. While we think microelectronics is the greatest thing since sliced bread, other cultures may ask: What do you want that for? What's the real purpose of this tile with colors on one side changing all the time? What is the value of that? Why do you all feel that you are completely lost without it in your pocket? We have developed along quite different lines...
I absolutely agree, Tech have a huge black side. I suposse we humans as species are doomed to explore even that black side, and paid for it.
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altomaltes wrote:
They did not apply the concept "zero" to its numerical system, hence the lack of symbol; so, they could not handle too big or too little numbers and operate with it.
Yes, they can; even the year we live in.
altomaltes wrote:
It is impossible to develop chemical novelties, radio antenae, iron ships, major metal structcures without strong math.
"Strong" ehr? So how strong was it during the enlightment? You don't need big fakkin' math for an industrial revolution. Steam engines don't require math.
altomaltes wrote:
"The Void" is an indian concept. In fact the have ancient texts about it.
Nothing is a human concept; we start out with it.
altomaltes wrote:
Zero was invented by the indians
Zero was NOT invented; it existed long before the Indians had their character for it. OURS comes from the arabic culture, not the Indians.
altomaltes wrote:
Shortly after some mathematicians started their work and made technology possible.
Basic tech didn't require math. Not in any sense, and history proves so. And yes, I will defend that position until you come with something convincing. No math was required for the revolution, and Romans are a bit weird suggestion to start with.
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And yes, I will defend that position until you come with something convincing.
Well that's your prerogative. We live in a free will realm, that is to say: A responsibility realm, is the same thing. This basically means you can act, speak or think the way you decide, and stick whith the consequences, both pleasant and unpleasant; sooner, later or simultaneously, if out withdraw the factor "time" from the equation. ( equating it to NULL )
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Romans were pretty good engineers. There are aqueducts that maintain a steady 4 degree angle, even through tunnels. Not to mention things like the 100 foot unreinforced concrete dome over the Pantheon in Rome, which is still the largest of its kind, some 2000 years later. I think if we were still using roman numerals, we would still be fine. We seem to be able to manage the calendar and all its weird and wonderful attributes. Speaking of which, Julius Caesar was able to reform the calendar in 46 BC, to within 99.99% of the tropical year. That's pretty good calculations for a number system without a zero, I'd say.
Keep Calm and Carry On
Killing off all the mathematicians, philosophers, and atomists, and burning their books in the 4th century may have had an influence.
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Romans were pretty good engineers. There are aqueducts that maintain a steady 4 degree angle, even through tunnels. Not to mention things like the 100 foot unreinforced concrete dome over the Pantheon in Rome, which is still the largest of its kind, some 2000 years later. I think if we were still using roman numerals, we would still be fine. We seem to be able to manage the calendar and all its weird and wonderful attributes. Speaking of which, Julius Caesar was able to reform the calendar in 46 BC, to within 99.99% of the tropical year. That's pretty good calculations for a number system without a zero, I'd say.
Keep Calm and Carry On
Yes, this and they had technology we still don't know about. Plenty of lost tech like this: Why 2,000 Year-Old Roman Concrete Is So Much Better Than What We Produce Today[^]
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Probably, they didn't need technology as they had a very, very cheap labour force: slaves. Both the Greeks and Romans knew of the steam engine* for example, but they didn't use it (except to make the gods look more exciting) as slaves did a better job, cheaper. * Or at least, a "starter engine": Aeolipile - Wikipedia[^]
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OriginalGriff wrote:
Both the Greeks and Romans knew of the steam engine* for example, but they didn't use it (except to make the gods look more exciting) as slaves did a better job, cheaper.
They lacked the metallurgy needed to make the large pressure vessels needed for steam engines with useful power densities. At best they'd've been limited to low pressure models with performance ratings of IIRC less than a ton/horsepower that used so much coal they were only capable of being ran onsite at coal mines. And the industrial revolution began using water wheels, so arguments pointing to the ancients not taking advantage of steam power are totally blaming the wrong thing to begin with. :rolleyes:
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, weighing all things in the balance of reason? Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful? --Zachris Topelius Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies. -- Sarah Hoyt
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Well, I think I've a response for this, but the situation in the Roman Empire was not too different from the 18 century in Europe, but curiously this did not lead to a Industrial Revolution, a knowledge explosion an so on. The reason, for me, was a tiny actor they lacked, one of the two main characters in computing. What do you thing could be the reason?
Because they didn't know how? ;P ;P ;P
"Personal isn't the same as important" --Corporal Carrot, Nightwatch by Terry Pratchett
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steveb wrote:
You can't have a toilet seat(N/A until 18th century) without a plumbing, running water and a sewage
The Romans had a quite sophisticated system of water delivery and sewage removal in Rome. One of the duties of the Praetorae Urbani (plural?) was to ensure that the adjutages of the pipes were not too large, so that private dwellings would not take more than their fair share of water. Note that these were gravity fed; no pumps in the modern sense existed.
steveb wrote:
You cant have advanced metallurgy without understanding of chemistry
The Romans (and the Japanese, for that matter) managed to produce very good swords by trial and error. While the Romans did not know why the ore from certain mines made good steel, they certainly knew how to use it. Europeans (and other cultures as well, but I'm less familiar with them) were using impressive technology long before the modern Solid-State Physics was known. Just look at some of the Roman aqueducts (still standing after more than 2,000 years), the medieval cathedral churches (tall walls, glass windows, support with flying buttresses, etc.), sailing ships, and many other examples.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
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Every "Technology" has a predecessor technology. You can't have a toilet seat(N/A until 18th century) without a plumbing, running water and a sewage - read water pumping stations. You cant have a radio without basic understanding of electricity. You can't have electricity without advanced metallurgy. You cant have advanced metallurgy without understanding of chemistry. You can't build structures and super structures without understanding physics "Strength of materials". And pretty much list goes on.
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Yes, this and they had technology we still don't know about. Plenty of lost tech like this: Why 2,000 Year-Old Roman Concrete Is So Much Better Than What We Produce Today[^]
I knew that Roman concrete was more durable that what we use now, but hadn't seen anything about why before!
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Well, I think I've a response for this, but the situation in the Roman Empire was not too different from the 18 century in Europe, but curiously this did not lead to a Industrial Revolution, a knowledge explosion an so on. The reason, for me, was a tiny actor they lacked, one of the two main characters in computing. What do you thing could be the reason?
Hmm, Actually, the first couple of passes of the plague had a big effect in stirring the social structure, BUT. The printing press: Gutenberg's about 1440 ( much slower printing before that ) by 1500 thee were presses "all over". Paper: possibly spread to the Islamic world from China ~750, hit Europe 13th century. ( Not as "good" as parchment but much cheaper. ) Compass, probably late 12th century in Europe. ( Small effect I think. ) Machine tools: this "is" the industrial revolution. Lathes had been around for a long time, a "near modern" lathe, metal bed, cross slide, gear head - all the parts you need to start making screws in production, was mid 18th century, but "the pieces to make the pieces" were developed over centuries. Cast iron, long history in China, not used in Europe until 15th century. Windmills: came into use in Europe in the 11th and 12th century. Not really important ( I think ) as waterwheels for pumping water and milling grain are pre-Roman. So, there was much that slowly developed from 600AD, some in Europe, most in the east ( China, India, the Islamic world ( for lack of a better phrase )) that enabled the later developments. So, some foundation, better communication ( not lots faster, but broader ), and a political environment of semi-constant conflict / competition between technological equals. We've gotten a lot from NASA's research. They got a lot from the navy's.
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Well, I think I've a response for this, but the situation in the Roman Empire was not too different from the 18 century in Europe, but curiously this did not lead to a Industrial Revolution, a knowledge explosion an so on. The reason, for me, was a tiny actor they lacked, one of the two main characters in computing. What do you thing could be the reason?
Just define what you mean by "technology". As you mentioned, they had plenty of common things shared with the 18th century, but not with centuries before, that we take for granted today which can be considered technology. To give some examples: - All roads were paved with marble which was an analog to modern concrete paving. - Homes in Crete and Pompeii have been found with Glass Windows. - Aqueducts carried fresh clean water and home sewerage was freely available. - Propaganda and even advertisements were plastered in the wall. - A full electoral and democratic system was in place, similar to the constitutional monarchies of the late 18th. - Carriages were modern, structured and a full profession was set to tend them and care for them. - All public plazas and city streets were illuminated at night using several types of oil lamps - Intercity communication was accomplished by a structured system led by the Military which was organized and heavily equipped. - Reading and writing was common place and a detailed calendar was used. - Scientific schools and libraries were heavily maintained and most knowledge was open sourced. - Public performances and (some) freedom of expression was carried out. So yes, they didn't have planes, trains nor automobiles, but remember that all of these required a prolonged time of peace and stability which couldn't be achieved until after the end of the Napoleonic wars and was broken by World War One. So basically what happened was that the convoluted 18 century was followed a dramatic beginning of the 19th century, but once the ideas of the French Revolution took hold during the reign of Napoleon III and most of Europe was involved in the Spring of Nations, the liberal way of thinking prevailed and free enterprise transformed the monarchical Europe since the Middle Ages into the Modern Europe of the 19th Century, on the Roman side, the Empire started on the wrong foot with the intervention of Palestine in the 1st and 2nd Century. Things literally went South when Christianity prevailed and the downward spiral ended with the divesture of the Empire in the 6th century. 1000 years had to pass for things to settle down and things could return to the "Old Normality". Would that be the case today? \#YouTellMe
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Well, I think I've a response for this, but the situation in the Roman Empire was not too different from the 18 century in Europe, but curiously this did not lead to a Industrial Revolution, a knowledge explosion an so on. The reason, for me, was a tiny actor they lacked, one of the two main characters in computing. What do you thing could be the reason?
The situation in the 18th century was very different. The 18th century had several breakthrough ideas and products that the Romans lacked: calculus, gunpowder, printing press, discovery of the Americas, magnetic compass and clocks, to name a few. But the biggest difference was the “scientific method”. The belief that you could decipher nature by observation, hypothesis and experiment. In Roman times, understanding of nature was only attempted by “logic”. Hence, Aristotle and other Greek philosophers were considered the experts and no one doubted them. You can’t have an Industrial Revolution without science. Engineering by itself isn’t enough.
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The situation in the 18th century was very different. The 18th century had several breakthrough ideas and products that the Romans lacked: calculus, gunpowder, printing press, discovery of the Americas, magnetic compass and clocks, to name a few. But the biggest difference was the “scientific method”. The belief that you could decipher nature by observation, hypothesis and experiment. In Roman times, understanding of nature was only attempted by “logic”. Hence, Aristotle and other Greek philosophers were considered the experts and no one doubted them. You can’t have an Industrial Revolution without science. Engineering by itself isn’t enough.
OK, so we discovered gunpowder. In some other parts of the world, it had been known for a thousand yeard. We got magnetic compasses. Others had been using compasses for around a thousand years. I am quite sure that the redskins discovered America long time before Columbus. Even long before Leiv Eriksson. Mechanical devices for measuring time was known in the 13th century, even in Europe. Sundials was known in prehistoric times. To name a few.
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Well, I think I've a response for this, but the situation in the Roman Empire was not too different from the 18 century in Europe, but curiously this did not lead to a Industrial Revolution, a knowledge explosion an so on. The reason, for me, was a tiny actor they lacked, one of the two main characters in computing. What do you thing could be the reason?
Well their mathematics was not as good, hence their physic was not as good, hence their tools were not as good...
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OK, so we discovered gunpowder. In some other parts of the world, it had been known for a thousand yeard. We got magnetic compasses. Others had been using compasses for around a thousand years. I am quite sure that the redskins discovered America long time before Columbus. Even long before Leiv Eriksson. Mechanical devices for measuring time was known in the 13th century, even in Europe. Sundials was known in prehistoric times. To name a few.
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I don't know about NVLL, but they certainly had NIL. Could it be that the Roman Empire collapsed because they wrote all their programs in PASCAL? :)
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
Daniel Pfeffer wrote:
the Roman Empire collapsed because they wrote all their programs in PASCAL
No - if that were the case they wouldn't have collapsed - they would have gone out in a Blaise of glory!
If you can't laugh at yourself - ask me and I will do it for you.
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The situation in the 18th century was very different. The 18th century had several breakthrough ideas and products that the Romans lacked: calculus, gunpowder, printing press, discovery of the Americas, magnetic compass and clocks, to name a few. But the biggest difference was the “scientific method”. The belief that you could decipher nature by observation, hypothesis and experiment. In Roman times, understanding of nature was only attempted by “logic”. Hence, Aristotle and other Greek philosophers were considered the experts and no one doubted them. You can’t have an Industrial Revolution without science. Engineering by itself isn’t enough.
You have done a pretty good description of the situation (let's call it data ) But we can take a look to the reason ( the code )
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calculus
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“scientific method”
Are these two possible whitout the elusive zero? You can have some basic geometry (ask Pitagoras, althougt not Roman), but no algebra. I absolutely agree with the print machine. This one does need great math to be developed, and plays a main role in the science. The reason of this post is that many times people mistakes existence and reality. Zero, as well as space lacks existence ( no mass, no energy, no information ) but both overflow reality.
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You have done a pretty good description of the situation (let's call it data ) But we can take a look to the reason ( the code )
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calculus
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“scientific method”
Are these two possible whitout the elusive zero? You can have some basic geometry (ask Pitagoras, althougt not Roman), but no algebra. I absolutely agree with the print machine. This one does need great math to be developed, and plays a main role in the science. The reason of this post is that many times people mistakes existence and reality. Zero, as well as space lacks existence ( no mass, no energy, no information ) but both overflow reality.
Your argument is valid. Certainly the invention of zero preceded all of the examples I mentioned. And was a prerequisite for calculus and science in general. In fact, it pushes back the time when the situation in European was about the same as imperial Rome to no later than the 13th century. My argument was only about whether the situation in the 18th century was similar to Rome. It wasn’t even close.
