Roman Empire: The reason of the lack of technology
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Every "Technology" has a predecessor technology. You can't have a toilet seat(N/A until 18th century) without a plumbing, running water and a sewage - read water pumping stations. You cant have a radio without basic understanding of electricity. You can't have electricity without advanced metallurgy. You cant have advanced metallurgy without understanding of chemistry. You can't build structures and super structures without understanding physics "Strength of materials". And pretty much list goes on.
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Yes, this and they had technology we still don't know about. Plenty of lost tech like this: Why 2,000 Year-Old Roman Concrete Is So Much Better Than What We Produce Today[^]
I knew that Roman concrete was more durable that what we use now, but hadn't seen anything about why before!
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Well, I think I've a response for this, but the situation in the Roman Empire was not too different from the 18 century in Europe, but curiously this did not lead to a Industrial Revolution, a knowledge explosion an so on. The reason, for me, was a tiny actor they lacked, one of the two main characters in computing. What do you thing could be the reason?
Hmm, Actually, the first couple of passes of the plague had a big effect in stirring the social structure, BUT. The printing press: Gutenberg's about 1440 ( much slower printing before that ) by 1500 thee were presses "all over". Paper: possibly spread to the Islamic world from China ~750, hit Europe 13th century. ( Not as "good" as parchment but much cheaper. ) Compass, probably late 12th century in Europe. ( Small effect I think. ) Machine tools: this "is" the industrial revolution. Lathes had been around for a long time, a "near modern" lathe, metal bed, cross slide, gear head - all the parts you need to start making screws in production, was mid 18th century, but "the pieces to make the pieces" were developed over centuries. Cast iron, long history in China, not used in Europe until 15th century. Windmills: came into use in Europe in the 11th and 12th century. Not really important ( I think ) as waterwheels for pumping water and milling grain are pre-Roman. So, there was much that slowly developed from 600AD, some in Europe, most in the east ( China, India, the Islamic world ( for lack of a better phrase )) that enabled the later developments. So, some foundation, better communication ( not lots faster, but broader ), and a political environment of semi-constant conflict / competition between technological equals. We've gotten a lot from NASA's research. They got a lot from the navy's.
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Well, I think I've a response for this, but the situation in the Roman Empire was not too different from the 18 century in Europe, but curiously this did not lead to a Industrial Revolution, a knowledge explosion an so on. The reason, for me, was a tiny actor they lacked, one of the two main characters in computing. What do you thing could be the reason?
Just define what you mean by "technology". As you mentioned, they had plenty of common things shared with the 18th century, but not with centuries before, that we take for granted today which can be considered technology. To give some examples: - All roads were paved with marble which was an analog to modern concrete paving. - Homes in Crete and Pompeii have been found with Glass Windows. - Aqueducts carried fresh clean water and home sewerage was freely available. - Propaganda and even advertisements were plastered in the wall. - A full electoral and democratic system was in place, similar to the constitutional monarchies of the late 18th. - Carriages were modern, structured and a full profession was set to tend them and care for them. - All public plazas and city streets were illuminated at night using several types of oil lamps - Intercity communication was accomplished by a structured system led by the Military which was organized and heavily equipped. - Reading and writing was common place and a detailed calendar was used. - Scientific schools and libraries were heavily maintained and most knowledge was open sourced. - Public performances and (some) freedom of expression was carried out. So yes, they didn't have planes, trains nor automobiles, but remember that all of these required a prolonged time of peace and stability which couldn't be achieved until after the end of the Napoleonic wars and was broken by World War One. So basically what happened was that the convoluted 18 century was followed a dramatic beginning of the 19th century, but once the ideas of the French Revolution took hold during the reign of Napoleon III and most of Europe was involved in the Spring of Nations, the liberal way of thinking prevailed and free enterprise transformed the monarchical Europe since the Middle Ages into the Modern Europe of the 19th Century, on the Roman side, the Empire started on the wrong foot with the intervention of Palestine in the 1st and 2nd Century. Things literally went South when Christianity prevailed and the downward spiral ended with the divesture of the Empire in the 6th century. 1000 years had to pass for things to settle down and things could return to the "Old Normality". Would that be the case today? \#YouTellMe
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Well, I think I've a response for this, but the situation in the Roman Empire was not too different from the 18 century in Europe, but curiously this did not lead to a Industrial Revolution, a knowledge explosion an so on. The reason, for me, was a tiny actor they lacked, one of the two main characters in computing. What do you thing could be the reason?
The situation in the 18th century was very different. The 18th century had several breakthrough ideas and products that the Romans lacked: calculus, gunpowder, printing press, discovery of the Americas, magnetic compass and clocks, to name a few. But the biggest difference was the “scientific method”. The belief that you could decipher nature by observation, hypothesis and experiment. In Roman times, understanding of nature was only attempted by “logic”. Hence, Aristotle and other Greek philosophers were considered the experts and no one doubted them. You can’t have an Industrial Revolution without science. Engineering by itself isn’t enough.
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The situation in the 18th century was very different. The 18th century had several breakthrough ideas and products that the Romans lacked: calculus, gunpowder, printing press, discovery of the Americas, magnetic compass and clocks, to name a few. But the biggest difference was the “scientific method”. The belief that you could decipher nature by observation, hypothesis and experiment. In Roman times, understanding of nature was only attempted by “logic”. Hence, Aristotle and other Greek philosophers were considered the experts and no one doubted them. You can’t have an Industrial Revolution without science. Engineering by itself isn’t enough.
OK, so we discovered gunpowder. In some other parts of the world, it had been known for a thousand yeard. We got magnetic compasses. Others had been using compasses for around a thousand years. I am quite sure that the redskins discovered America long time before Columbus. Even long before Leiv Eriksson. Mechanical devices for measuring time was known in the 13th century, even in Europe. Sundials was known in prehistoric times. To name a few.
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Well, I think I've a response for this, but the situation in the Roman Empire was not too different from the 18 century in Europe, but curiously this did not lead to a Industrial Revolution, a knowledge explosion an so on. The reason, for me, was a tiny actor they lacked, one of the two main characters in computing. What do you thing could be the reason?
Well their mathematics was not as good, hence their physic was not as good, hence their tools were not as good...
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OK, so we discovered gunpowder. In some other parts of the world, it had been known for a thousand yeard. We got magnetic compasses. Others had been using compasses for around a thousand years. I am quite sure that the redskins discovered America long time before Columbus. Even long before Leiv Eriksson. Mechanical devices for measuring time was known in the 13th century, even in Europe. Sundials was known in prehistoric times. To name a few.
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I don't know about NVLL, but they certainly had NIL. Could it be that the Roman Empire collapsed because they wrote all their programs in PASCAL? :)
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
Daniel Pfeffer wrote:
the Roman Empire collapsed because they wrote all their programs in PASCAL
No - if that were the case they wouldn't have collapsed - they would have gone out in a Blaise of glory!
If you can't laugh at yourself - ask me and I will do it for you.
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The situation in the 18th century was very different. The 18th century had several breakthrough ideas and products that the Romans lacked: calculus, gunpowder, printing press, discovery of the Americas, magnetic compass and clocks, to name a few. But the biggest difference was the “scientific method”. The belief that you could decipher nature by observation, hypothesis and experiment. In Roman times, understanding of nature was only attempted by “logic”. Hence, Aristotle and other Greek philosophers were considered the experts and no one doubted them. You can’t have an Industrial Revolution without science. Engineering by itself isn’t enough.
You have done a pretty good description of the situation (let's call it data ) But we can take a look to the reason ( the code )
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calculus
Quote:
“scientific method”
Are these two possible whitout the elusive zero? You can have some basic geometry (ask Pitagoras, althougt not Roman), but no algebra. I absolutely agree with the print machine. This one does need great math to be developed, and plays a main role in the science. The reason of this post is that many times people mistakes existence and reality. Zero, as well as space lacks existence ( no mass, no energy, no information ) but both overflow reality.
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You have done a pretty good description of the situation (let's call it data ) But we can take a look to the reason ( the code )
Quote:
calculus
Quote:
“scientific method”
Are these two possible whitout the elusive zero? You can have some basic geometry (ask Pitagoras, althougt not Roman), but no algebra. I absolutely agree with the print machine. This one does need great math to be developed, and plays a main role in the science. The reason of this post is that many times people mistakes existence and reality. Zero, as well as space lacks existence ( no mass, no energy, no information ) but both overflow reality.
Your argument is valid. Certainly the invention of zero preceded all of the examples I mentioned. And was a prerequisite for calculus and science in general. In fact, it pushes back the time when the situation in European was about the same as imperial Rome to no later than the 13th century. My argument was only about whether the situation in the 18th century was similar to Rome. It wasn’t even close.
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Well, I think I've a response for this, but the situation in the Roman Empire was not too different from the 18 century in Europe, but curiously this did not lead to a Industrial Revolution, a knowledge explosion an so on. The reason, for me, was a tiny actor they lacked, one of the two main characters in computing. What do you thing could be the reason?
'Necessity is the mother of invention' - since Rome ruled the known world and had the strongest military force perhaps they didn't feel much need to innovate any further. One might think that better medicine would have been an incentive, but they probably believed their fate to be in the lap of the gods.