Why isn't C# more popular?
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I've experimented with a lot of languages over the years and delivered production code in at least a handful. Of all, I find C# to be the most genial. It has syntax close enough to C/C++ not to alienate those programmers, has plenty of high-level stuff to keep users of languages such as Java happy, and these days has good performance and is open and cross-platform. The only thing I hate about it is the terrible 'destructor' pattern, which you can ignore most of the time. Despite all of this, I rarely if ever read a headline that says C# is gaining in popularity. There's no point in getting into too many syntax specifics because that would be a never-ending discussion but why does it fail to hit the spot with so many developers and companies?
Thank you to anyone taking the time to read my posts.
My $0.02: Is your question really why isn't C# number 1? I think it is very popular. I also think the so-called surveys are probably skewed somewhat towards website development. With more and more applications moving to the Internet and DYI frameworks and such popping up, there is more emphasis on other languages for those developers. Read Javascript. People want to run stuff on other servers. Methinks that the MS push was for developers to write C# applications and run them on Windows servers in Azure. Then, they discovered that many of the servers on Azure were Linux. Same servers would run on AWS, maybe for less $. So, how to make these companies stay within the Microsoft ecosystem? They seem to be working hard on stuff like Blazor and Typescript to push ahead and, I suspect, this will also push C#. We are looking at Blazor for an IoT application via Oqtane (an application framework based on Blazor). It has many warts and bugs in V1. Open source project with limited number of developers. I suspect that we may be trying to fit a round peg into a square hole but I want to pursue it and learn some stuff.
If you can keep your head while those about you are losing theirs, perhaps you don't understand the situation.
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Good points. 1. true, but you can do unmanaged stuff in C# and you can interface fairly easy with any C++ components 2. I disagree here. The investment can be done over time and #1 could help here. Is there a cost, absolutely, but far less then migrating to completely other tools. 3. Can you give examples? Most libraries are as easy or as difficult as in any other language, it more depends on who made the libraries. The C# framework itself is well documented and well supported. What's holding C# back is, I think (no expert) the lack of support in devices like TV's, phones, tablets or other platforms (macOS/Linux) and therefore cross-platform integrations.
V.
V. wrote:
but you can do unmanaged stuff in C# and you can interface fairly easy with any C++ components
Yes, you could write the UI (for example) of the system tools in C#, but why bother? It just adds another requirement (and another failure point) to the system.
V. wrote:
The investment can be done over time and #1 could help here. Is there a cost, absolutely, but far less then migrating to completely other tools.
I did not say that it could not be done. I did say that because of the cost it is unlikely to be done, giving the prevalence of Cobol as an example of a similar case.
V. wrote:
Can you give examples?
It's not that learning the libraries is more difficult than learning the libraries available for other languages. The issue is the conversion costs - you have to take a productive programmer, expert in C or C++, and turn him into a novice C# programmer. It is true that he/she will eventually learn the C# way of doing things, but in the meantime - they will be less productive. Many companies are unwilling or can't afford to pay this cost.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
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I've experimented with a lot of languages over the years and delivered production code in at least a handful. Of all, I find C# to be the most genial. It has syntax close enough to C/C++ not to alienate those programmers, has plenty of high-level stuff to keep users of languages such as Java happy, and these days has good performance and is open and cross-platform. The only thing I hate about it is the terrible 'destructor' pattern, which you can ignore most of the time. Despite all of this, I rarely if ever read a headline that says C# is gaining in popularity. There's no point in getting into too many syntax specifics because that would be a never-ending discussion but why does it fail to hit the spot with so many developers and companies?
Thank you to anyone taking the time to read my posts.
In my own experience the reason it is not too popular are the following: 1) Platform. Most features are Windows specific. It builds heavily on the .NET framework which is complete only on Windows. C++ with QT is just as platform independent. 1bis) Platform. Most devs today work either on web based stuff or on embedded (as in Renesas, ATMel and other) stuff. On the former there are more widespread tools, on the latter you have 128 kb of RAM and 2 MB of flash with stringent real time issues, g'luck with C#. 2) .NET framework is not that great. It requires heavy installation on the target and has backward compatibility issues. 3) .NET has terrible documentation, mostly autogenerated. The learning curve is steep and the MS way is to keep changing stuff so once you master it you're already outdated and have to spend money and time again to regain mastery - which will be outdated by the time you reach it. 4) Performance. No matter what the fanbois say, C/C++ is faster and uses less memory, epsecially because C/C++ developers are forced to know what they are doing instead of going commando with memory usage. 5) Security. C# software is perceived as much more likely to be reverse engineered through the generated ILASM than software decompiled from binary. Wether this is true or not it (I'm not so sure it is actually any easier) in my experience it has been one of the most common reasons for the language to be vetoed by the customers.
GCS d--(d+) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
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I've experimented with a lot of languages over the years and delivered production code in at least a handful. Of all, I find C# to be the most genial. It has syntax close enough to C/C++ not to alienate those programmers, has plenty of high-level stuff to keep users of languages such as Java happy, and these days has good performance and is open and cross-platform. The only thing I hate about it is the terrible 'destructor' pattern, which you can ignore most of the time. Despite all of this, I rarely if ever read a headline that says C# is gaining in popularity. There's no point in getting into too many syntax specifics because that would be a never-ending discussion but why does it fail to hit the spot with so many developers and companies?
Thank you to anyone taking the time to read my posts.
because it's an MS product.
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I've experimented with a lot of languages over the years and delivered production code in at least a handful. Of all, I find C# to be the most genial. It has syntax close enough to C/C++ not to alienate those programmers, has plenty of high-level stuff to keep users of languages such as Java happy, and these days has good performance and is open and cross-platform. The only thing I hate about it is the terrible 'destructor' pattern, which you can ignore most of the time. Despite all of this, I rarely if ever read a headline that says C# is gaining in popularity. There's no point in getting into too many syntax specifics because that would be a never-ending discussion but why does it fail to hit the spot with so many developers and companies?
Thank you to anyone taking the time to read my posts.
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CodeWraith wrote:
an egg laying wool milk sow.
that's quite a tweedy moofull :wtf:
«One day it will have to be officially admitted that what we have christened reality is an even greater illusion than the world of dreams.» Salvador Dali
Nothing for vegetarians :-)
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats. His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
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CodeWraith wrote:
Too much comfort makes programmers ignorant and lazy.
In different words I've said the same thing for years. Pointer, namespaces, enumerations, everything all use the dot-separator. For those who don't know better, meaning those who learned this with C/C++ first, they are all the same. They look the same, don't they? Double colons and -> ? They're not so terribly hard to type and keep one informed of what the hell's going on.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Microsoft seems to think they are. They also seem to think that deleting what you allocate is far too much to ask of programmers.
"They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers! Can I get an amen?"
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I've experimented with a lot of languages over the years and delivered production code in at least a handful. Of all, I find C# to be the most genial. It has syntax close enough to C/C++ not to alienate those programmers, has plenty of high-level stuff to keep users of languages such as Java happy, and these days has good performance and is open and cross-platform. The only thing I hate about it is the terrible 'destructor' pattern, which you can ignore most of the time. Despite all of this, I rarely if ever read a headline that says C# is gaining in popularity. There's no point in getting into too many syntax specifics because that would be a never-ending discussion but why does it fail to hit the spot with so many developers and companies?
Thank you to anyone taking the time to read my posts.
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Microsoft seems to think they are. They also seem to think that deleting what you allocate is far too much to ask of programmers.
"They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers! Can I get an amen?"
Rick York wrote:
They also seem to think that deleting what you allocate is far too much to ask of programmers.
And to think - when I discovered alloca() and used it in functions I felt like I was cheating ! Oh Brave* New World! * Brave, but maybe not to clever? Perhaps MS knows their smart-phone encrusted clientele all too well.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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My $0.02: 1. For all its advantages, C#, like Java, is unsuited to system-level programming. The kernel in both Windows and Linux is programmed in C and ASM. 2. Many organizations have an investment in C and C++ code. Conversion to C# would require a major investment. Note that this is also one of the reasons that companies keep using Cobol, so I don't see this changing in the near future. 3. C# does have a serious learning curve - not for the language, but for its libraries. If you have learnt to do things in C or C++, converting to C# is far from simple.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
Daniel Pfeffer wrote:
1. For all its advantages, C#, like Java, is unsuited to system-level programming. The kernel in both Windows and Linux is programmed in C and ASM.
C# isn't really designed for system-level programming. It's designed for building applications. In that regard after 12 years of using it, I find it's remarkably fluent and concise. That said, I have used it for several Windows services with no trouble.
Daniel Pfeffer wrote:
2. Many organizations have an investment in C and C++ code. Conversion to C# would require a major investment. Note that this is also one of the reasons that companies keep using Cobol, so I don't see this changing in the near future.
That's true for any language, not just C#.
Daniel Pfeffer wrote:
3. C# does have a serious learning curve - not for the language, but for its libraries. If you have learnt to do things in C or C++, converting to C# is far from simple.
True. When I started in C#/WPF back in 2008, it took me quite a while to grasp one of the fundamentals of .NET programming: it's in there. C++ and MFC require that you build some application basics yourself. Many of those basics are already present in .NET and whatever UI framework you choose. Instead of saying to yourself "OK, how do I wrap the primitive crap in something elegant in order to make this work", like you do so often in C++, Windows API, and MFC, it's "there's got to be something to do this in .NET; the question is where?"
Software Zen:
delete this; -
I've experimented with a lot of languages over the years and delivered production code in at least a handful. Of all, I find C# to be the most genial. It has syntax close enough to C/C++ not to alienate those programmers, has plenty of high-level stuff to keep users of languages such as Java happy, and these days has good performance and is open and cross-platform. The only thing I hate about it is the terrible 'destructor' pattern, which you can ignore most of the time. Despite all of this, I rarely if ever read a headline that says C# is gaining in popularity. There's no point in getting into too many syntax specifics because that would be a never-ending discussion but why does it fail to hit the spot with so many developers and companies?
Thank you to anyone taking the time to read my posts.
It's too old now. Still my current go-to language, but it's been twenty years.
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because it's an MS product.
cue: sound of Alexander cutting the Gordian Knot :omg:
«One day it will have to be officially admitted that what we have christened reality is an even greater illusion than the world of dreams.» Salvador Dali
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I've experimented with a lot of languages over the years and delivered production code in at least a handful. Of all, I find C# to be the most genial. It has syntax close enough to C/C++ not to alienate those programmers, has plenty of high-level stuff to keep users of languages such as Java happy, and these days has good performance and is open and cross-platform. The only thing I hate about it is the terrible 'destructor' pattern, which you can ignore most of the time. Despite all of this, I rarely if ever read a headline that says C# is gaining in popularity. There's no point in getting into too many syntax specifics because that would be a never-ending discussion but why does it fail to hit the spot with so many developers and companies?
Thank you to anyone taking the time to read my posts.
Using one of Microsoft's user-friendly Web wrappers, pull the text from a 404 page. EG: Use WebClient / HttpClient / Etc to pull the
Do not try and find the page. That’s impossible. Instead only try to realise the truth
text from https://www.codeproject.com/woof/index.aspx[^] To follow best practices, only use exceptions when there is an error you are not expecting. I'm all for C#, but it does have its issues.
-= Reelix =-
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It's too old now. Still my current go-to language, but it's been twenty years.
Takes me 20 years to learn a language! :confused:
Thank you to anyone taking the time to read my posts.
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Using one of Microsoft's user-friendly Web wrappers, pull the text from a 404 page. EG: Use WebClient / HttpClient / Etc to pull the
Do not try and find the page. That’s impossible. Instead only try to realise the truth
text from https://www.codeproject.com/woof/index.aspx[^] To follow best practices, only use exceptions when there is an error you are not expecting. I'm all for C#, but it does have its issues.
-= Reelix =-
Part II of the cutting of my programming teeth was in the video game world, using C++, where the rule was that exceptions are very much last-resort, only for events that should not happen and are generally unrecoverable, at least without some kind of restart. One thing I have often found difficult in C# is trying to avoid exceptions. Even when I have tried to do exceptions properly and catch the correct type etc., I find the program gets worse, not better, because, without looking up every single API call, you never know what exceptions might be thrown. Addiction recovery begins with admission so I will now admit here that I usually end with a
catch( Exception ) {}. To me, in a language, it is as if you need one of two things: either a slimline composite return type that encapsulates any return value and also some kind of error indication (I know - dangerously close to the error return codes of old Win32 programming); or you need two basic types of exception - real ones that should ideally never happen, and a more everyday exception meaning, "Something has gone wrong in my code so don't continue using this value I am about to return to you."Thank you to anyone taking the time to read my posts.
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Good points. 1. true, but you can do unmanaged stuff in C# and you can interface fairly easy with any C++ components 2. I disagree here. The investment can be done over time and #1 could help here. Is there a cost, absolutely, but far less then migrating to completely other tools. 3. Can you give examples? Most libraries are as easy or as difficult as in any other language, it more depends on who made the libraries. The C# framework itself is well documented and well supported. What's holding C# back is, I think (no expert) the lack of support in devices like TV's, phones, tablets or other platforms (macOS/Linux) and therefore cross-platform integrations.
V.
It's also valid in the opposite direction: with some time invested you can do the job in C++, which is a more performant language, that has it's own huge collection of (mostly) cross-platform libraries. I would also add to the list of issues the lack of compatibility between different .net versions.
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I've experimented with a lot of languages over the years and delivered production code in at least a handful. Of all, I find C# to be the most genial. It has syntax close enough to C/C++ not to alienate those programmers, has plenty of high-level stuff to keep users of languages such as Java happy, and these days has good performance and is open and cross-platform. The only thing I hate about it is the terrible 'destructor' pattern, which you can ignore most of the time. Despite all of this, I rarely if ever read a headline that says C# is gaining in popularity. There's no point in getting into too many syntax specifics because that would be a never-ending discussion but why does it fail to hit the spot with so many developers and companies?
Thank you to anyone taking the time to read my posts.
why isn't Microsoft more popular? 1. C# is a feature language. they constantly add new features. although this seems the only way for a language, for me it's the least preferable. i adore languages that have a mission to fulfill and that's it. the creators of those languages had to make compromises upfront. C (portable assembly) is one such language. LISP, Lua, Go, Component Pascal, TCL, FORTH... all small languages. 2. i don't know if this is 100% true, but i bet that C#'s philosophy at the time of it's inception, was same as Java's. only OOP is good, everything else is inferior. for me that's like what Hitler used to preach. I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times. Bruce Lee
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why isn't Microsoft more popular? 1. C# is a feature language. they constantly add new features. although this seems the only way for a language, for me it's the least preferable. i adore languages that have a mission to fulfill and that's it. the creators of those languages had to make compromises upfront. C (portable assembly) is one such language. LISP, Lua, Go, Component Pascal, TCL, FORTH... all small languages. 2. i don't know if this is 100% true, but i bet that C#'s philosophy at the time of it's inception, was same as Java's. only OOP is good, everything else is inferior. for me that's like what Hitler used to preach. I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times. Bruce Lee
Don't they continually add to C++? After a few years break, I recently returned to C++ and could barely read what I was seeing. There's truth in what you say and obviously you have an absolute right to your opinion but I honestly think some people justifiably decided to hate Microsoft in the late 90s and have never looked again.
Thank you to anyone taking the time to read my posts.
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I've experimented with a lot of languages over the years and delivered production code in at least a handful. Of all, I find C# to be the most genial. It has syntax close enough to C/C++ not to alienate those programmers, has plenty of high-level stuff to keep users of languages such as Java happy, and these days has good performance and is open and cross-platform. The only thing I hate about it is the terrible 'destructor' pattern, which you can ignore most of the time. Despite all of this, I rarely if ever read a headline that says C# is gaining in popularity. There's no point in getting into too many syntax specifics because that would be a never-ending discussion but why does it fail to hit the spot with so many developers and companies?
Thank you to anyone taking the time to read my posts.
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Don't they continually add to C++? After a few years break, I recently returned to C++ and could barely read what I was seeing. There's truth in what you say and obviously you have an absolute right to your opinion but I honestly think some people justifiably decided to hate Microsoft in the late 90s and have never looked again.
Thank you to anyone taking the time to read my posts.
that is a huge problem and i can't understand why it is happening. imagine you know C++, JavaScript and say Rust. you work at a company. large scale project that involves all three languages or at least two. 6 years latter you leave this company and go to work on a fresh new project at a new company. once again it involves C++, JS and Rust or at least two of them. so now, because there were C++ x20 and C++ 2023, ECMAScript 2019..2025 and Rust 3.x 4.x and the newest Rust 2025 (they will change it to some other naming version) you don't know any of the languages you have worked with for the last 6 years in continuation. a common book on good programming practices is on average 400-500 pages, but the core stuff would be 200 pages. those good programming practices that will make a competitive programmer write better code in FORTRAN and COBOL that a beginner in the safest programming langue in the world. how do we get from 200 pages of good programming advice to a stream of a dozen languages that endlessly evolve every year? "justifiably decided to hate Microsoft in the late 90s and have never looked again." C# was designed by Anders Hejlsberg of Borland. the creator of Turbo Pascal and Delphi. Microsoft destroyed Borland and many many other companies so they can give away money for charity? instead of giving away money for charity they could have taken away less from other companies. nothing i say is against you or your opinion. it is only my opinion. i don't like C# because it is class oriented and because it is from Microsoft.