Dominion Voting Systems
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How many of you - as developers - are taken aback by the revelations concerning the state of Dominion Voting Systems? Why would any self-respecting developer agree to write code in such a way as to allow subversion of its targeted purpose? What retard decided that storing vote counts as floating point numbers was a "good idea"? ANYBODY that's been a developer for any length of time knows damn well that when you do math with floating point numbers, the result is an *approximation*. and is therefore not accurate. Even more importantly, why would anyone use software that was demonstrably accuracy-challenged and so easily corrupted?
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013Knowing where the "revelations" come from: it is just another case of total b******t. Yes: floating point may cause a slight difference or rounding error here or there but they pale into insignificance. Only total ignorance and the wish to peddle that to those who don't have a clue either is the reason behind spreading this. Being a long time developer I know better, no way on earth do you lose "millions of votes" because of it, you only have yourself to thank for that.
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How many of you - as developers - are taken aback by the revelations concerning the state of Dominion Voting Systems? Why would any self-respecting developer agree to write code in such a way as to allow subversion of its targeted purpose? What retard decided that storing vote counts as floating point numbers was a "good idea"? ANYBODY that's been a developer for any length of time knows damn well that when you do math with floating point numbers, the result is an *approximation*. and is therefore not accurate. Even more importantly, why would anyone use software that was demonstrably accuracy-challenged and so easily corrupted?
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013#realJSOP wrote:
What retard decided that storing vote counts as floating point numbers was a "good idea"?
It's not a good idea, but it doesn't seem to be as bad as you are implying. You would have to do far more testing than this simple program, and on the specific hardware of the machines, but on my machine it doesn't change the count by a single vote, even when using almost three times more people than there are in the US.
#include <iostream>
int main() {
__int64 test = 0;
double d = 0;
for (int i=0; i<16777216; ++i) {
d = d + 1;
}
std::cout << d << std::endl;d = 0;
for (__int64 i=0; i<1000000000; ++i) {
d = d+1;
}
std::cout << d;
return 0;
} -
How many of you - as developers - are taken aback by the revelations concerning the state of Dominion Voting Systems? Why would any self-respecting developer agree to write code in such a way as to allow subversion of its targeted purpose? What retard decided that storing vote counts as floating point numbers was a "good idea"? ANYBODY that's been a developer for any length of time knows damn well that when you do math with floating point numbers, the result is an *approximation*. and is therefore not accurate. Even more importantly, why would anyone use software that was demonstrably accuracy-challenged and so easily corrupted?
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013Python developers maybe? :laugh: However, I am reminded of when I was first learning to write programs in BASIC-PLUS on a PDP-11 in 1983, the book clearly states: "floating point calculations are more accurate than integer calculations" and "integers have a range only from -32768% to +32767%" We did everything in floating point and had no idea why anyone would ever use integers. (OK, VAXBASIC uses 32-bit integers.)
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#realJSOP wrote:
What retard decided that storing vote counts as floating point numbers was a "good idea"?
It's not a good idea, but it doesn't seem to be as bad as you are implying. You would have to do far more testing than this simple program, and on the specific hardware of the machines, but on my machine it doesn't change the count by a single vote, even when using almost three times more people than there are in the US.
#include <iostream>
int main() {
__int64 test = 0;
double d = 0;
for (int i=0; i<16777216; ++i) {
d = d + 1;
}
std::cout << d << std::endl;d = 0;
for (__int64 i=0; i<1000000000; ++i) {
d = d+1;
}
std::cout << d;
return 0;
}What about with single-precision?
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What about with single-precision?
Change the
doubletofloatand try. And change the 10 billion to 16777215. Still no votes changed on my system. -
The world runs on Excel spreadsheets. No matter how complicated, finely crafted, or expensive the system is that's put in place, someone, somewhere falls back to managing it all on a spreadsheet.
cheers Chris Maunder
I have read on occasion that here in America, both Democrat and Republican campaign strategists do most of their number crunching using spreadsheets. So yes, I agree completely with what you posted. In fact, most people I know that crunch numbers for a living use spreadsheets extensively.
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How many of you - as developers - are taken aback by the revelations concerning the state of Dominion Voting Systems? Why would any self-respecting developer agree to write code in such a way as to allow subversion of its targeted purpose? What retard decided that storing vote counts as floating point numbers was a "good idea"? ANYBODY that's been a developer for any length of time knows damn well that when you do math with floating point numbers, the result is an *approximation*. and is therefore not accurate. Even more importantly, why would anyone use software that was demonstrably accuracy-challenged and so easily corrupted?
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013Come on John. As someone who writes code for a living, you know better than this. It really doesn't matter the type when dealing with integers. In a float, 1.0 + 1.0 still equals 2.0. Even accounting for representation inaccuracies, which you know always happens on the fractional side, how many votes would you have to count by adding 1.0 before you get anywhere near an integer misrepresentation by addition? How great would the error really be? A couple of votes in either direction?
Asking questions is a skill CodeProject Forum Guidelines Google: C# How to debug code Seriously, go read these articles.
Dave Kreskowiak -
I have read on occasion that here in America, both Democrat and Republican campaign strategists do most of their number crunching using spreadsheets. So yes, I agree completely with what you posted. In fact, most people I know that crunch numbers for a living use spreadsheets extensively.
I do as well - they are powerful and really flexible. But ... once the data goes over a couple hundred rows, I move it to a DB and a C# app. 65K rows? Not nice, not at all. Mind you, I used to work for someone who did all his stores, manufacturing, accounts, personnel - the whole damn company in fact - on a single sheet spreadsheet. It took about 20 minutes to load, and when it recalculated prices you went for a coffee. Worked for years though!
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony "Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Given that world population is much smaller than 264 (~1019), I would think that using a ulong (C#) or unsigned long long (C or C++) would be more than adequate. Even assuming that human population doubles every 35 years, this still gives room for ~30-31 doublings, which will take ~1050-1085 years. In 3070 I expect to be safely retired. :laugh:
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
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How many of you - as developers - are taken aback by the revelations concerning the state of Dominion Voting Systems? Why would any self-respecting developer agree to write code in such a way as to allow subversion of its targeted purpose? What retard decided that storing vote counts as floating point numbers was a "good idea"? ANYBODY that's been a developer for any length of time knows damn well that when you do math with floating point numbers, the result is an *approximation*. and is therefore not accurate. Even more importantly, why would anyone use software that was demonstrably accuracy-challenged and so easily corrupted?
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013For the floating voter of course! :rolleyes:
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For the floating voter of course! :rolleyes:
Best, Sander Azure DevOps Succinctly (free eBook) Azure Serverless Succinctly (free eBook) Migrating Apps to the Cloud with Azure arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript
Ghost voters! We've had them in Chicago for quite a while now. :) GHOST VOTERS RAISE SPECTER OF SHADY ELECTION - Chicago Tribune[^]
"the debugger doesn't tell me anything because this code compiles just fine" - random QA comment "Facebook is where you tell lies to your friends. Twitter is where you tell the truth to strangers." - chriselst "I don't drink any more... then again, I don't drink any less." - Mike Mullikins uncle
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I do as well - they are powerful and really flexible. But ... once the data goes over a couple hundred rows, I move it to a DB and a C# app. 65K rows? Not nice, not at all. Mind you, I used to work for someone who did all his stores, manufacturing, accounts, personnel - the whole damn company in fact - on a single sheet spreadsheet. It took about 20 minutes to load, and when it recalculated prices you went for a coffee. Worked for years though!
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony "Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
OriginalGriff wrote:
65K rows? Not nice, not at all.
:thumbsup: agreed.
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A max int has been 2,147,483,647 since BEFORE dominion wrote their software. There are significantly fewer than 2 billion voters in the entire U.S.. There is *no excuse* for using a floating point value.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013 -
I do as well - they are powerful and really flexible. But ... once the data goes over a couple hundred rows, I move it to a DB and a C# app. 65K rows? Not nice, not at all. Mind you, I used to work for someone who did all his stores, manufacturing, accounts, personnel - the whole damn company in fact - on a single sheet spreadsheet. It took about 20 minutes to load, and when it recalculated prices you went for a coffee. Worked for years though!
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony "Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
I once wrote a cost analysis system for Hyundai that took 90 minutes to recalculate. I was disgusted with it as it only got within 1m of reality, the boss was ecstatic, he could only get within 10m using his system.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity - RAH I'm old. I know stuff - JSOP
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How many of you - as developers - are taken aback by the revelations concerning the state of Dominion Voting Systems? Why would any self-respecting developer agree to write code in such a way as to allow subversion of its targeted purpose? What retard decided that storing vote counts as floating point numbers was a "good idea"? ANYBODY that's been a developer for any length of time knows damn well that when you do math with floating point numbers, the result is an *approximation*. and is therefore not accurate. Even more importantly, why would anyone use software that was demonstrably accuracy-challenged and so easily corrupted?
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013#realJSOP wrote:
Why would any self-respecting developer agree to write code in such a way as to allow subversion of its targeted purpose?
No, you misunderstand, the software did perform its purpose. It was originally developed in Venezuela to help Hugo Chavez win "elections."
#realJSOP wrote:
Even more importantly, why would anyone use software that was demonstrably accuracy-challenged and so easily corrupted?
Could the fact that Nancy Pelosi's husband has an ownership stake in the company have anything to do with it?
The difficult we do right away... ...the impossible takes slightly longer.
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How many of you - as developers - are taken aback by the revelations concerning the state of Dominion Voting Systems? Why would any self-respecting developer agree to write code in such a way as to allow subversion of its targeted purpose? What retard decided that storing vote counts as floating point numbers was a "good idea"? ANYBODY that's been a developer for any length of time knows damn well that when you do math with floating point numbers, the result is an *approximation*. and is therefore not accurate. Even more importantly, why would anyone use software that was demonstrably accuracy-challenged and so easily corrupted?
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013Lots of reasons I can think of for designs that seem to not make sense (and obviously not all of these apply to the system we're talking about) - the person ultimately responsible for making the decision didn't know what questions to ask and/or didn't understand the technology - the person responsible was pressured by a superior to make a bad call - the product was chosen based on a relationship/favour, and not because it was the best/cheapest option - the product was created by a consultancy service that had a bunch of devs on staff (eg COBOL) that it couldn't find work on so architected the project to use a technology that would allow it to bill the idle bodies (I'm looking at you, new Australian Taxation System) - the decision was made due to security / technology / hardware / resource reasons that, once you understand the constraints, actually make sense for that application - the system was based off a system that's based off a system that's based etc etc and has proven to be solid and reliable and hence reduced uncertainty. (Ask Boeing how well this strategy works over time) I'm sure there's a bunch of reasons that made sense at the time. They may not make sense now, however. But who's going to invest the money to redo something when "it just works" (I should add some asterixis to that)
cheers Chris Maunder
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It may have depended on the outcome the developer wanted - a disputable result!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity - RAH I'm old. I know stuff - JSOP
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How many of you - as developers - are taken aback by the revelations concerning the state of Dominion Voting Systems? Why would any self-respecting developer agree to write code in such a way as to allow subversion of its targeted purpose? What retard decided that storing vote counts as floating point numbers was a "good idea"? ANYBODY that's been a developer for any length of time knows damn well that when you do math with floating point numbers, the result is an *approximation*. and is therefore not accurate. Even more importantly, why would anyone use software that was demonstrably accuracy-challenged and so easily corrupted?
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013Who you want to be fired? The Dev who made the count variable to be 'float'? What makes you think it's Dev problem? What if it's intentionally done from upper management. IMHO, I think the Chief should be fired. :laugh:
The best way to make your dreams come true is to wake up. Paul Valery
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How many of you - as developers - are taken aback by the revelations concerning the state of Dominion Voting Systems? Why would any self-respecting developer agree to write code in such a way as to allow subversion of its targeted purpose? What retard decided that storing vote counts as floating point numbers was a "good idea"? ANYBODY that's been a developer for any length of time knows damn well that when you do math with floating point numbers, the result is an *approximation*. and is therefore not accurate. Even more importantly, why would anyone use software that was demonstrably accuracy-challenged and so easily corrupted?
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013I'm not taken aback at all, in fact I'll go as far as to say that it might be the best way to design such a system! The idea that Dominion stores vote counts in a floating-point format seems to come from a NIST publication[^] describing a reporting standard. I don't think it's been proven that the Dominion software uses the described format, though I would not find it at all surprising if it did. This is an open standard, the creation of which involved the expertise of very smart, thoughtful, and experienced people, probably with strong knowledge of the problem domain. They are named as authors, if you question their work you may look them up and contact them to find out for yourself what their motivations were. The standard specifies that aggregate vote counts are reported as double-precision floating-point numbers, which it says "can include a f[r]actional component in special cases" (though the nature of such special cases is not described). How individual votes are stored in the machines is not specified (as this is intended as a generalized rather than machine-specific standard), the document only addresses how counts are aggregated for the purpose of reporting. Even if individual votes were recorded by a voting machine as a floating-point whole number (again, a fact which is not in evidence), it would require astronomically more addition operations than there are voters (let alone people) in the U.S. in order to reach a rounding error of even a single vote. In short, you can't possibly be certain that there's a problem here, but even your worst case scenario would result in effectively zero inaccuracy in the reported counts from the various Dominion systems in use.
