Honesty, Tact and Software Developers
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Let's face it - there's a high percentage of software developers who have great technical skill but whose people skills leave something to be desired. I'm one of them. I've encountered a lot of others too. I don't think it's a bad thing. Especially where it concerns matters of what is possible, and what isn't, and what will work, and what won't the question comes down to "Do you want honest, or nice?" The rest is just in how you deliver it. So delivery aside, given the situation where it's one or the other: Many developers would place a premium on honesty. Many folks with "soft skills" would place a premium on nice. The people that need the honesty the most - because of their tendency to be unrealistic when it comes to technical matters - is the folks with the soft skills. The only way out of this double-bind is diplomacy - the art of telling someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. This is not easy. Sometimes it's not even possible - like - "your {family member} died" and developers often don't have the social skillset to do that consistently. And sometimes even when I hear developers talk to each other they take things personally. A lot of times probably part of it is due to the emotional investment in the project they are discussing - but other times it's just people expecting "nice" and getting "honest" - other developers do it too. So I guess we can come off as a bit salty. But you know what? You're going to get the truth. I think we can all benefit in general from remembering not to take things personally. And some of us can benefit from practicing a little tact. None of this is intended as judgment. Just honest observation..
Real programmers use butterflies
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Let's face it - there's a high percentage of software developers who have great technical skill but whose people skills leave something to be desired. I'm one of them. I've encountered a lot of others too. I don't think it's a bad thing. Especially where it concerns matters of what is possible, and what isn't, and what will work, and what won't the question comes down to "Do you want honest, or nice?" The rest is just in how you deliver it. So delivery aside, given the situation where it's one or the other: Many developers would place a premium on honesty. Many folks with "soft skills" would place a premium on nice. The people that need the honesty the most - because of their tendency to be unrealistic when it comes to technical matters - is the folks with the soft skills. The only way out of this double-bind is diplomacy - the art of telling someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. This is not easy. Sometimes it's not even possible - like - "your {family member} died" and developers often don't have the social skillset to do that consistently. And sometimes even when I hear developers talk to each other they take things personally. A lot of times probably part of it is due to the emotional investment in the project they are discussing - but other times it's just people expecting "nice" and getting "honest" - other developers do it too. So I guess we can come off as a bit salty. But you know what? You're going to get the truth. I think we can all benefit in general from remembering not to take things personally. And some of us can benefit from practicing a little tact. None of this is intended as judgment. Just honest observation..
Real programmers use butterflies
honey the codewitch wrote:
Many developers would place a premium on honesty.
not just developers, but people in general. Honesty is not always polite.
honey the codewitch wrote:
I think we can all benefit in general from remembering not to take things personally.
what is the context for this post? just curious.
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honey the codewitch wrote:
Many developers would place a premium on honesty.
not just developers, but people in general. Honesty is not always polite.
honey the codewitch wrote:
I think we can all benefit in general from remembering not to take things personally.
what is the context for this post? just curious.
Slacker007 wrote:
not just developers, but people in general.
I wish I could agree with you on that score. My faith in humanity isn't what yours is, I guess. I admire your optimism where people are concerned, even if I can't share it.
Slacker007 wrote:
what is the context for this post? just curious.
Just something that was said on the forums a little while ago that made me think of it. I didn't write it to call anyone out so that's as much as I'll say about that. The thoughts weren't directed at anyone in particular.
Real programmers use butterflies
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Slacker007 wrote:
not just developers, but people in general.
I wish I could agree with you on that score. My faith in humanity isn't what yours is, I guess. I admire your optimism where people are concerned, even if I can't share it.
Slacker007 wrote:
what is the context for this post? just curious.
Just something that was said on the forums a little while ago that made me think of it. I didn't write it to call anyone out so that's as much as I'll say about that. The thoughts weren't directed at anyone in particular.
Real programmers use butterflies
I think a lot of people are stupid as dirt and they will believe anything, and because of that they think it is truth and the other person is being honest. honesty is relative....and not polite.
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honey the codewitch wrote:
Many developers would place a premium on honesty.
not just developers, but people in general. Honesty is not always polite.
honey the codewitch wrote:
I think we can all benefit in general from remembering not to take things personally.
what is the context for this post? just curious.
Slacker007 wrote:
what is the context for this post? just curious.
Life. It is a constant struggle to deal with people who use emotion to make decisions, and will happily "throw you under a bus" just to get what they want. The desire for praise over doing the right thing. People who actually have the capacity to hate, then will act on that to make themselves feel better for 2 minutes. People suck.
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Let's face it - there's a high percentage of software developers who have great technical skill but whose people skills leave something to be desired. I'm one of them. I've encountered a lot of others too. I don't think it's a bad thing. Especially where it concerns matters of what is possible, and what isn't, and what will work, and what won't the question comes down to "Do you want honest, or nice?" The rest is just in how you deliver it. So delivery aside, given the situation where it's one or the other: Many developers would place a premium on honesty. Many folks with "soft skills" would place a premium on nice. The people that need the honesty the most - because of their tendency to be unrealistic when it comes to technical matters - is the folks with the soft skills. The only way out of this double-bind is diplomacy - the art of telling someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. This is not easy. Sometimes it's not even possible - like - "your {family member} died" and developers often don't have the social skillset to do that consistently. And sometimes even when I hear developers talk to each other they take things personally. A lot of times probably part of it is due to the emotional investment in the project they are discussing - but other times it's just people expecting "nice" and getting "honest" - other developers do it too. So I guess we can come off as a bit salty. But you know what? You're going to get the truth. I think we can all benefit in general from remembering not to take things personally. And some of us can benefit from practicing a little tact. None of this is intended as judgment. Just honest observation..
Real programmers use butterflies
When dealing with peers or subordinates, tact is important when giving criticism. Focus on the specific thing(s) that need to be improved, offer helpful suggestions, and don't make it personal. In my experience, those who needed honesty the most were senior management and executives. Too many people were reluctant to tell them sad truths or engage them in debate. They were also susceptible to being bamboozled by technical people who promised things that couldn't be delivered or touted designs as if they'd already been coded and proven, when in reality they'd been prototyped at best, and it was debatable whether they could ever be productized.
Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing. -
When dealing with peers or subordinates, tact is important when giving criticism. Focus on the specific thing(s) that need to be improved, offer helpful suggestions, and don't make it personal. In my experience, those who needed honesty the most were senior management and executives. Too many people were reluctant to tell them sad truths or engage them in debate. They were also susceptible to being bamboozled by technical people who promised things that couldn't be delivered or touted designs as if they'd already been coded and proven, when in reality they'd been prototyped at best, and it was debatable whether they could ever be productized.
Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.Greg Utas wrote:
and don't make it personal
Tell that to the person on the other end. People have a skill of turning **anything** into a personal attack.
Greg Utas wrote:
Too many people were reluctant to tell them sad truths or engage them in debate
Unfortunately, if you step up to be that person, you just become "the problem employee who is difficult to work with".
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Let's face it - there's a high percentage of software developers who have great technical skill but whose people skills leave something to be desired. I'm one of them. I've encountered a lot of others too. I don't think it's a bad thing. Especially where it concerns matters of what is possible, and what isn't, and what will work, and what won't the question comes down to "Do you want honest, or nice?" The rest is just in how you deliver it. So delivery aside, given the situation where it's one or the other: Many developers would place a premium on honesty. Many folks with "soft skills" would place a premium on nice. The people that need the honesty the most - because of their tendency to be unrealistic when it comes to technical matters - is the folks with the soft skills. The only way out of this double-bind is diplomacy - the art of telling someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. This is not easy. Sometimes it's not even possible - like - "your {family member} died" and developers often don't have the social skillset to do that consistently. And sometimes even when I hear developers talk to each other they take things personally. A lot of times probably part of it is due to the emotional investment in the project they are discussing - but other times it's just people expecting "nice" and getting "honest" - other developers do it too. So I guess we can come off as a bit salty. But you know what? You're going to get the truth. I think we can all benefit in general from remembering not to take things personally. And some of us can benefit from practicing a little tact. None of this is intended as judgment. Just honest observation..
Real programmers use butterflies
honey the codewitch wrote:
Do you want honest, or nice?" The rest is just in how you deliver it.
It's possible to be honest and nice. Up to a point. When honesty demands that the message is "you people are a bunch of incompetent morons", well, nice becomes something that falls more into the "will I lose my job if I'm honest" category than actually being nice.
honey the codewitch wrote:
But you know what? You're going to get the truth.
Rarely do people actually want to hear the truth.
honey the codewitch wrote:
None of this is intended as judgment. Just honest observation..
And you were so nice about it! :laugh:
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Greg Utas wrote:
and don't make it personal
Tell that to the person on the other end. People have a skill of turning **anything** into a personal attack.
Greg Utas wrote:
Too many people were reluctant to tell them sad truths or engage them in debate
Unfortunately, if you step up to be that person, you just become "the problem employee who is difficult to work with".
All you can do is your best. But there's no cure for snowflakes. I never had a problem being candid with senior management types. But then again, I never had to deal with them until I was indispensable. :laugh:
Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing. -
All you can do is your best. But there's no cure for snowflakes. I never had a problem being candid with senior management types. But then again, I never had to deal with them until I was indispensable. :laugh:
Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing. -
Greg Utas wrote:
But then again, I never had to deal with them until I was indispensable.
:laugh: Yeah... I think that goes in my favour more than I care to admit (to myself).
But then again, a memorable quote is, "The graveyards are filled with people who were indispensable." :laugh:
Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing. -
Let's face it - there's a high percentage of software developers who have great technical skill but whose people skills leave something to be desired. I'm one of them. I've encountered a lot of others too. I don't think it's a bad thing. Especially where it concerns matters of what is possible, and what isn't, and what will work, and what won't the question comes down to "Do you want honest, or nice?" The rest is just in how you deliver it. So delivery aside, given the situation where it's one or the other: Many developers would place a premium on honesty. Many folks with "soft skills" would place a premium on nice. The people that need the honesty the most - because of their tendency to be unrealistic when it comes to technical matters - is the folks with the soft skills. The only way out of this double-bind is diplomacy - the art of telling someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. This is not easy. Sometimes it's not even possible - like - "your {family member} died" and developers often don't have the social skillset to do that consistently. And sometimes even when I hear developers talk to each other they take things personally. A lot of times probably part of it is due to the emotional investment in the project they are discussing - but other times it's just people expecting "nice" and getting "honest" - other developers do it too. So I guess we can come off as a bit salty. But you know what? You're going to get the truth. I think we can all benefit in general from remembering not to take things personally. And some of us can benefit from practicing a little tact. None of this is intended as judgment. Just honest observation..
Real programmers use butterflies
Having been downsized because I was honest about management and they didn't want to hear it(they asked). I find myself now being more careful in my wording. I have the is it worth my job conversation with myself quite often. Don't get me wrong here. I like my job alot. But I won't ever again be in the position of having to look for work just because some manager got her/his panties/underwear in a knot because they couldn't hand some well worded but honest feedback. I am at a point in my life where I know it won't matter tomorrow and won't make a difference in the short or long run. So keeping my mouth shut is the best for me. I look out for #1. That being said. I think most people say they would rather have honesty. But also most people don't like honesty when it is said to them. And if you word it in a way that isn't honest they will think you are talking about someone else. Most people are not introspective enough to see themselves for who they truly are. I think programmers for the most part are not these people.
To err is human to really elephant it up you need a computer
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Having been downsized because I was honest about management and they didn't want to hear it(they asked). I find myself now being more careful in my wording. I have the is it worth my job conversation with myself quite often. Don't get me wrong here. I like my job alot. But I won't ever again be in the position of having to look for work just because some manager got her/his panties/underwear in a knot because they couldn't hand some well worded but honest feedback. I am at a point in my life where I know it won't matter tomorrow and won't make a difference in the short or long run. So keeping my mouth shut is the best for me. I look out for #1. That being said. I think most people say they would rather have honesty. But also most people don't like honesty when it is said to them. And if you word it in a way that isn't honest they will think you are talking about someone else. Most people are not introspective enough to see themselves for who they truly are. I think programmers for the most part are not these people.
To err is human to really elephant it up you need a computer
rnbergren wrote:
I am at a point in my life where I know it won't matter tomorrow and won't make a difference in the short or long run. So keeping my mouth shut is the best for me. I look out for #1.
This is the sad truth... no matter how good our intentions are at the start, we get knocked back so often, that we are forced to resorting into being selfish. I guess as much as we might want an ideal world, we have to accept human nature, and just ride the train until it's out turn to get off.
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Let's face it - there's a high percentage of software developers who have great technical skill but whose people skills leave something to be desired. I'm one of them. I've encountered a lot of others too. I don't think it's a bad thing. Especially where it concerns matters of what is possible, and what isn't, and what will work, and what won't the question comes down to "Do you want honest, or nice?" The rest is just in how you deliver it. So delivery aside, given the situation where it's one or the other: Many developers would place a premium on honesty. Many folks with "soft skills" would place a premium on nice. The people that need the honesty the most - because of their tendency to be unrealistic when it comes to technical matters - is the folks with the soft skills. The only way out of this double-bind is diplomacy - the art of telling someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. This is not easy. Sometimes it's not even possible - like - "your {family member} died" and developers often don't have the social skillset to do that consistently. And sometimes even when I hear developers talk to each other they take things personally. A lot of times probably part of it is due to the emotional investment in the project they are discussing - but other times it's just people expecting "nice" and getting "honest" - other developers do it too. So I guess we can come off as a bit salty. But you know what? You're going to get the truth. I think we can all benefit in general from remembering not to take things personally. And some of us can benefit from practicing a little tact. None of this is intended as judgment. Just honest observation..
Real programmers use butterflies
I used to have great people skills but since getting older I find it harder to put up with peoples BS and so I've become somewhat of a recluse.
The less you need, the more you have. JaxCoder.com
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Let's face it - there's a high percentage of software developers who have great technical skill but whose people skills leave something to be desired. I'm one of them. I've encountered a lot of others too. I don't think it's a bad thing. Especially where it concerns matters of what is possible, and what isn't, and what will work, and what won't the question comes down to "Do you want honest, or nice?" The rest is just in how you deliver it. So delivery aside, given the situation where it's one or the other: Many developers would place a premium on honesty. Many folks with "soft skills" would place a premium on nice. The people that need the honesty the most - because of their tendency to be unrealistic when it comes to technical matters - is the folks with the soft skills. The only way out of this double-bind is diplomacy - the art of telling someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. This is not easy. Sometimes it's not even possible - like - "your {family member} died" and developers often don't have the social skillset to do that consistently. And sometimes even when I hear developers talk to each other they take things personally. A lot of times probably part of it is due to the emotional investment in the project they are discussing - but other times it's just people expecting "nice" and getting "honest" - other developers do it too. So I guess we can come off as a bit salty. But you know what? You're going to get the truth. I think we can all benefit in general from remembering not to take things personally. And some of us can benefit from practicing a little tact. None of this is intended as judgment. Just honest observation..
Real programmers use butterflies
Frequently, "nice" doesn't work and you need to shock the listener (boss) into realizing that what he believes to be true is not.
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But then again, a memorable quote is, "The graveyards are filled with people who were indispensable." :laugh:
Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing. -
Quote:
"The graveyards are filled with people who were indispensable knew they legally had the right of way." :omg:
FTFY
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
Also true!
Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing. -
Let's face it - there's a high percentage of software developers who have great technical skill but whose people skills leave something to be desired. I'm one of them. I've encountered a lot of others too. I don't think it's a bad thing. Especially where it concerns matters of what is possible, and what isn't, and what will work, and what won't the question comes down to "Do you want honest, or nice?" The rest is just in how you deliver it. So delivery aside, given the situation where it's one or the other: Many developers would place a premium on honesty. Many folks with "soft skills" would place a premium on nice. The people that need the honesty the most - because of their tendency to be unrealistic when it comes to technical matters - is the folks with the soft skills. The only way out of this double-bind is diplomacy - the art of telling someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. This is not easy. Sometimes it's not even possible - like - "your {family member} died" and developers often don't have the social skillset to do that consistently. And sometimes even when I hear developers talk to each other they take things personally. A lot of times probably part of it is due to the emotional investment in the project they are discussing - but other times it's just people expecting "nice" and getting "honest" - other developers do it too. So I guess we can come off as a bit salty. But you know what? You're going to get the truth. I think we can all benefit in general from remembering not to take things personally. And some of us can benefit from practicing a little tact. None of this is intended as judgment. Just honest observation..
Real programmers use butterflies
Someone (close) once said (screamed): "Why must you always be so logical!!". The alternative had no appeal.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it. ― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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I used to have great people skills but since getting older I find it harder to put up with peoples BS and so I've become somewhat of a recluse.
The less you need, the more you have. JaxCoder.com
relatable content
Real programmers use butterflies
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Frequently, "nice" doesn't work and you need to shock the listener (boss) into realizing that what he believes to be true is not.
I agree, and I hate being put in the position, but so often I'm left with the choice if letting them entertain something that will fail (and I'll inevitably be held responsible for anyway) or hoping that if I tell them the truth, they'll listen so we can actually make the project work. :rolleyes:
Real programmers use butterflies
