Honesty, Tact and Software Developers
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Greg Utas wrote:
and don't make it personal
Tell that to the person on the other end. People have a skill of turning **anything** into a personal attack.
Greg Utas wrote:
Too many people were reluctant to tell them sad truths or engage them in debate
Unfortunately, if you step up to be that person, you just become "the problem employee who is difficult to work with".
All you can do is your best. But there's no cure for snowflakes. I never had a problem being candid with senior management types. But then again, I never had to deal with them until I was indispensable. :laugh:
Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing. -
All you can do is your best. But there's no cure for snowflakes. I never had a problem being candid with senior management types. But then again, I never had to deal with them until I was indispensable. :laugh:
Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing. -
Greg Utas wrote:
But then again, I never had to deal with them until I was indispensable.
:laugh: Yeah... I think that goes in my favour more than I care to admit (to myself).
But then again, a memorable quote is, "The graveyards are filled with people who were indispensable." :laugh:
Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing. -
Let's face it - there's a high percentage of software developers who have great technical skill but whose people skills leave something to be desired. I'm one of them. I've encountered a lot of others too. I don't think it's a bad thing. Especially where it concerns matters of what is possible, and what isn't, and what will work, and what won't the question comes down to "Do you want honest, or nice?" The rest is just in how you deliver it. So delivery aside, given the situation where it's one or the other: Many developers would place a premium on honesty. Many folks with "soft skills" would place a premium on nice. The people that need the honesty the most - because of their tendency to be unrealistic when it comes to technical matters - is the folks with the soft skills. The only way out of this double-bind is diplomacy - the art of telling someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. This is not easy. Sometimes it's not even possible - like - "your {family member} died" and developers often don't have the social skillset to do that consistently. And sometimes even when I hear developers talk to each other they take things personally. A lot of times probably part of it is due to the emotional investment in the project they are discussing - but other times it's just people expecting "nice" and getting "honest" - other developers do it too. So I guess we can come off as a bit salty. But you know what? You're going to get the truth. I think we can all benefit in general from remembering not to take things personally. And some of us can benefit from practicing a little tact. None of this is intended as judgment. Just honest observation..
Real programmers use butterflies
Having been downsized because I was honest about management and they didn't want to hear it(they asked). I find myself now being more careful in my wording. I have the is it worth my job conversation with myself quite often. Don't get me wrong here. I like my job alot. But I won't ever again be in the position of having to look for work just because some manager got her/his panties/underwear in a knot because they couldn't hand some well worded but honest feedback. I am at a point in my life where I know it won't matter tomorrow and won't make a difference in the short or long run. So keeping my mouth shut is the best for me. I look out for #1. That being said. I think most people say they would rather have honesty. But also most people don't like honesty when it is said to them. And if you word it in a way that isn't honest they will think you are talking about someone else. Most people are not introspective enough to see themselves for who they truly are. I think programmers for the most part are not these people.
To err is human to really elephant it up you need a computer
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Having been downsized because I was honest about management and they didn't want to hear it(they asked). I find myself now being more careful in my wording. I have the is it worth my job conversation with myself quite often. Don't get me wrong here. I like my job alot. But I won't ever again be in the position of having to look for work just because some manager got her/his panties/underwear in a knot because they couldn't hand some well worded but honest feedback. I am at a point in my life where I know it won't matter tomorrow and won't make a difference in the short or long run. So keeping my mouth shut is the best for me. I look out for #1. That being said. I think most people say they would rather have honesty. But also most people don't like honesty when it is said to them. And if you word it in a way that isn't honest they will think you are talking about someone else. Most people are not introspective enough to see themselves for who they truly are. I think programmers for the most part are not these people.
To err is human to really elephant it up you need a computer
rnbergren wrote:
I am at a point in my life where I know it won't matter tomorrow and won't make a difference in the short or long run. So keeping my mouth shut is the best for me. I look out for #1.
This is the sad truth... no matter how good our intentions are at the start, we get knocked back so often, that we are forced to resorting into being selfish. I guess as much as we might want an ideal world, we have to accept human nature, and just ride the train until it's out turn to get off.
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Let's face it - there's a high percentage of software developers who have great technical skill but whose people skills leave something to be desired. I'm one of them. I've encountered a lot of others too. I don't think it's a bad thing. Especially where it concerns matters of what is possible, and what isn't, and what will work, and what won't the question comes down to "Do you want honest, or nice?" The rest is just in how you deliver it. So delivery aside, given the situation where it's one or the other: Many developers would place a premium on honesty. Many folks with "soft skills" would place a premium on nice. The people that need the honesty the most - because of their tendency to be unrealistic when it comes to technical matters - is the folks with the soft skills. The only way out of this double-bind is diplomacy - the art of telling someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. This is not easy. Sometimes it's not even possible - like - "your {family member} died" and developers often don't have the social skillset to do that consistently. And sometimes even when I hear developers talk to each other they take things personally. A lot of times probably part of it is due to the emotional investment in the project they are discussing - but other times it's just people expecting "nice" and getting "honest" - other developers do it too. So I guess we can come off as a bit salty. But you know what? You're going to get the truth. I think we can all benefit in general from remembering not to take things personally. And some of us can benefit from practicing a little tact. None of this is intended as judgment. Just honest observation..
Real programmers use butterflies
I used to have great people skills but since getting older I find it harder to put up with peoples BS and so I've become somewhat of a recluse.
The less you need, the more you have. JaxCoder.com
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Let's face it - there's a high percentage of software developers who have great technical skill but whose people skills leave something to be desired. I'm one of them. I've encountered a lot of others too. I don't think it's a bad thing. Especially where it concerns matters of what is possible, and what isn't, and what will work, and what won't the question comes down to "Do you want honest, or nice?" The rest is just in how you deliver it. So delivery aside, given the situation where it's one or the other: Many developers would place a premium on honesty. Many folks with "soft skills" would place a premium on nice. The people that need the honesty the most - because of their tendency to be unrealistic when it comes to technical matters - is the folks with the soft skills. The only way out of this double-bind is diplomacy - the art of telling someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. This is not easy. Sometimes it's not even possible - like - "your {family member} died" and developers often don't have the social skillset to do that consistently. And sometimes even when I hear developers talk to each other they take things personally. A lot of times probably part of it is due to the emotional investment in the project they are discussing - but other times it's just people expecting "nice" and getting "honest" - other developers do it too. So I guess we can come off as a bit salty. But you know what? You're going to get the truth. I think we can all benefit in general from remembering not to take things personally. And some of us can benefit from practicing a little tact. None of this is intended as judgment. Just honest observation..
Real programmers use butterflies
Frequently, "nice" doesn't work and you need to shock the listener (boss) into realizing that what he believes to be true is not.
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But then again, a memorable quote is, "The graveyards are filled with people who were indispensable." :laugh:
Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing. -
Quote:
"The graveyards are filled with people who were indispensable knew they legally had the right of way." :omg:
FTFY
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
Also true!
Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing. -
Let's face it - there's a high percentage of software developers who have great technical skill but whose people skills leave something to be desired. I'm one of them. I've encountered a lot of others too. I don't think it's a bad thing. Especially where it concerns matters of what is possible, and what isn't, and what will work, and what won't the question comes down to "Do you want honest, or nice?" The rest is just in how you deliver it. So delivery aside, given the situation where it's one or the other: Many developers would place a premium on honesty. Many folks with "soft skills" would place a premium on nice. The people that need the honesty the most - because of their tendency to be unrealistic when it comes to technical matters - is the folks with the soft skills. The only way out of this double-bind is diplomacy - the art of telling someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. This is not easy. Sometimes it's not even possible - like - "your {family member} died" and developers often don't have the social skillset to do that consistently. And sometimes even when I hear developers talk to each other they take things personally. A lot of times probably part of it is due to the emotional investment in the project they are discussing - but other times it's just people expecting "nice" and getting "honest" - other developers do it too. So I guess we can come off as a bit salty. But you know what? You're going to get the truth. I think we can all benefit in general from remembering not to take things personally. And some of us can benefit from practicing a little tact. None of this is intended as judgment. Just honest observation..
Real programmers use butterflies
Someone (close) once said (screamed): "Why must you always be so logical!!". The alternative had no appeal.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it. ― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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I used to have great people skills but since getting older I find it harder to put up with peoples BS and so I've become somewhat of a recluse.
The less you need, the more you have. JaxCoder.com
relatable content
Real programmers use butterflies
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Frequently, "nice" doesn't work and you need to shock the listener (boss) into realizing that what he believes to be true is not.
I agree, and I hate being put in the position, but so often I'm left with the choice if letting them entertain something that will fail (and I'll inevitably be held responsible for anyway) or hoping that if I tell them the truth, they'll listen so we can actually make the project work. :rolleyes:
Real programmers use butterflies
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Someone (close) once said (screamed): "Why must you always be so logical!!". The alternative had no appeal.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it. ― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
I'm the first person to argue that logic is overrated, but the more I deal with the frustration that is other people the more I wish it wasn't. Logic doesn't persuade most people most of the time. I've found if you want to persuade someone of something the most expedient and indeed effective way to do so is to attach some sort of reward to the belief, like membership in a social group (people want to belong - what this means in real world terms is there is strength in numbers), or financial reward "i pay you to agree with me"), or otherwise, getting them what they want. Another thing that can work is emotional appeal. Logic is good for - if you're good at this sort of thing - verifying *one's own* beliefs against our ego, that constructs them most often in defense of our id. So we have to check them to make sure they're sound because for most people most of the time - we don't arrive at our beliefs empirically, even if we think we do. We can check our beliefs with logic though. The bottom line is logic helps oneself but rarely helps other people. In the 19th century John Stuart Mill wrote as much in "The Oppression of Women" - in so many words.
Real programmers use butterflies
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I'm the first person to argue that logic is overrated, but the more I deal with the frustration that is other people the more I wish it wasn't. Logic doesn't persuade most people most of the time. I've found if you want to persuade someone of something the most expedient and indeed effective way to do so is to attach some sort of reward to the belief, like membership in a social group (people want to belong - what this means in real world terms is there is strength in numbers), or financial reward "i pay you to agree with me"), or otherwise, getting them what they want. Another thing that can work is emotional appeal. Logic is good for - if you're good at this sort of thing - verifying *one's own* beliefs against our ego, that constructs them most often in defense of our id. So we have to check them to make sure they're sound because for most people most of the time - we don't arrive at our beliefs empirically, even if we think we do. We can check our beliefs with logic though. The bottom line is logic helps oneself but rarely helps other people. In the 19th century John Stuart Mill wrote as much in "The Oppression of Women" - in so many words.
Real programmers use butterflies
Logic tells me to consult a map first if one plans to head out and don't know how to get where one plans to go. Most seem to disagree with me on that point. What sort of "reward" do you suggest in this case?
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it. ― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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Logic tells me to consult a map first if one plans to head out and don't know how to get where one plans to go. Most seem to disagree with me on that point. What sort of "reward" do you suggest in this case?
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it. ― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
getting where you want to go is its own reward.
Real programmers use butterflies
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getting where you want to go is its own reward.
Real programmers use butterflies
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getting where you want to go is its own reward.
Real programmers use butterflies
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Let's face it - there's a high percentage of software developers who have great technical skill but whose people skills leave something to be desired. I'm one of them. I've encountered a lot of others too. I don't think it's a bad thing. Especially where it concerns matters of what is possible, and what isn't, and what will work, and what won't the question comes down to "Do you want honest, or nice?" The rest is just in how you deliver it. So delivery aside, given the situation where it's one or the other: Many developers would place a premium on honesty. Many folks with "soft skills" would place a premium on nice. The people that need the honesty the most - because of their tendency to be unrealistic when it comes to technical matters - is the folks with the soft skills. The only way out of this double-bind is diplomacy - the art of telling someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. This is not easy. Sometimes it's not even possible - like - "your {family member} died" and developers often don't have the social skillset to do that consistently. And sometimes even when I hear developers talk to each other they take things personally. A lot of times probably part of it is due to the emotional investment in the project they are discussing - but other times it's just people expecting "nice" and getting "honest" - other developers do it too. So I guess we can come off as a bit salty. But you know what? You're going to get the truth. I think we can all benefit in general from remembering not to take things personally. And some of us can benefit from practicing a little tact. None of this is intended as judgment. Just honest observation..
Real programmers use butterflies
One of the fundamental requirements for human communication to succeed is the ability to express yourself in a way that your audience will understand. Many programmers revel in their technical expertise and the fact that their typical audience doesn't understand them. The pathetic truth is, their ego-stroking from this view is utterly worthless. If you can't or are unwilling to communicate with others about what you are doing for them, and make the effort to do so in a manner that is understandable, then it doesn't matter how clever your code is, you are a failure as a programmer, and should exit the field.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
Let's face it - there's a high percentage of software developers who have great technical skill but whose people skills leave something to be desired. I'm one of them. I've encountered a lot of others too. I don't think it's a bad thing. Especially where it concerns matters of what is possible, and what isn't, and what will work, and what won't the question comes down to "Do you want honest, or nice?" The rest is just in how you deliver it. So delivery aside, given the situation where it's one or the other: Many developers would place a premium on honesty. Many folks with "soft skills" would place a premium on nice. The people that need the honesty the most - because of their tendency to be unrealistic when it comes to technical matters - is the folks with the soft skills. The only way out of this double-bind is diplomacy - the art of telling someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. This is not easy. Sometimes it's not even possible - like - "your {family member} died" and developers often don't have the social skillset to do that consistently. And sometimes even when I hear developers talk to each other they take things personally. A lot of times probably part of it is due to the emotional investment in the project they are discussing - but other times it's just people expecting "nice" and getting "honest" - other developers do it too. So I guess we can come off as a bit salty. But you know what? You're going to get the truth. I think we can all benefit in general from remembering not to take things personally. And some of us can benefit from practicing a little tact. None of this is intended as judgment. Just honest observation..
Real programmers use butterflies
honey the codewitch wrote:
Especially where it concerns matters of what is possible, and what isn't, and what will work, and what won't the question comes down to "Do you want honest, or nice?" The rest is just in how you deliver it.
When you really analyse this, it makes no sense. Politeness doesn't mean you have to lie, same with tact or kindness. In almost all circumstances (in Western culture, that is), there is no reason to be both honest and kind/polite/tactful. The idea that politeness inherently means that you have to lie / be dishonest is where you're going wrong.
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Let's face it - there's a high percentage of software developers who have great technical skill but whose people skills leave something to be desired. I'm one of them. I've encountered a lot of others too. I don't think it's a bad thing. Especially where it concerns matters of what is possible, and what isn't, and what will work, and what won't the question comes down to "Do you want honest, or nice?" The rest is just in how you deliver it. So delivery aside, given the situation where it's one or the other: Many developers would place a premium on honesty. Many folks with "soft skills" would place a premium on nice. The people that need the honesty the most - because of their tendency to be unrealistic when it comes to technical matters - is the folks with the soft skills. The only way out of this double-bind is diplomacy - the art of telling someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. This is not easy. Sometimes it's not even possible - like - "your {family member} died" and developers often don't have the social skillset to do that consistently. And sometimes even when I hear developers talk to each other they take things personally. A lot of times probably part of it is due to the emotional investment in the project they are discussing - but other times it's just people expecting "nice" and getting "honest" - other developers do it too. So I guess we can come off as a bit salty. But you know what? You're going to get the truth. I think we can all benefit in general from remembering not to take things personally. And some of us can benefit from practicing a little tact. None of this is intended as judgment. Just honest observation..
Real programmers use butterflies
More people in the software industry should know about the concept of psychological safety ("honesty first, but also as much niceness as possible" is the immediately relevant part). I highly recommend Amy Edmondson's book: The Fearless Organization[^]
