Honesty, Tact and Software Developers

[Mike Hankey]

I used to have great people skills but since getting older I find it harder to put up with peoples BS and so I've become somewhat of a recluse.

The less you need, the more you have. JaxCoder.com

[PIEBALDconsult]

Frequently, "nice" doesn't work and you need to shock the listener (boss) into realizing that what he believes to be true is not.

[Forogar]

Quote:

"The graveyards are filled with people who were indispensable knew they legally had the right of way." :omg:

FTFY

- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.

[Greg Utas]

Also true!

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The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.

[Lost User]

Someone (close) once said (screamed): "Why must you always be so logical!!". The alternative had no appeal.

It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it. ― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food

[honey the codewitch]

relatable content

Real programmers use butterflies

[honey the codewitch]

I agree, and I hate being put in the position, but so often I'm left with the choice if letting them entertain something that will fail (and I'll inevitably be held responsible for anyway) or hoping that if I tell them the truth, they'll listen so we can actually make the project work. :rolleyes:

Real programmers use butterflies

[honey the codewitch]

I'm the first person to argue that logic is overrated, but the more I deal with the frustration that is other people the more I wish it wasn't. Logic doesn't persuade most people most of the time. I've found if you want to persuade someone of something the most expedient and indeed effective way to do so is to attach some sort of reward to the belief, like membership in a social group (people want to belong - what this means in real world terms is there is strength in numbers), or financial reward "i pay you to agree with me"), or otherwise, getting them what they want. Another thing that can work is emotional appeal. Logic is good for - if you're good at this sort of thing - verifying *one's own* beliefs against our ego, that constructs them most often in defense of our id. So we have to check them to make sure they're sound because for most people most of the time - we don't arrive at our beliefs empirically, even if we think we do. We can check our beliefs with logic though. The bottom line is logic helps oneself but rarely helps other people. In the 19th century John Stuart Mill wrote as much in "The Oppression of Women" - in so many words.

Real programmers use butterflies

[Lost User]

Logic tells me to consult a map first if one plans to head out and don't know how to get where one plans to go. Most seem to disagree with me on that point. What sort of "reward" do you suggest in this case?

It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it. ― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food

[honey the codewitch]

getting where you want to go is its own reward.

Real programmers use butterflies

[rnbergren]

It isn't the destination it is the journey. HAHAHAHAHA

To err is human to really elephant it up you need a computer

[Lost User]

Not much help if you're already on the road, in the wrong direction.

It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it. ― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food

[Gary R Wheeler]

One of the fundamental requirements for human communication to succeed is the ability to express yourself in a way that your audience will understand. Many programmers revel in their technical expertise and the fact that their typical audience doesn't understand them. The pathetic truth is, their ego-stroking from this view is utterly worthless. If you can't or are unwilling to communicate with others about what you are doing for them, and make the effort to do so in a manner that is understandable, then it doesn't matter how clever your code is, you are a failure as a programmer, and should exit the field.

Software Zen: delete this;

[Jeroen_R]

honey the codewitch wrote:

Especially where it concerns matters of what is possible, and what isn't, and what will work, and what won't the question comes down to "Do you want honest, or nice?" The rest is just in how you deliver it.

When you really analyse this, it makes no sense. Politeness doesn't mean you have to lie, same with tact or kindness. In almost all circumstances (in Western culture, that is), there is no reason to be both honest and kind/polite/tactful. The idea that politeness inherently means that you have to lie / be dishonest is where you're going wrong.

[Member 4733608]

More people in the software industry should know about the concept of psychological safety ("honesty first, but also as much niceness as possible" is the immediately relevant part). I highly recommend Amy Edmondson's book: The Fearless Organization[^]

[Martijn Smitshoek]

Until recently, I was kind-of OK with Windows. Not enthusiastic per se, but it was good enough and it had a broad base of support, and I still had the means to remove the dysfunctional phone interface from my PC and install the classic start button instead. However, apart from the bugs (I have been spared most of them) Microsoft's current policy is to pretend that they own my PC, and interfering *directly* in my personal space. So, when MS starts nagging about, for instance, my browser choices, or asking other questions that I have already said no to, dig up a 20-levels deep checkbox, or registry or policy setting, hopefully to dig up the stfu option that will shut them up. Only to find that the next "«security update»" has "«accidentally»" undone my setting. Yeah, right. As ignorant as it may be, in the factual world this is boundary violation, and this is disrespecting the user. It is exactly this behavior that has tipped my preference in favor of Linux, despite all of its glaring UI bugs, and despite having used Windows for 30+ years. And there will be an action to change my PC OS. I am not doing this for religious reasons. I am simply doing this to keep my blood pressure in check.

[realJSOP]

I tried using tact once, and was told nicely to f*ck off. My boss once told me I should try to be nicer. I told him if he wanted someone to be nice, he should have hired a politician instead of a programmer.

".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013

[realJSOP]

Jeroen_R wrote:

Politeness doesn't mean you have to lie, same with tact or kindness.

Next time your wife asks you, "Does my butt look big in this dress?", you'll probably need to lie to be polite.

".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013

[Jeroen_R]

nope. There are two possibilities 1. her butt doesn't look big in this dress => don't have to lie. 2. Her butt does look big in this dress => you can say that the dress doesn't really do her figure justice. Which is kind, polite and, important for this discussion, not a lie. (Also, I've been informed by my children that big butts are now fashionable, so the example is kinda moot :laugh: )

[honey the codewitch]

I didn't say anything about politeness.

Real programmers use butterflies