Is it more difficult to find work as an older developer?
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Younger ones are cheaper: and there is an impression that this is a Young Man's Game. Problem is the ones that can code are generally those that are still in the industry after 30 years, not those who just escaped from college ...
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony "Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
Well said!
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I've noticed a trend (at least in South Africa) that a lot of developer job postings are looking for junior to mid level developers. Posts for senior level developers are scarcer. Companies are looking for young, energetic people. It seems like it gets more difficult to find work as an older developer, even though I would think that you would be valued for your experience. I think part of the reason is also that the salary for junior and mid level developers are less and companies are trying to save money. Perhaps there is also a stigma that older developers skills are not up to date?
In my country (Sweden) it is mostly the sme but for some years I have seen more posts for senior developers. Of courde most employers want someone with 30 years experience and is 25 years old though :). Most companies does not value experience high enough and especially understanding the business domain which in mnay cases is just as imprtant as understanding how to code. Companies also overestimate their own processes and ability to form new developers. But development is more a craft/art than an industrial process. I think who you are is more important than your age. Old developers might be bad because they have always been bad and never improved. And other older developers might be adapt to new technology and being able to change just as easily than a young developer. And some younger developers think just because they have learned to solve problems a specific way using some pattern(s) that it is the only way to solve ANY problem and produce over-designed code complicating an easy problems just because they want to follow some rigid rule.
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I have also worked with developers over 60, who can't remember how to tie their shoe, yet, they are still on my f***ing team being as worthless as they can be. I have also seen developers out of college that are naturals, and a great asset to my team. It's all relative. In my experience the older ones are less likely to want to learn new technologies and move with the times. Their memory and cognition can be a liability at times. I am 49 year's old. My memory and cognition is not what it used to be when I was 25 or 30. Eventually, I too will have to be put to pasture. Such is life. And yes, younger usually equates to cheaper labor costs, but you usually get more output then with grandpa who needs a 2 hour nap in the afternoon.
I'm 50 plus and have so much trouble to tie my shoes that I never even tried it. Worse: the thought never even crosses my mind. Instead, I tie my shoe laces. And usually on both sides, so not just for one shoe.
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I've noticed a trend (at least in South Africa) that a lot of developer job postings are looking for junior to mid level developers. Posts for senior level developers are scarcer. Companies are looking for young, energetic people. It seems like it gets more difficult to find work as an older developer, even though I would think that you would be valued for your experience. I think part of the reason is also that the salary for junior and mid level developers are less and companies are trying to save money. Perhaps there is also a stigma that older developers skills are not up to date?
I spent so many years learning my tricks. I want to see a newbie make the AJAX pages I make and make them always work. I want to see a newbie that knows about the patterns to use to make an app maintainable. I work with a guy who is a better coder than I am but his code isn't designed to be maintainable. What is more valuable to a company since the largest cost of code is its maintenance? Heck, you can't even debug much of it let alone figure out what the error messages really mean. When there's an error, my code reports it, its location, the faulty data and who to blame for it. I'm older but I just spent an enormous amount of time getting my AWS Architect cert, changing to git, and upgrading to .Net Core ... and we just got a manager that thinks Python is an enterprise language and that .Net only works on Azure. Nah, I think experience is a valuable thing because it works.
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I've noticed a trend (at least in South Africa) that a lot of developer job postings are looking for junior to mid level developers. Posts for senior level developers are scarcer. Companies are looking for young, energetic people. It seems like it gets more difficult to find work as an older developer, even though I would think that you would be valued for your experience. I think part of the reason is also that the salary for junior and mid level developers are less and companies are trying to save money. Perhaps there is also a stigma that older developers skills are not up to date?
Absolutely.:mad:
I am tired of the cold. When is summer coming? Wear your mask!
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I've noticed a trend (at least in South Africa) that a lot of developer job postings are looking for junior to mid level developers. Posts for senior level developers are scarcer. Companies are looking for young, energetic people. It seems like it gets more difficult to find work as an older developer, even though I would think that you would be valued for your experience. I think part of the reason is also that the salary for junior and mid level developers are less and companies are trying to save money. Perhaps there is also a stigma that older developers skills are not up to date?
I'm 60 and can retire from my current spot as a team lead/developer. I've sent a lot of job applications out, had a fair amount of remote interviews, but no job offers even though I'm more than qualified for most of those positions. I think there's a bias against hiring guys my age. I'm pretty much reconciled to the fact I'll be working at Costco post retirement, which is fine.
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I will leave this discussion with this fact. It is a medical and scientific fact (not opinion) that as we age, our memory and cognitive function declines.
I think effectiveness has to come down to how an older developer spent his career and the base knowledge they started with. Knowledge turnover in this field is extremely high. Understanding the core principles allows one to gain further knowledge more effectively. Where those who learn formulas to work with a technology that will become obsolete within 5 years are in trouble from day one. (i.e. boot camp and problem based self taught victims) The vast amount of knowledge required to truly be effective and make critical design decisions spanning many technologies takes years to acquire. And this may be a point where your interest and your employer's interests diverge. They need you to get the project done and know an investment in you may not be around in 2 years. You have a future you need to protect. So it is easy to see how so many would become stranded. So an older developer who learned how to "work in a technology" that has become obsolete and did not aggressively acquire new skills and knowledge is in serious trouble when you consider the impact of life, family, and degeneration. Degeneration also varies greatly based on ones attention to exercising ones mind. On the other hand, one who started with a good foundation and aggressively fed their knowledge is probably in a position to "out develop" 30 "new kids" based on the ability to make proper decisions and not waste time hunting for information or going down bad paths due to a lack of experience. In essence, there is no "standard" for effectiveness over age. It depends on the individual. Then again, those who are hiring might have their own personal agenda also based on how the new hire will impact their own future. Make sure you are an asset and you will never have anything to worry about.
Dave B
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Many years ago the company I worked for (as an operator, but learning programming) would recruit programmers only from the graduate pool. So we had programmers with first or second class degrees who could not write a decent program to save their life. Largely because there were no CS degrees then, so they all had degrees in totally irrelevant subjects. It took a few years for that to change. But my overall experience is that age has no bearing whatsoever. I have worked with people of all ages who were useless, and some whose skills were excellent. The main thing I did notice about the good ones, was their attitude to doing the job, and learning new skills.
"
Quote:
I have worked with people of all ages who were useless
" Applies to people at all levels of the organization as well.
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I've noticed a trend (at least in South Africa) that a lot of developer job postings are looking for junior to mid level developers. Posts for senior level developers are scarcer. Companies are looking for young, energetic people. It seems like it gets more difficult to find work as an older developer, even though I would think that you would be valued for your experience. I think part of the reason is also that the salary for junior and mid level developers are less and companies are trying to save money. Perhaps there is also a stigma that older developers skills are not up to date?
I think you nailed it on the head. Another aspect (I am 65) is that new fads in code development like agile and DevOps tend to be something programmers used to thinking find hard to accept whole cloth and hiring managers (or teams) my be leary of being questioned.
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I'm 60 and can retire from my current spot as a team lead/developer. I've sent a lot of job applications out, had a fair amount of remote interviews, but no job offers even though I'm more than qualified for most of those positions. I think there's a bias against hiring guys my age. I'm pretty much reconciled to the fact I'll be working at Costco post retirement, which is fine.
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Richard MacCutchan wrote:
age has no bearing whatsoever.
I have to disagree with you on this. Age does have a bearing on your overall effectiveness as developer/programmer, outside the realm of "experience".
Yeah, I think you missed his point. age is NOT THE Determinant here that many think it is. At 54, I am slowing down. I cannot possibly do a 27 hr straight programming session, as I have in the old days. Heck, I did a 16hr day and it jacked up my sleep for 3 days, and threw off fasting/eating schedule. So, yeah, we get older. We get slower. It's true of EVERY career. In the old days, the old plumbers, electricians, etc. were mentors to the new kids coming in. (How much has brick laying changed in 300 years? Not that much!) But in this WONDERFUL career, we can create our own custom tools that augment how we see the world. I was able to use a VM, restore, re-run a test with a subtle change, and copy/past 700,000 loglines into excel, and do a column by column by row comparison, excluding the date/time columns in a few minutes. It's about a 1hr full cycle. But I started on Paper Terminals. I Wrote custom programs to compare log files in the 1980s. And to compare Master-File before/after effects of code changes, or to produce change logs. Which could THEN be compared. The point. The tools changed. The DANG TOOLS CHANGE DAILY! You could put me back in front of that PDP-11 today, and inside of a few hours, it would feel almost natural to me. But I now have 4 versions of 1 IDE, Rider, DataGrip, UltraEdit, NP++, PHPStorm, etc. etc. etc. And every project I move to, they have 10 different tools. Oh, and they are all updated constantly, even with breaking changes. THIS IS WHERE MY AGE SHOWS. I remember leaving the MSFT camp and going Borland. Why? MSFT broke their C++ Compiler and stopped supporting 16 bit code generation. We had to maintain a 16 bit library, and the lead (younger) developer made EVERYTHING into New 32 bit code, using NEW Compiler features MSFT did not add into the 16 bit C++ Compiler. [The developer was UPSET that I found I could compile the code with BC++ as if I was dragging the company down the past... Without thinking that we had THOUSANDS of customers that were not going to 32 bit development any time soon. My next project was a Thunking layer, so we could actually call his code from 16 bit code. IRRESPONSIBLE to choose the path he chose!] Anyways, we make more mistakes when we are younger, and we are more likely to go down some bad paths, or not see the writing on the wall. I believe I am a better developer, overall. I am a bit slower, but I am a LOT more thorough, and a LOT LESS Likely to make a fatal design mistake! But it is a bit of a young perso
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Experienced developers are not fresh noobs out of school with a great resume. They have or should have developed a network. If an older developer is doing battle with HR, they've picked the wrong battle. +5 to everything John said. An older developer cannot play the same game as some 20 something. The op needs to think more outside of the box and not play the corporate game. Right now, I'm looking for a FORTRAN person who can help migrate / rewrite an application into the 21st century. But that means I get nothing but expensive old farts :) like me. As for cognitive ability, I declare BS for that argument. The issue is so much larger as others have commented. Our industry is very, very broad. Being fast with an elegant solution to the wrong problem (and I've seen a lot of those for you whiz kids) means I just make more $$ being happy to help.
Charlie Gilley <italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape... "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
I was never part of any "old boys' network" ... and I would never join a group that would have me as a member. And since it's against the law to ask for your age, the "battle" as you call it, only starts in the interview when you show up in a suit and they're wearing a t-shirt ... and yeah, I check the "company profile". Anyway, for the last 20 years all my work has been remote where I didn't have to submit a "picture". As for your "FORTRAN" requirement, that's a useless specification if one also has to know about mass equilibrium calculations or petrochemical fracturing. You need a better "job description". As for the $, my rate varies with the skill the job requires. It's your "general attitude", that slots all of us "old guys", that is part of the problem. "Old fart" is right. (And who is "John"?)
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it. ― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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I've noticed a trend (at least in South Africa) that a lot of developer job postings are looking for junior to mid level developers. Posts for senior level developers are scarcer. Companies are looking for young, energetic people. It seems like it gets more difficult to find work as an older developer, even though I would think that you would be valued for your experience. I think part of the reason is also that the salary for junior and mid level developers are less and companies are trying to save money. Perhaps there is also a stigma that older developers skills are not up to date?
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I was never part of any "old boys' network" ... and I would never join a group that would have me as a member. And since it's against the law to ask for your age, the "battle" as you call it, only starts in the interview when you show up in a suit and they're wearing a t-shirt ... and yeah, I check the "company profile". Anyway, for the last 20 years all my work has been remote where I didn't have to submit a "picture". As for your "FORTRAN" requirement, that's a useless specification if one also has to know about mass equilibrium calculations or petrochemical fracturing. You need a better "job description". As for the $, my rate varies with the skill the job requires. It's your "general attitude", that slots all of us "old guys", that is part of the problem. "Old fart" is right. (And who is "John"?)
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it. ― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
If the application were that special, I would agree. I've been looking for someone who can read and understand what a statement does. For me, trying to swap from FORTRAN source to C++ can make my head hurt from time to time.
Charlie Gilley <italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape... "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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I have also worked with developers over 60, who can't remember how to tie their shoe, yet, they are still on my f***ing team being as worthless as they can be. I have also seen developers out of college that are naturals, and a great asset to my team. It's all relative. In my experience the older ones are less likely to want to learn new technologies and move with the times. Their memory and cognition can be a liability at times. I am 49 year's old. My memory and cognition is not what it used to be when I was 25 or 30. Eventually, I too will have to be put to pasture. Such is life. And yes, younger usually equates to cheaper labor costs, but you usually get more output then with grandpa who needs a 2 hour nap in the afternoon.
On the other hand, having a good memory can be a curse: there are good and bad memories. Fact: people usually focus on the last bad memory, not all the good ones previous.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it. ― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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If the application were that special, I would agree. I've been looking for someone who can read and understand what a statement does. For me, trying to swap from FORTRAN source to C++ can make my head hurt from time to time.
Charlie Gilley <italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape... "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
So you're saying that because the application "is not that special", it's OK to post a vague job description, and thereby compounding the problem ... and wasting the time of applicants in the process; I can think of no bigger sin. I don't believe in a canned resume. I study what the job requires, and write an "application" that targets the job (and company).
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it. ― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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I've noticed a trend (at least in South Africa) that a lot of developer job postings are looking for junior to mid level developers. Posts for senior level developers are scarcer. Companies are looking for young, energetic people. It seems like it gets more difficult to find work as an older developer, even though I would think that you would be valued for your experience. I think part of the reason is also that the salary for junior and mid level developers are less and companies are trying to save money. Perhaps there is also a stigma that older developers skills are not up to date?
One of the things I find a bit troubling is when you see a posting for a senior developer with 3-5 years in the core technology requirement. My own experience working with such developers (generally) is that is about the time to kick off the training wheels. (Some exceptions apply, but not many) So if 5 years of experience makes you a senior dev, what about us with 20, 30 or even 40 years of professional experience? Where do we fit in?
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I think effectiveness has to come down to how an older developer spent his career and the base knowledge they started with. Knowledge turnover in this field is extremely high. Understanding the core principles allows one to gain further knowledge more effectively. Where those who learn formulas to work with a technology that will become obsolete within 5 years are in trouble from day one. (i.e. boot camp and problem based self taught victims) The vast amount of knowledge required to truly be effective and make critical design decisions spanning many technologies takes years to acquire. And this may be a point where your interest and your employer's interests diverge. They need you to get the project done and know an investment in you may not be around in 2 years. You have a future you need to protect. So it is easy to see how so many would become stranded. So an older developer who learned how to "work in a technology" that has become obsolete and did not aggressively acquire new skills and knowledge is in serious trouble when you consider the impact of life, family, and degeneration. Degeneration also varies greatly based on ones attention to exercising ones mind. On the other hand, one who started with a good foundation and aggressively fed their knowledge is probably in a position to "out develop" 30 "new kids" based on the ability to make proper decisions and not waste time hunting for information or going down bad paths due to a lack of experience. In essence, there is no "standard" for effectiveness over age. It depends on the individual. Then again, those who are hiring might have their own personal agenda also based on how the new hire will impact their own future. Make sure you are an asset and you will never have anything to worry about.
Dave B
I've spent the last 15 years working as a contractor and consultant in software design and development. And one thing that is clear is each contract is different, and you have to constantly learn new technologies in order to stay relevant for each of your clients. To me, that is just part of the profession, just like it is for other professionals such as medical doctors or engineers, or any other field where the technology is always changing. In my last contract, I worked for a government agency with a union IT shop. The managers are largely untechnical, and the IT staffers don't seem to be very motivated to learn any new technologies on their own time. Some of these developers have been there 20+ years, maxed out their benefits, and have very little drive or enthusiasm for what they do there. And it showed in the amount of technical debt and the use of obsolete technologies in their various projects. I agree that as we age, we do lose some cognitive abilities. But that is counterbalanced by the experience we bring, the ability to properly architect and design a system. And we have learned how to learn, to pick up new languages and technologies as appropriate. (I should also mention that before starting my contracting career, I spent 25+ years before that as an employee at a number of software companies)
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Good for you in this case! In my case, at a point I realized the 30 years old me would run circles around the 60 years old me. I was working for a very good guy/company so I thought I cannot in good conscience ask for a raise. Also, other things outside my work became very important and I decided to draw a line. Each one has a different path but I still believe age is a difficult obstacle to overcome for professional programmers.
Mircea
It might be true when it comes to standard work, but then you run into an unexpected design issue. Seems to happen every day with my current contract. The younger developers are grinding through their tasks, and I am taking a bit longer. But then they come across an application using some technology new to them, such as writing an installer in WIX, and get stuck in how to proceed. They know that they can ask me for my help and experience, especially as I have worked with installer tech and WIX for over 10 years. This is where we older developers shine - we have that experience with many different technologies if we took the time over the years to keep learning. I should also mention that while these younger developers are whipping through their work, I am taking the time to understand the context of the code I am working on, cleaning up stranded code, searching for security vulnerabilities in outdated packages, and other similar cleanup work. I like to leave a project in better shape than when I found it....
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Experienced developers are not fresh noobs out of school with a great resume. They have or should have developed a network. If an older developer is doing battle with HR, they've picked the wrong battle. +5 to everything John said. An older developer cannot play the same game as some 20 something. The op needs to think more outside of the box and not play the corporate game. Right now, I'm looking for a FORTRAN person who can help migrate / rewrite an application into the 21st century. But that means I get nothing but expensive old farts :) like me. As for cognitive ability, I declare BS for that argument. The issue is so much larger as others have commented. Our industry is very, very broad. Being fast with an elegant solution to the wrong problem (and I've seen a lot of those for you whiz kids) means I just make more $$ being happy to help.
Charlie Gilley <italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape... "Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783 “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
With respect to declining cognitive ability, I think it happens to everyone with age. But if we keep exercising our brain, learning and applying new techniques and technologies, it can grately slow down this decline. I know that there are times when my memory about general things have faded a bit. But with respect to software technology it is all there. I have spent the last 5 years learning and working with Azure technologies with no issue. And at the same time if I had to, I could go back and write assembler code for DOS (no laughing, I actually had a significant DOS app to work on a few years ago). Use it or lose it...
