Software Development: The Great Equalizer
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I grew up kinda hard, with untreated mental illness and spent some time on the streets as a homeless teen, got my GED as a result and never went to college. But I had hacked around on computers, programming since I was 8 years old. When I was 18 I went from being homeless to moving in with my b/f in seattle and from there straight to Microsoft. I started taking senior and lead positions before I was 20. Outside of software development, for example when I moved from Seattle to rural Washington state where there were not development jobs I drove a cab, jockeyed cash registers, and even worked on a farm. I'm not qualified to do anything skilled but write software. I can't tell you how grateful I am that this industry values talent over credentials. I'd be in a very different position today if it weren't for that. I have a friend I grew up with who never launched into a software career despite us programming together but his primary interest is language so I guess I understand - I learned C++, he learned Latin. I have another friend who I came up with together and helped him get into development, and then he moved to NYC and got rich, and he has a similar background as me, except not crazy. None of these people have degrees. Both are ridiculously intelligent. But it makes me think, you know? I count myself fortunate, and I am grateful not just for me, but for anyone like me who found their way despite lack of opportunities and access to "white collar" work generally.
Real programmers use butterflies
I grew up in a home (family, not foster), but I surely do have a heap lot of emotional baggage (including having spent a couple weeks of my life in a psychosomatic clinic and a couple years more with regular counseling to get to gripes with life). I managed to finish school & university, but I've studied physics, not informatics. I work as a programmer now and one of the dudes at the company once told me that they didn't really want to hire me (for not having the right field they're looking for), but they were really desperate. On the other hand, some educated-in-informatics co-workers of mine are way worse learners, than I am. That kind of guy who say "I've learned to do it like that half a century ago", utterly ignoring all the progress made in said half century. I love programming for, among other reasons, similar to yours: you can do that stuff self-taught. I never needed a single cent to get into it, IDEs are free, learning resources are free, all that's left is the own will to learn and to think.
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I grew up kinda hard, with untreated mental illness and spent some time on the streets as a homeless teen, got my GED as a result and never went to college. But I had hacked around on computers, programming since I was 8 years old. When I was 18 I went from being homeless to moving in with my b/f in seattle and from there straight to Microsoft. I started taking senior and lead positions before I was 20. Outside of software development, for example when I moved from Seattle to rural Washington state where there were not development jobs I drove a cab, jockeyed cash registers, and even worked on a farm. I'm not qualified to do anything skilled but write software. I can't tell you how grateful I am that this industry values talent over credentials. I'd be in a very different position today if it weren't for that. I have a friend I grew up with who never launched into a software career despite us programming together but his primary interest is language so I guess I understand - I learned C++, he learned Latin. I have another friend who I came up with together and helped him get into development, and then he moved to NYC and got rich, and he has a similar background as me, except not crazy. None of these people have degrees. Both are ridiculously intelligent. But it makes me think, you know? I count myself fortunate, and I am grateful not just for me, but for anyone like me who found their way despite lack of opportunities and access to "white collar" work generally.
Real programmers use butterflies
honey the codewitch wrote:
and got rich
Consider this beyond wealth, but to include family/friends/vocation/recreation/everything, you may wish to consider something I read off of one of the front wall in a house-of-worship I attended many years ago. "Who is rich? He who is satisfied with his portion."
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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I don't know. My FIL is a master electrician. Union man. Never had a degree either. He worked in a wonderbread factory before apprenticing, and then busted his behind until he got where he was at. I'm here for trades. And frankly, I'm a member of an industrial union myself, though I work for myself, not a union shop since I don't employ anyone. That's all I'll say on that, for fear of turning this further into a political discussion. I'm in the distinct political minority here.
Real programmers use butterflies
I was young, raw, and cocky. Being in a union helped me smooth those edges out and gave me the training I needed to move forward. Eventually I moved into a position that was no longer union backed, but I'm grateful that being in a union allowed me the chance to grow.
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I grew up kinda hard, with untreated mental illness and spent some time on the streets as a homeless teen, got my GED as a result and never went to college. But I had hacked around on computers, programming since I was 8 years old. When I was 18 I went from being homeless to moving in with my b/f in seattle and from there straight to Microsoft. I started taking senior and lead positions before I was 20. Outside of software development, for example when I moved from Seattle to rural Washington state where there were not development jobs I drove a cab, jockeyed cash registers, and even worked on a farm. I'm not qualified to do anything skilled but write software. I can't tell you how grateful I am that this industry values talent over credentials. I'd be in a very different position today if it weren't for that. I have a friend I grew up with who never launched into a software career despite us programming together but his primary interest is language so I guess I understand - I learned C++, he learned Latin. I have another friend who I came up with together and helped him get into development, and then he moved to NYC and got rich, and he has a similar background as me, except not crazy. None of these people have degrees. Both are ridiculously intelligent. But it makes me think, you know? I count myself fortunate, and I am grateful not just for me, but for anyone like me who found their way despite lack of opportunities and access to "white collar" work generally.
Real programmers use butterflies
Yes me too. My issues were more family related, but I get it. :thumbsup::thumbsup: I did have a one semester class in basic when I was in college. But after that my career went OK. :java::java::java::java: Have made a good living from that one course ever since.:cool:
You go girl.
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I grew up kinda hard, with untreated mental illness and spent some time on the streets as a homeless teen, got my GED as a result and never went to college. But I had hacked around on computers, programming since I was 8 years old. When I was 18 I went from being homeless to moving in with my b/f in seattle and from there straight to Microsoft. I started taking senior and lead positions before I was 20. Outside of software development, for example when I moved from Seattle to rural Washington state where there were not development jobs I drove a cab, jockeyed cash registers, and even worked on a farm. I'm not qualified to do anything skilled but write software. I can't tell you how grateful I am that this industry values talent over credentials. I'd be in a very different position today if it weren't for that. I have a friend I grew up with who never launched into a software career despite us programming together but his primary interest is language so I guess I understand - I learned C++, he learned Latin. I have another friend who I came up with together and helped him get into development, and then he moved to NYC and got rich, and he has a similar background as me, except not crazy. None of these people have degrees. Both are ridiculously intelligent. But it makes me think, you know? I count myself fortunate, and I am grateful not just for me, but for anyone like me who found their way despite lack of opportunities and access to "white collar" work generally.
Real programmers use butterflies
Well, my story is a little boring, I also grew up, went to school and university. I am always glad that I learned at University a lot about mathematics, I am using Fourier transforms quite often and even Laplace. Wrt computers (computer science?) I learned about the PDP-8 and PDP-9, programming in assembler code, using DECtapes for storage. While I am not using PDP-8 or PDP-9 instruction sets nowadays, I really believe that it helps me in my programming. What I further learned was some language theory (type X grammars, 2VW grammars, attribute grammars etc etc), typical things you best learn when you are young. Now from time to time I even use these formalisms to structure my programs. I am fully aware of the fact that after my university education I could write programs but essentially could not program. In the early 70-ties I wrote some parser generators (LL and LALR) and a few compilers (one for Algol 60) and to put it mildly: with my current experience I would have written it differently. Nevertheless, for writing these programs I needed some math, though not calculus. But these programs had a size such that one starts to think about structuring the code and the development process (the language of the 70-ies was for me BCPL). After the 80-ties with Unix and C, I ended up as manager. The last 20 years of my working career I was involved in management, and there were days that I did not use a fourier or Laplace transform of though about formal verification of program (fragments) :-D . After my retirement I started programming again at a level that - at least what I think - would have been impossible without some formal training and some experience in my younger years. My current domain is software defined radio, and there is quite some math in my programs. Summarizing, writing good code is not something you learn from a book, but a slightly more formal training may make it easier to understand what code is good, why it is good, and what code smells
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I don't know. My FIL is a master electrician. Union man. Never had a degree either. He worked in a wonderbread factory before apprenticing, and then busted his behind until he got where he was at. I'm here for trades. And frankly, I'm a member of an industrial union myself, though I work for myself, not a union shop since I don't employ anyone. That's all I'll say on that, for fear of turning this further into a political discussion. I'm in the distinct political minority here.
Real programmers use butterflies
honey the codewitch wrote:
I'm in the distinct political minority here.
That's possible, but you aren't alone either. :)
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I think having worked on a farm is an important skill! Any industry with common sense values talent over credentials. The ones that don't are typically licensed or unionized, which is primarily a way to reduce competition and make it more lucrative for those who are allowed in.
Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.One of the problems with today's business environment is the emphasis on pieces of paper rather than demonstrated skills and knowledge. However, I wouldn't want to be treated by a physician who didn't have a Medical degree and a license! For the lay person, the pieces of paper provide at least some assurance that the person holding him/herself out as an expert really is.
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One of the problems with today's business environment is the emphasis on pieces of paper rather than demonstrated skills and knowledge. However, I wouldn't want to be treated by a physician who didn't have a Medical degree and a license! For the lay person, the pieces of paper provide at least some assurance that the person holding him/herself out as an expert really is.
If he didn't have a license, you could ask to see his his degree (most of them have it on the wall anyway) or proof of malpractice insurance, which someone unqualified would find rather hard to obtain.
Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing. -
Wow the formatting on your message is broken. I had to read it through email. I'm laughing at the last sentence though. :laugh:
Real programmers use butterflies
Oops. Fixed. When I want to use a bad word, one that Chris' filter edits, I put a <nobr></nobr> in the middle. I forgot the closing tag. It's tough being a salty old salt in these modern times :laugh: .
Software Zen:
delete this; -
honey the codewitch wrote:
and got rich
Consider this beyond wealth, but to include family/friends/vocation/recreation/everything, you may wish to consider something I read off of one of the front wall in a house-of-worship I attended many years ago. "Who is rich? He who is satisfied with his portion."
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
I totally agree with that. I'm much happier wanting what I have than what I don't. My friend didn't pursue material wealth either. It landed in his lap by way of a software contract with Mastercard.
Real programmers use butterflies
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sorry I get emotional with certain things.
mov ax, [feelings]
xor ax,axThere. :laugh:
Real programmers use butterflies
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hah it's fine. I'm not sure. The last four clients I've had didn't even ask for a resume. One of them scouted me from my articles here. Maybe I'm just being optimistic, but I think if you have talent and a little luck you can maybe still pull it off, even if the culture has changed. You may not be able to work at Microsoft anymore without a serious CV but I don't know - i'd like to think they'd still hire anyone that had the endurance for a 4 hour panel interview with whiteboarding. I've done that.
Real programmers use butterflies
honey the codewitch wrote:
i'd like to think they'd still hire anyone that had the endurance for a 4 hour panel interview with whiteboarding. I've done that.
The first time I read that I thought it said "waterboarding". Actually, having been through it, that's not too bad a comparison, especially if you are in an antihistamine fog during the interview. :)
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yeah well, i claim literary license. :laugh:
Real programmers use butterflies
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yeah well, i claim literary license. :laugh:
Real programmers use butterflies
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I grew up kinda hard, with untreated mental illness and spent some time on the streets as a homeless teen, got my GED as a result and never went to college. But I had hacked around on computers, programming since I was 8 years old. When I was 18 I went from being homeless to moving in with my b/f in seattle and from there straight to Microsoft. I started taking senior and lead positions before I was 20. Outside of software development, for example when I moved from Seattle to rural Washington state where there were not development jobs I drove a cab, jockeyed cash registers, and even worked on a farm. I'm not qualified to do anything skilled but write software. I can't tell you how grateful I am that this industry values talent over credentials. I'd be in a very different position today if it weren't for that. I have a friend I grew up with who never launched into a software career despite us programming together but his primary interest is language so I guess I understand - I learned C++, he learned Latin. I have another friend who I came up with together and helped him get into development, and then he moved to NYC and got rich, and he has a similar background as me, except not crazy. None of these people have degrees. Both are ridiculously intelligent. But it makes me think, you know? I count myself fortunate, and I am grateful not just for me, but for anyone like me who found their way despite lack of opportunities and access to "white collar" work generally.
Real programmers use butterflies
I have degrees, but most of the top notch programmers I know do not. Being self taught does wonders for your confidence and although coding styles, standards and protocols are often missing, the skills and understanding are what matter most. When I interview, most of the interviewers are impressed enough by a degree to call you in, but the questions fall along lines of what you know and what you can bring. They are most often concerned with key things in the technologies they consider tough to do and less on what lies behind the paper. Only Chemical Abstracts demanded a degree and then only because they advertise their degrees as a way of selling their product. Truth be told, I would rather have someone easy to work with and go to lunch with than a degree in the cubical next to me. Sometimes a second set of eyes is all you need. Other times, you need to share technical expertise or receive technical expertise, but it works better if the person is a good communicator. Having a degree got me the opportunities, but I don't even think about it when working. Unless someone hung their shingle in their cube, I wouldn't know or care.
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I grew up kinda hard, with untreated mental illness and spent some time on the streets as a homeless teen, got my GED as a result and never went to college. But I had hacked around on computers, programming since I was 8 years old. When I was 18 I went from being homeless to moving in with my b/f in seattle and from there straight to Microsoft. I started taking senior and lead positions before I was 20. Outside of software development, for example when I moved from Seattle to rural Washington state where there were not development jobs I drove a cab, jockeyed cash registers, and even worked on a farm. I'm not qualified to do anything skilled but write software. I can't tell you how grateful I am that this industry values talent over credentials. I'd be in a very different position today if it weren't for that. I have a friend I grew up with who never launched into a software career despite us programming together but his primary interest is language so I guess I understand - I learned C++, he learned Latin. I have another friend who I came up with together and helped him get into development, and then he moved to NYC and got rich, and he has a similar background as me, except not crazy. None of these people have degrees. Both are ridiculously intelligent. But it makes me think, you know? I count myself fortunate, and I am grateful not just for me, but for anyone like me who found their way despite lack of opportunities and access to "white collar" work generally.
Real programmers use butterflies
I work over in Yakima (mid-Washington state). there is a lot of software dev jobs around if you know where to look; they are just not software companies. The fruit and produce companies and supporting industry do have uses for developers. I never finished collage, when my first job offer came around, my wife and I were pretty hurting on income and took what I could. fast forward: now I'm 45, been developing software professionally for 23 years, but this year I'm going back to collage (WGU) to get a degree and be able to move up in my career a bit
honey the codewitch wrote:
I can't tell you how grateful I am that this industry values talent over credentials.
This really is a great industry to be in. and for the most part pretty forgiving on formal education, although we all have to constantly be learning something new to keep up to date.
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I grew up kinda hard, with untreated mental illness and spent some time on the streets as a homeless teen, got my GED as a result and never went to college. But I had hacked around on computers, programming since I was 8 years old. When I was 18 I went from being homeless to moving in with my b/f in seattle and from there straight to Microsoft. I started taking senior and lead positions before I was 20. Outside of software development, for example when I moved from Seattle to rural Washington state where there were not development jobs I drove a cab, jockeyed cash registers, and even worked on a farm. I'm not qualified to do anything skilled but write software. I can't tell you how grateful I am that this industry values talent over credentials. I'd be in a very different position today if it weren't for that. I have a friend I grew up with who never launched into a software career despite us programming together but his primary interest is language so I guess I understand - I learned C++, he learned Latin. I have another friend who I came up with together and helped him get into development, and then he moved to NYC and got rich, and he has a similar background as me, except not crazy. None of these people have degrees. Both are ridiculously intelligent. But it makes me think, you know? I count myself fortunate, and I am grateful not just for me, but for anyone like me who found their way despite lack of opportunities and access to "white collar" work generally.
Real programmers use butterflies
Started programming at 13 (1984) and never considered that my goal, which was computer engineering. Dropped out of engineering school 3 times, then lived for four years just wearing different hats. Went back to school to do Computer Science after doing web development from 94 to 96. Learned the fundamentals and left school in 2000 without a degree and have had a very successful career thereafter. But its hard emotionally, I think this profession tends to chew people up with the hours and mind games some people play.
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Started programming at 13 (1984) and never considered that my goal, which was computer engineering. Dropped out of engineering school 3 times, then lived for four years just wearing different hats. Went back to school to do Computer Science after doing web development from 94 to 96. Learned the fundamentals and left school in 2000 without a degree and have had a very successful career thereafter. But its hard emotionally, I think this profession tends to chew people up with the hours and mind games some people play.
I hear you. I've found working for myself to be the only way I can do it anymore.
Real programmers use butterflies
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I work over in Yakima (mid-Washington state). there is a lot of software dev jobs around if you know where to look; they are just not software companies. The fruit and produce companies and supporting industry do have uses for developers. I never finished collage, when my first job offer came around, my wife and I were pretty hurting on income and took what I could. fast forward: now I'm 45, been developing software professionally for 23 years, but this year I'm going back to collage (WGU) to get a degree and be able to move up in my career a bit
honey the codewitch wrote:
I can't tell you how grateful I am that this industry values talent over credentials.
This really is a great industry to be in. and for the most part pretty forgiving on formal education, although we all have to constantly be learning something new to keep up to date.
Yeah, I live in the western half, and I've had contracts from florida to canada but never local. *shrug* There's some IT, but there's not enough demand and I think most of the positions like you speak of are filled by Roger, the same software guy that worked there since 1992 and put their page on geocities.
Real programmers use butterflies
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I have degrees, but most of the top notch programmers I know do not. Being self taught does wonders for your confidence and although coding styles, standards and protocols are often missing, the skills and understanding are what matter most. When I interview, most of the interviewers are impressed enough by a degree to call you in, but the questions fall along lines of what you know and what you can bring. They are most often concerned with key things in the technologies they consider tough to do and less on what lies behind the paper. Only Chemical Abstracts demanded a degree and then only because they advertise their degrees as a way of selling their product. Truth be told, I would rather have someone easy to work with and go to lunch with than a degree in the cubical next to me. Sometimes a second set of eyes is all you need. Other times, you need to share technical expertise or receive technical expertise, but it works better if the person is a good communicator. Having a degree got me the opportunities, but I don't even think about it when working. Unless someone hung their shingle in their cube, I wouldn't know or care.
Rusty Bullet wrote:
Having a degree got me the opportunities, but I don't even think about it when working.
That sounds sensible. :) I had to learn styles and standards on the job, and it took me awhile. Since I haven't been working on teams so much my style has drifted more back to my natural form. But my natural form is almost what I'm stuck with now. It doesn't help that I code without thinking half the time these days, and the stuff even works sometimes. :laugh: Not sure if that's a feature or a bug, but ever since early 2017 I've been able to hold conversations while coding. That was about the same time I went over the high wall and had a massive psychotic event, and I think they might be related since I haven't been the same since. My routines got longer. My comments fewer. My code tighter. My designs better. So it's good and bad.
Real programmers use butterflies
