Software Development: The Great Equalizer
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I don't know. My FIL is a master electrician. Union man. Never had a degree either. He worked in a wonderbread factory before apprenticing, and then busted his behind until he got where he was at. I'm here for trades. And frankly, I'm a member of an industrial union myself, though I work for myself, not a union shop since I don't employ anyone. That's all I'll say on that, for fear of turning this further into a political discussion. I'm in the distinct political minority here.
Real programmers use butterflies
honey the codewitch wrote:
I'm in the distinct political minority here.
That's possible, but you aren't alone either. :)
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I think having worked on a farm is an important skill! Any industry with common sense values talent over credentials. The ones that don't are typically licensed or unionized, which is primarily a way to reduce competition and make it more lucrative for those who are allowed in.
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The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing.One of the problems with today's business environment is the emphasis on pieces of paper rather than demonstrated skills and knowledge. However, I wouldn't want to be treated by a physician who didn't have a Medical degree and a license! For the lay person, the pieces of paper provide at least some assurance that the person holding him/herself out as an expert really is.
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One of the problems with today's business environment is the emphasis on pieces of paper rather than demonstrated skills and knowledge. However, I wouldn't want to be treated by a physician who didn't have a Medical degree and a license! For the lay person, the pieces of paper provide at least some assurance that the person holding him/herself out as an expert really is.
If he didn't have a license, you could ask to see his his degree (most of them have it on the wall anyway) or proof of malpractice insurance, which someone unqualified would find rather hard to obtain.
Robust Services Core | Software Techniques for Lemmings | Articles
The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing. -
Wow the formatting on your message is broken. I had to read it through email. I'm laughing at the last sentence though. :laugh:
Real programmers use butterflies
Oops. Fixed. When I want to use a bad word, one that Chris' filter edits, I put a <nobr></nobr> in the middle. I forgot the closing tag. It's tough being a salty old salt in these modern times :laugh: .
Software Zen:
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honey the codewitch wrote:
and got rich
Consider this beyond wealth, but to include family/friends/vocation/recreation/everything, you may wish to consider something I read off of one of the front wall in a house-of-worship I attended many years ago. "Who is rich? He who is satisfied with his portion."
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
I totally agree with that. I'm much happier wanting what I have than what I don't. My friend didn't pursue material wealth either. It landed in his lap by way of a software contract with Mastercard.
Real programmers use butterflies
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sorry I get emotional with certain things.
mov ax, [feelings]
xor ax,axThere. :laugh:
Real programmers use butterflies
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hah it's fine. I'm not sure. The last four clients I've had didn't even ask for a resume. One of them scouted me from my articles here. Maybe I'm just being optimistic, but I think if you have talent and a little luck you can maybe still pull it off, even if the culture has changed. You may not be able to work at Microsoft anymore without a serious CV but I don't know - i'd like to think they'd still hire anyone that had the endurance for a 4 hour panel interview with whiteboarding. I've done that.
Real programmers use butterflies
honey the codewitch wrote:
i'd like to think they'd still hire anyone that had the endurance for a 4 hour panel interview with whiteboarding. I've done that.
The first time I read that I thought it said "waterboarding". Actually, having been through it, that's not too bad a comparison, especially if you are in an antihistamine fog during the interview. :)
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yeah well, i claim literary license. :laugh:
Real programmers use butterflies
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yeah well, i claim literary license. :laugh:
Real programmers use butterflies
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I grew up kinda hard, with untreated mental illness and spent some time on the streets as a homeless teen, got my GED as a result and never went to college. But I had hacked around on computers, programming since I was 8 years old. When I was 18 I went from being homeless to moving in with my b/f in seattle and from there straight to Microsoft. I started taking senior and lead positions before I was 20. Outside of software development, for example when I moved from Seattle to rural Washington state where there were not development jobs I drove a cab, jockeyed cash registers, and even worked on a farm. I'm not qualified to do anything skilled but write software. I can't tell you how grateful I am that this industry values talent over credentials. I'd be in a very different position today if it weren't for that. I have a friend I grew up with who never launched into a software career despite us programming together but his primary interest is language so I guess I understand - I learned C++, he learned Latin. I have another friend who I came up with together and helped him get into development, and then he moved to NYC and got rich, and he has a similar background as me, except not crazy. None of these people have degrees. Both are ridiculously intelligent. But it makes me think, you know? I count myself fortunate, and I am grateful not just for me, but for anyone like me who found their way despite lack of opportunities and access to "white collar" work generally.
Real programmers use butterflies
I have degrees, but most of the top notch programmers I know do not. Being self taught does wonders for your confidence and although coding styles, standards and protocols are often missing, the skills and understanding are what matter most. When I interview, most of the interviewers are impressed enough by a degree to call you in, but the questions fall along lines of what you know and what you can bring. They are most often concerned with key things in the technologies they consider tough to do and less on what lies behind the paper. Only Chemical Abstracts demanded a degree and then only because they advertise their degrees as a way of selling their product. Truth be told, I would rather have someone easy to work with and go to lunch with than a degree in the cubical next to me. Sometimes a second set of eyes is all you need. Other times, you need to share technical expertise or receive technical expertise, but it works better if the person is a good communicator. Having a degree got me the opportunities, but I don't even think about it when working. Unless someone hung their shingle in their cube, I wouldn't know or care.
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I grew up kinda hard, with untreated mental illness and spent some time on the streets as a homeless teen, got my GED as a result and never went to college. But I had hacked around on computers, programming since I was 8 years old. When I was 18 I went from being homeless to moving in with my b/f in seattle and from there straight to Microsoft. I started taking senior and lead positions before I was 20. Outside of software development, for example when I moved from Seattle to rural Washington state where there were not development jobs I drove a cab, jockeyed cash registers, and even worked on a farm. I'm not qualified to do anything skilled but write software. I can't tell you how grateful I am that this industry values talent over credentials. I'd be in a very different position today if it weren't for that. I have a friend I grew up with who never launched into a software career despite us programming together but his primary interest is language so I guess I understand - I learned C++, he learned Latin. I have another friend who I came up with together and helped him get into development, and then he moved to NYC and got rich, and he has a similar background as me, except not crazy. None of these people have degrees. Both are ridiculously intelligent. But it makes me think, you know? I count myself fortunate, and I am grateful not just for me, but for anyone like me who found their way despite lack of opportunities and access to "white collar" work generally.
Real programmers use butterflies
I work over in Yakima (mid-Washington state). there is a lot of software dev jobs around if you know where to look; they are just not software companies. The fruit and produce companies and supporting industry do have uses for developers. I never finished collage, when my first job offer came around, my wife and I were pretty hurting on income and took what I could. fast forward: now I'm 45, been developing software professionally for 23 years, but this year I'm going back to collage (WGU) to get a degree and be able to move up in my career a bit
honey the codewitch wrote:
I can't tell you how grateful I am that this industry values talent over credentials.
This really is a great industry to be in. and for the most part pretty forgiving on formal education, although we all have to constantly be learning something new to keep up to date.
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I grew up kinda hard, with untreated mental illness and spent some time on the streets as a homeless teen, got my GED as a result and never went to college. But I had hacked around on computers, programming since I was 8 years old. When I was 18 I went from being homeless to moving in with my b/f in seattle and from there straight to Microsoft. I started taking senior and lead positions before I was 20. Outside of software development, for example when I moved from Seattle to rural Washington state where there were not development jobs I drove a cab, jockeyed cash registers, and even worked on a farm. I'm not qualified to do anything skilled but write software. I can't tell you how grateful I am that this industry values talent over credentials. I'd be in a very different position today if it weren't for that. I have a friend I grew up with who never launched into a software career despite us programming together but his primary interest is language so I guess I understand - I learned C++, he learned Latin. I have another friend who I came up with together and helped him get into development, and then he moved to NYC and got rich, and he has a similar background as me, except not crazy. None of these people have degrees. Both are ridiculously intelligent. But it makes me think, you know? I count myself fortunate, and I am grateful not just for me, but for anyone like me who found their way despite lack of opportunities and access to "white collar" work generally.
Real programmers use butterflies
Started programming at 13 (1984) and never considered that my goal, which was computer engineering. Dropped out of engineering school 3 times, then lived for four years just wearing different hats. Went back to school to do Computer Science after doing web development from 94 to 96. Learned the fundamentals and left school in 2000 without a degree and have had a very successful career thereafter. But its hard emotionally, I think this profession tends to chew people up with the hours and mind games some people play.
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Started programming at 13 (1984) and never considered that my goal, which was computer engineering. Dropped out of engineering school 3 times, then lived for four years just wearing different hats. Went back to school to do Computer Science after doing web development from 94 to 96. Learned the fundamentals and left school in 2000 without a degree and have had a very successful career thereafter. But its hard emotionally, I think this profession tends to chew people up with the hours and mind games some people play.
I hear you. I've found working for myself to be the only way I can do it anymore.
Real programmers use butterflies
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I work over in Yakima (mid-Washington state). there is a lot of software dev jobs around if you know where to look; they are just not software companies. The fruit and produce companies and supporting industry do have uses for developers. I never finished collage, when my first job offer came around, my wife and I were pretty hurting on income and took what I could. fast forward: now I'm 45, been developing software professionally for 23 years, but this year I'm going back to collage (WGU) to get a degree and be able to move up in my career a bit
honey the codewitch wrote:
I can't tell you how grateful I am that this industry values talent over credentials.
This really is a great industry to be in. and for the most part pretty forgiving on formal education, although we all have to constantly be learning something new to keep up to date.
Yeah, I live in the western half, and I've had contracts from florida to canada but never local. *shrug* There's some IT, but there's not enough demand and I think most of the positions like you speak of are filled by Roger, the same software guy that worked there since 1992 and put their page on geocities.
Real programmers use butterflies
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I have degrees, but most of the top notch programmers I know do not. Being self taught does wonders for your confidence and although coding styles, standards and protocols are often missing, the skills and understanding are what matter most. When I interview, most of the interviewers are impressed enough by a degree to call you in, but the questions fall along lines of what you know and what you can bring. They are most often concerned with key things in the technologies they consider tough to do and less on what lies behind the paper. Only Chemical Abstracts demanded a degree and then only because they advertise their degrees as a way of selling their product. Truth be told, I would rather have someone easy to work with and go to lunch with than a degree in the cubical next to me. Sometimes a second set of eyes is all you need. Other times, you need to share technical expertise or receive technical expertise, but it works better if the person is a good communicator. Having a degree got me the opportunities, but I don't even think about it when working. Unless someone hung their shingle in their cube, I wouldn't know or care.
Rusty Bullet wrote:
Having a degree got me the opportunities, but I don't even think about it when working.
That sounds sensible. :) I had to learn styles and standards on the job, and it took me awhile. Since I haven't been working on teams so much my style has drifted more back to my natural form. But my natural form is almost what I'm stuck with now. It doesn't help that I code without thinking half the time these days, and the stuff even works sometimes. :laugh: Not sure if that's a feature or a bug, but ever since early 2017 I've been able to hold conversations while coding. That was about the same time I went over the high wall and had a massive psychotic event, and I think they might be related since I haven't been the same since. My routines got longer. My comments fewer. My code tighter. My designs better. So it's good and bad.
Real programmers use butterflies
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I grew up kinda hard, with untreated mental illness and spent some time on the streets as a homeless teen, got my GED as a result and never went to college. But I had hacked around on computers, programming since I was 8 years old. When I was 18 I went from being homeless to moving in with my b/f in seattle and from there straight to Microsoft. I started taking senior and lead positions before I was 20. Outside of software development, for example when I moved from Seattle to rural Washington state where there were not development jobs I drove a cab, jockeyed cash registers, and even worked on a farm. I'm not qualified to do anything skilled but write software. I can't tell you how grateful I am that this industry values talent over credentials. I'd be in a very different position today if it weren't for that. I have a friend I grew up with who never launched into a software career despite us programming together but his primary interest is language so I guess I understand - I learned C++, he learned Latin. I have another friend who I came up with together and helped him get into development, and then he moved to NYC and got rich, and he has a similar background as me, except not crazy. None of these people have degrees. Both are ridiculously intelligent. But it makes me think, you know? I count myself fortunate, and I am grateful not just for me, but for anyone like me who found their way despite lack of opportunities and access to "white collar" work generally.
Real programmers use butterflies
My first reaction was, "Oh great. Another software developer with untreated mental illness." But about being only suited to develop software, I feel ya'. I frequently wonder what I would have done to feed myself if there was no software development. Even today, when I sit down in front of a computer, I feel powerful and effective. When I try to do anything that touches the real world, it's like I'm stuck in syrup, slow and clumsy.
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My first reaction was, "Oh great. Another software developer with untreated mental illness." But about being only suited to develop software, I feel ya'. I frequently wonder what I would have done to feed myself if there was no software development. Even today, when I sit down in front of a computer, I feel powerful and effective. When I try to do anything that touches the real world, it's like I'm stuck in syrup, slow and clumsy.
I'm treated now, but I didn't know for most of my life, and even after I realized how ill I was it was hard to find someone that knew enough to diagnose me (my condition is tricky to diagnose but serious) much less treat me. I had a great support network at the time, and I can't imagine how hard/impossible it must be for someone in that position who doesn't have that. And relatable content. I'm a fish out of water unless you put a computer in front of me.
Real programmers use butterflies
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I grew up kinda hard, with untreated mental illness and spent some time on the streets as a homeless teen, got my GED as a result and never went to college. But I had hacked around on computers, programming since I was 8 years old. When I was 18 I went from being homeless to moving in with my b/f in seattle and from there straight to Microsoft. I started taking senior and lead positions before I was 20. Outside of software development, for example when I moved from Seattle to rural Washington state where there were not development jobs I drove a cab, jockeyed cash registers, and even worked on a farm. I'm not qualified to do anything skilled but write software. I can't tell you how grateful I am that this industry values talent over credentials. I'd be in a very different position today if it weren't for that. I have a friend I grew up with who never launched into a software career despite us programming together but his primary interest is language so I guess I understand - I learned C++, he learned Latin. I have another friend who I came up with together and helped him get into development, and then he moved to NYC and got rich, and he has a similar background as me, except not crazy. None of these people have degrees. Both are ridiculously intelligent. But it makes me think, you know? I count myself fortunate, and I am grateful not just for me, but for anyone like me who found their way despite lack of opportunities and access to "white collar" work generally.
Real programmers use butterflies
I had a great and supportive family. My father was a genius, master engineer (metal kind), master carpenter and inventor. My mother was a first class cook/chef, opera singer, history and geography expert and all round genius. They didn't push me at all but encouraged me in whatever I wanted to do. I had a great childhood, went to university to study Law, decided I didn't like lawyers and switched to a combined sciences degree, stuck with Computer Science through to a PhD and then became a professor of same. Quit after three years to get a real job programming for fighter jet development, invented an expert system (a version of which was still partly used 25 years later) and just generally had fun. ;) I used to lie about my qualifications on my CV, leaving out the PhD and the professorship after I found out it had actually cost me a job! :sigh: Since then, nearly all interviews have been exclusively about what projects I have done, not which pieces of paper I held. The PhD I did, the thesis was on computer game development back when min-computers were the smallest machines available and before the internet effectively existed, is basically useless as far as paper is concern and most of the tech I learned for it is obsolete. :|
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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Yeah, I live in the western half, and I've had contracts from florida to canada but never local. *shrug* There's some IT, but there's not enough demand and I think most of the positions like you speak of are filled by Roger, the same software guy that worked there since 1992 and put their page on geocities.
Real programmers use butterflies
In some situations, yes the same guy stays with the company forever, but when you do get an opening, it's total job security. programmers are very rare around here, but there is a demand. I can think of 4 companies currently looking for someone. I've had way too many job offers in the last year, but I'm very happy where I'm at currently and plan to retire from here if possible; so I end up telling them that I'll keep an open eye for other devs looking. My first job was with an industrial controls company, to automate the fruit warehouses, went everywhere from Canada, to Mexico, to Pennsylvania, but mostly in the Nortwest for 18 years. It was great work, and I could have worked there forever, but it got dull after awhile and had to move on. It was about that time that I discovered how much the industry was hurting for more good devs on everything from embedded, to desktop, to Web. They just don't tend to advertise on most job boards, always looking for someone local to hire.
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I had a great and supportive family. My father was a genius, master engineer (metal kind), master carpenter and inventor. My mother was a first class cook/chef, opera singer, history and geography expert and all round genius. They didn't push me at all but encouraged me in whatever I wanted to do. I had a great childhood, went to university to study Law, decided I didn't like lawyers and switched to a combined sciences degree, stuck with Computer Science through to a PhD and then became a professor of same. Quit after three years to get a real job programming for fighter jet development, invented an expert system (a version of which was still partly used 25 years later) and just generally had fun. ;) I used to lie about my qualifications on my CV, leaving out the PhD and the professorship after I found out it had actually cost me a job! :sigh: Since then, nearly all interviews have been exclusively about what projects I have done, not which pieces of paper I held. The PhD I did, the thesis was on computer game development back when min-computers were the smallest machines available and before the internet effectively existed, is basically useless as far as paper is concern and most of the tech I learned for it is obsolete. :|
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
Sounds like you lucked out in the parental department. And good for you for making the most of it. :)
Real programmers use butterflies
