That damn triangle
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John Honan wrote: And both triangles ARE the same, AND the hypotenuse is a straight line. No, the two main "shapes" are not triangles and their "hypotenuse" is not a straight line. Remember back to your days in geometry class. By definition both the red and dark green triangle MUST be similar triangles. (ie. They must have exactly equal angles). Red triangle angles: 90, x and y where tan x = 3/8 and y = 90 - x x = 20.556 degrees y = 69.444 degrees Dark green triangle angles: 90, x and y where tan x = 2/5 and y = 90 - x x = 21.801 degrees y = 68.199 degrees Let's take it a step further: Main "shape" angles: 90, x and y where tan x = 5/13 and y = 90 -x x = 21.037 y = 68.963 This "puzzle" is purely an optical illusion.
Work like you don't need the money.
Love like you've never been hurt.
Dance like nobody's watching.Okay thanks Mike (and all the other people who replied) - It's starting to sink in, slowly... The whole illusion is based around the small differences in these angles then, and the relatively large affect they have on surface area John www.silveronion.com[^]
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I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to bring this 'optical illusion' thread up again as its driving me mad. http://www.codeproject.com/lounge.asp?msg=528308#xx528308xx[^] http://www.briandela.com/files/picture.gif[^] I read the replies, but I must be stupid or something, cause none of them made sense. This triangle problem has occupied my thoughts since this time yesterday. I've recreated versions of it in Excel and Paintshop Pro, and still can't get my head around it!!! Help!!!! :eek::eek: Basically, the surface area of both large triangles is 32.5 squares. And both triangles ARE the same, AND the hypotenuse is a straight line. Why doesn't it add up? :(( John www.silveronion.com[^]
I don't understand your confusion. A rectangle thats 5 units by 3 units is 15 units. A rectangle thats 8 units by 2 units is 16 units. That's sort of really basic geometry isn't it? The triangles have nothing to do with it, ignore them.
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Okay thanks Mike (and all the other people who replied) - It's starting to sink in, slowly... The whole illusion is based around the small differences in these angles then, and the relatively large affect they have on surface area John www.silveronion.com[^]
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I don't understand your confusion. A rectangle thats 5 units by 3 units is 15 units. A rectangle thats 8 units by 2 units is 16 units. That's sort of really basic geometry isn't it? The triangles have nothing to do with it, ignore them.
Stan Shannon wrote: A rectangle thats 5 units by 3 units is 15 units. A rectangle thats 8 units by 2 units is 16 units. My confusion is because they should actually both be 15.5 units in area, not 15 and 16 as the illusion would have you believe. John www.silveronion.com[^]
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Thanks for trying to explain. But I still can't see how surface area just disappears between the two triangles, as they're both 32.5 This is how far I've taken it: http://www.silveronion.com/images/squares2.gif[^] John www.silveronion.com[^]
John Honan wrote: I still can't see how surface area just disappears It's not a question of surface area. It's not a matter or size, or shape, or angles, or hypotenuses, or any of that. It's a matter of 2 shapes (brown and light green) being made to line up with one size triangle (dark green) and then being made to line up with a differently sized triangle (red) ... and then expecting the results to match up the same way. Think of it this way. If you have 5 pounds of stuff in a 5 pound bag, and then put that 5 pounds into a bigger bag, isn't there going to be some empty space? Don't let the mathematics get in the way of seeing the simple solution. In your thinking, replace the red triangle with the value "8" and replace the dark green triangle with the value "5". Now, position the light green and brown triangles so they have a base of 5 (top image). Then position the triangles so they have a base of 8 (bottom image). How can you orient them any differently and still expect them to agree? You can't. There's no trick to it. At this point, it's not an optical illusion. You just can't get 5 pounds of stuff into an 8 pound bag without having some empty space. When you compare 2 results to 2 different answers and expect them to be the same, you aren't seeing the problem, and it doesn't have anything to do with surface area, size, angles, etc. And yes, it was evil that they brought this up again. Dave "You can say that again." -- Dept. of Redundancy Dept.
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Stan Shannon wrote: A rectangle thats 5 units by 3 units is 15 units. A rectangle thats 8 units by 2 units is 16 units. My confusion is because they should actually both be 15.5 units in area, not 15 and 16 as the illusion would have you believe. John www.silveronion.com[^]
You are allowing yourself to be confused by superflous details. The base of the one rectangle is 8 and its height is 3, the base of the other rectangle is 5 and its hight is 2. Obviously, you are going to get a different sized rectangular area depending upon how you associated those two triangles. 5 * 3 = 15 and 8 * 2 = 16. Thats all the math you need.
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I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to bring this 'optical illusion' thread up again as its driving me mad. http://www.codeproject.com/lounge.asp?msg=528308#xx528308xx[^] http://www.briandela.com/files/picture.gif[^] I read the replies, but I must be stupid or something, cause none of them made sense. This triangle problem has occupied my thoughts since this time yesterday. I've recreated versions of it in Excel and Paintshop Pro, and still can't get my head around it!!! Help!!!! :eek::eek: Basically, the surface area of both large triangles is 32.5 squares. And both triangles ARE the same, AND the hypotenuse is a straight line. Why doesn't it add up? :(( John www.silveronion.com[^]
Count the number of blocks and you will see where the hole comes from. The number of blocks on the bottom row for whole triangle is 13. If you look at the bottom rows for the green triangle, yellow block and green block and sum them then the total is only 12. :cool:
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I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to bring this 'optical illusion' thread up again as its driving me mad. http://www.codeproject.com/lounge.asp?msg=528308#xx528308xx[^] http://www.briandela.com/files/picture.gif[^] I read the replies, but I must be stupid or something, cause none of them made sense. This triangle problem has occupied my thoughts since this time yesterday. I've recreated versions of it in Excel and Paintshop Pro, and still can't get my head around it!!! Help!!!! :eek::eek: Basically, the surface area of both large triangles is 32.5 squares. And both triangles ARE the same, AND the hypotenuse is a straight line. Why doesn't it add up? :(( John www.silveronion.com[^]
the angle on the greenblue block is 5/2 and the angle on the red block is 8/3 you can see the broken hpyo hmmm hypothumhmmh (you know what i mean) here: http://www.compona.com/fake.gif[^]
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I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to bring this 'optical illusion' thread up again as its driving me mad. http://www.codeproject.com/lounge.asp?msg=528308#xx528308xx[^] http://www.briandela.com/files/picture.gif[^] I read the replies, but I must be stupid or something, cause none of them made sense. This triangle problem has occupied my thoughts since this time yesterday. I've recreated versions of it in Excel and Paintshop Pro, and still can't get my head around it!!! Help!!!! :eek::eek: Basically, the surface area of both large triangles is 32.5 squares. And both triangles ARE the same, AND the hypotenuse is a straight line. Why doesn't it add up? :(( John www.silveronion.com[^]
Here is the answer. angle 1 and 2 are NOT the same!!! Check the picture with clues. See the blue line I drew? See how on one there is a gap and on the other it cuts through? http://www.chepel.com/picture.jpg By number the answer is - 5:2 it not the same proportion as 8:3 for the red and green triangles.
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John Honan wrote: And both triangles ARE the same, AND the hypotenuse is a straight line. No, the two main "shapes" are not triangles and their "hypotenuse" is not a straight line. Remember back to your days in geometry class. By definition both the red and dark green triangle MUST be similar triangles. (ie. They must have exactly equal angles). Red triangle angles: 90, x and y where tan x = 3/8 and y = 90 - x x = 20.556 degrees y = 69.444 degrees Dark green triangle angles: 90, x and y where tan x = 2/5 and y = 90 - x x = 21.801 degrees y = 68.199 degrees Let's take it a step further: Main "shape" angles: 90, x and y where tan x = 5/13 and y = 90 -x x = 21.037 y = 68.963 This "puzzle" is purely an optical illusion.
Work like you don't need the money.
Love like you've never been hurt.
Dance like nobody's watching.Mike Mullikin wrote: Remember back to your days in geometry class. By definition both the red and dark green triangle MUST be similar triangles. I think this is true if you are comparing the red triangle to the dark green triangle. But, in this problem, we don't need to compare the 2 triangles to each other, we need to look at them together. Together, they are 8+5 horizontally and 3+2 vertically. In another arrangement, they are 5+8 horizontally and 2+3 vertically. I don't see that it makes any difference, because together, the result is the same. Dave "You can say that again." -- Dept. of Redundancy Dept.
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the angle on the greenblue block is 5/2 and the angle on the red block is 8/3 you can see the broken hpyo hmmm hypothumhmmh (you know what i mean) here: http://www.compona.com/fake.gif[^]
you beat me to it :mad:
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The hypotenuses of the triangles are not at the same angle. The hypotenuse of the large triangle is arctan(3/8) = 20.6 degrees to the baseline, while the hypotenuse of the small one is arctan(2/5) = 21.8 degrees. The top shape is therefore not a triangle, so there's no reason why they should fit together perfectly in the bottom shape. Try it yourself :) Ryan Being little and getting pushed around by big guys all my life I guess I compensate by pushing electrons and holes around. What a bully I am, but I do enjoy making subatomic particles hop at my bidding - Roger Wright (2nd April 2003, The Lounge)
Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late - John Nichol "Point Of Impact"I just got it also, the slopes are not the same, damn maths , I hate it, so simple yet, so magical! ;) I found that site the other day, the Eric Weisstein's World Of Mathematics (on wolfram site ) http://mathworld.wolfram.com/[^] and http://mathworld.wolfram.com/TriangleDissectionParadox.html[^] It's so great that I might one day start having fun with maths,
Maximilien Lincourt For success one must aquire one's self
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Mike Mullikin wrote: Remember back to your days in geometry class. By definition both the red and dark green triangle MUST be similar triangles. I think this is true if you are comparing the red triangle to the dark green triangle. But, in this problem, we don't need to compare the 2 triangles to each other, we need to look at them together. Together, they are 8+5 horizontally and 3+2 vertically. In another arrangement, they are 5+8 horizontally and 2+3 vertically. I don't see that it makes any difference, because together, the result is the same. Dave "You can say that again." -- Dept. of Redundancy Dept.
David Chamberlain wrote: I think this is true if you are comparing the red triangle to the dark green triangle. But, in this problem, we don't need to compare the 2 triangles to each other, we need to look at them together. No, they MUST be compared. In each "shape" the two triangles are oriented similarly to the "shape". In order for the "shape" to be considered a triangle the two triangles MUST have EXACTLY the same angles. Not approximately the same angles, they MUST be PERFECTLY, EXACTLY the same! They are not, so the two shapes are not triangles and there should be no expectation of fitting the pieces together as if they were. I simply can't make it any clearer. :~
Work like you don't need the money.
Love like you've never been hurt.
Dance like nobody's watching. -
the angle on the greenblue block is 5/2 and the angle on the red block is 8/3 you can see the broken hpyo hmmm hypothumhmmh (you know what i mean) here: http://www.compona.com/fake.gif[^]
Thanks :cool: John
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Thanks for trying to explain. But I still can't see how surface area just disappears between the two triangles, as they're both 32.5 This is how far I've taken it: http://www.silveronion.com/images/squares2.gif[^] John www.silveronion.com[^]
Don't pay any attention to anything on that graphic except the point of intersection between teh grey and light blue squares. That is the key.
Paul Watson wrote: "At the end of the day it is what you produce that counts, not how many doctorates you have on the wall." George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things." Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If the physicists find a universal theory describing the laws of universe, I'm sure the asshole constant will be an integral part of that theory.
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I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to bring this 'optical illusion' thread up again as its driving me mad. http://www.codeproject.com/lounge.asp?msg=528308#xx528308xx[^] http://www.briandela.com/files/picture.gif[^] I read the replies, but I must be stupid or something, cause none of them made sense. This triangle problem has occupied my thoughts since this time yesterday. I've recreated versions of it in Excel and Paintshop Pro, and still can't get my head around it!!! Help!!!! :eek::eek: Basically, the surface area of both large triangles is 32.5 squares. And both triangles ARE the same, AND the hypotenuse is a straight line. Why doesn't it add up? :(( John www.silveronion.com[^]
As several people have mentioned, the hypotenuse isn't straight. The dead giveaway here comes when you look at the 6th and 9th vertical lines and note how they don't intercept equivilant horizontal lines on both composite shapes.
Shog9
drifting along with the tumbling tumbleweeds...
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John Honan wrote: And both triangles ARE the same, AND the hypotenuse is a straight line. No, the two main "shapes" are not triangles and their "hypotenuse" is not a straight line. Remember back to your days in geometry class. By definition both the red and dark green triangle MUST be similar triangles. (ie. They must have exactly equal angles). Red triangle angles: 90, x and y where tan x = 3/8 and y = 90 - x x = 20.556 degrees y = 69.444 degrees Dark green triangle angles: 90, x and y where tan x = 2/5 and y = 90 - x x = 21.801 degrees y = 68.199 degrees Let's take it a step further: Main "shape" angles: 90, x and y where tan x = 5/13 and y = 90 -x x = 21.037 y = 68.963 This "puzzle" is purely an optical illusion.
Work like you don't need the money.
Love like you've never been hurt.
Dance like nobody's watching.The problem has nothing to do with angles one way or the other. If I took two triangles - one 80 degrees and the other 20 degrees, for example, and placed the vertex of one two units above the base of the other and counted 8 units down the base of the second, I would have 16 units. If I than took and moved that same rectangle up another unit and measured out five units I would have 15 units. I could modify those angles as much as I pleased and the results will always be exactly the same. Even if the angles were exactly the same, the "hole" would still be there, and it would always be exactly the same size.
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I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to bring this 'optical illusion' thread up again as its driving me mad. http://www.codeproject.com/lounge.asp?msg=528308#xx528308xx[^] http://www.briandela.com/files/picture.gif[^] I read the replies, but I must be stupid or something, cause none of them made sense. This triangle problem has occupied my thoughts since this time yesterday. I've recreated versions of it in Excel and Paintshop Pro, and still can't get my head around it!!! Help!!!! :eek::eek: Basically, the surface area of both large triangles is 32.5 squares. And both triangles ARE the same, AND the hypotenuse is a straight line. Why doesn't it add up? :(( John www.silveronion.com[^]
http://www.knowledgeautomation.com/graphics/triangle.JPG[^] :-D Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files" -
The problem has nothing to do with angles one way or the other. If I took two triangles - one 80 degrees and the other 20 degrees, for example, and placed the vertex of one two units above the base of the other and counted 8 units down the base of the second, I would have 16 units. If I than took and moved that same rectangle up another unit and measured out five units I would have 15 units. I could modify those angles as much as I pleased and the results will always be exactly the same. Even if the angles were exactly the same, the "hole" would still be there, and it would always be exactly the same size.
Stan Shannon wrote: The problem has nothing to do with angles one way or the other It has everything to do with the angles. The optical illusion happens because the mind wants to believe the two main "shapes" are triangles and are the same height and width yet have different areas. Since the green triangle and red triangle have only slightly different angles from each other and from the main "shape" the mind assumes they are all identical. In one case the orientation of the dissimilar angles produces a convex "hypotenuse", the other produces a concave "hypotenuse". The area difference between the convex and concave is exactly the area of the missing block.
Work like you don't need the money.
Love like you've never been hurt.
Dance like nobody's watching. -
http://www.knowledgeautomation.com/graphics/triangle.JPG[^] :-D Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files":cool: Now I understand it as well... :-D Paul ;) I have been afraid always. When you see something insurmountable ahead of you, say to yourself: "All right! I am afraid. Now that I've been properly afraid, let's go forward." That is the whole secret. - Jeanne d'Arc
