What the brain dead are talking about...
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I would still like to hear your response to my car example, oh wise one. Absurdity? Let's compare: I believe: God is a thing that somehow helped shape the universe. This statement doesn't conform God to any one thing. God could be a pink elephant, or could just have been whatever caused the Big Bang. This also shows that I admit I don't know enough to follow up the statement with anything else about God. Christians (note, this is not what Christianity believes, this is what Christians contort it into): There's an invisible man, who lives in the sky. He constantly watches everything 24 hours a day. And he has these 10 little rules, that, if you don't follow them, you will be sent to a bad place of fire and tourture forever and ever, but, he loves you, and he always needs money. This all powerful onipitent being can't seem to keep a grasp on money. Simplified: I belive that a God, the qualities of which are unknown, existed at one point in time, not sure when, and helped create the universe in someway, not sure how. No contraints, no wild assumptions about God. And I admit that I could be wrong, I don't push my beliefs on others, I state them and have some backup for them, but, in the end, I'm just as lost as the next person. What I disdain is people, such as you, who pin a right or wrong on a belief. No belief is better then the other, but without a logical reason, the person who believes is wrong. And before you come back with your "What about what you said a few lines up?", I was just stating how you think a person who makes no assumption, other then a God exists, has a more messed up view then someone that constantly makes assumptions. I have not been bashing the Christain belief, I'm just trying to get people to use their minds to think for themselves. Don't follow my beliefs, fine, as long as you think for yourself, that's all I'm saying. People die following religion blindly. Where religions are started and lead by people. People discuss beliefs. Where beliefs are started by a person, but not led. Beliefs can be modified and changed. Religions cannot. And I used to be one of those people who followed because of a book and because someone told me. But when I started thinking, and I questioned, since religions cannot be changed, I was told I was wrong. If you think and question a belief, it can be changed to fit new information. If it turns out that aliens created the Big Bang. I'm just like "Oh, well. Back to the drawing board." No wars, no killing. Just a change of mind.
..........Z
First I said: Your faith isn't right or wrong. Logic cannot validate it. Science cannot quantify it. Why not just revel in the absurdity of your ideas and in the fact that no matter what, you will never, ever, understand the universe. Then you said: What I disdain is people, such as you, who pin a right or wrong on a belief. Good talk, man. Thanks for paying attention. I always enjoy thoughtful discussion with those who are open to it. :rolleyes: BTW, nice George Carlin reference, but you really should attribute that quote about Christianity to him. - T
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First I said: Your faith isn't right or wrong. Logic cannot validate it. Science cannot quantify it. Why not just revel in the absurdity of your ideas and in the fact that no matter what, you will never, ever, understand the universe. Then you said: What I disdain is people, such as you, who pin a right or wrong on a belief. Good talk, man. Thanks for paying attention. I always enjoy thoughtful discussion with those who are open to it. :rolleyes: BTW, nice George Carlin reference, but you really should attribute that quote about Christianity to him. - T
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First I said: Your faith isn't right or wrong. Logic cannot validate it. Science cannot quantify it. Why not just revel in the absurdity of your ideas and in the fact that no matter what, you will never, ever, understand the universe. Then you said: What I disdain is people, such as you, who pin a right or wrong on a belief. Good talk, man. Thanks for paying attention. I always enjoy thoughtful discussion with those who are open to it. :rolleyes: BTW, nice George Carlin reference, but you really should attribute that quote about Christianity to him. - T
I don't consider this a discussion: I belive this... "You can't prove it." I belive what I do because.... "Still can't prove it." What are your thoughts? "You can't prove anything." That's it? "Can't prove it." How can someone who likes George Carlin, who thinks for himself, be so non-thinking? I still want to see your response to my car disscussion. (I believe this is the 2nd time I've asked that.) Wait,I think I forsee your response. "You can't prove the car exists."
..........Zack.......... Developer Extraordinaire && Full Time Geek
"Don't go out of your way to step on people's toes, but don't stop walking all-together." GCS\P\SS d- s-:- a-- C++$ U--- P--- L- E- W++ N o K-? w+++ O++ !M-- V PS+ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5+ X+ R++ tv++ b++ DI++ D+++ G+>G++++ e* h- r++ y+
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I don't consider this a discussion: I belive this... "You can't prove it." I belive what I do because.... "Still can't prove it." What are your thoughts? "You can't prove anything." That's it? "Can't prove it." How can someone who likes George Carlin, who thinks for himself, be so non-thinking? I still want to see your response to my car disscussion. (I believe this is the 2nd time I've asked that.) Wait,I think I forsee your response. "You can't prove the car exists."
..........Zack.......... Developer Extraordinaire && Full Time Geek
"Don't go out of your way to step on people's toes, but don't stop walking all-together." GCS\P\SS d- s-:- a-- C++$ U--- P--- L- E- W++ N o K-? w+++ O++ !M-- V PS+ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5+ X+ R++ tv++ b++ DI++ D+++ G+>G++++ e* h- r++ y+
See? You already know my response. Why did you insist I share it then? ... So you complain about personal attacks in religious discussions and then call me a non-thinker because I choose to disagree with your attack on people who 'don't think for themselves?' Your brain is doing the same thing as someone else's brain who simply accepts God and moves on - churning out tons of chemicals and generating electrical impulses based on your genetic template and your experiences on earth. Your brain uses up lots and lots of cells and energy to create a rational (sort of) argument and justification as to why God exists. Their brain uses only a little, because they don't require hours and hours of self-justification to reach the same conclusion. They accept God exists. They make some tea. And you claim your way is 'better?' What makes you think that's 'better?' What makes you so superior to someone who simply accepts one possible configuration of the universe and moves on to simply enjoy the gift of life? It's ridiculous of you to pass such judgement when you have nothing to judge by other than your own arbitrary perceptions of the value of a human life. - T
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See? You already know my response. Why did you insist I share it then? ... So you complain about personal attacks in religious discussions and then call me a non-thinker because I choose to disagree with your attack on people who 'don't think for themselves?' Your brain is doing the same thing as someone else's brain who simply accepts God and moves on - churning out tons of chemicals and generating electrical impulses based on your genetic template and your experiences on earth. Your brain uses up lots and lots of cells and energy to create a rational (sort of) argument and justification as to why God exists. Their brain uses only a little, because they don't require hours and hours of self-justification to reach the same conclusion. They accept God exists. They make some tea. And you claim your way is 'better?' What makes you think that's 'better?' What makes you so superior to someone who simply accepts one possible configuration of the universe and moves on to simply enjoy the gift of life? It's ridiculous of you to pass such judgement when you have nothing to judge by other than your own arbitrary perceptions of the value of a human life. - T
If we all thought the way you say is best, nothing would ever get done, we'd be living in a Dictatorship. We'd all be like "Well, he's right, don't question him." Nothing would ever get discovered: "The world is flat, no reason to argue with it." Again I am not better or more right then anyone else. I am not better or more right then anyone else. I am not better or more right then anyone else. I am not better or more right then anyone else. I could be wrong, I don't have all the answers. I could be wrong, I don't have all the answers. I could be wrong, I don't have all the answers. I could be wrong, I don't have all the answers. I just think that you should know what you believe in and why. I do not look down upon people that just accept things just because, I just think they should be thinking for themselves. I mean, God forbid people use their brains. I would tend to think if we have the gift of logic, we should use it? I dunno, mabye that's just me. I know this whole "Think for yourself" thing is always scary, but, lets try it. You never know. I don't call you a non-thinker because you dissagree. I call you a non thinker because you think that we should just accept and (wait, here it comes) not think about the reasons their could be a God and other Philosophical and Theological questions. Your hatred of free thinking is quite alarming. I end with two words, since you don't like to think freely you may not understand: lemming sheep
..........Zack.......... Developer Extraordinaire && Full Time Geek
"Don't go out of your way to step on people's toes, but don't stop walking all-together." GCS\P\SS d- s-:- a-- C++$ U--- P--- L- E- W++ N o K-? w+++ O++ !M-- V PS+ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5+ X+ R++ tv++ b++ DI++ D+++ G+>G++++ e* h- r++ y+
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If we all thought the way you say is best, nothing would ever get done, we'd be living in a Dictatorship. We'd all be like "Well, he's right, don't question him." Nothing would ever get discovered: "The world is flat, no reason to argue with it." Again I am not better or more right then anyone else. I am not better or more right then anyone else. I am not better or more right then anyone else. I am not better or more right then anyone else. I could be wrong, I don't have all the answers. I could be wrong, I don't have all the answers. I could be wrong, I don't have all the answers. I could be wrong, I don't have all the answers. I just think that you should know what you believe in and why. I do not look down upon people that just accept things just because, I just think they should be thinking for themselves. I mean, God forbid people use their brains. I would tend to think if we have the gift of logic, we should use it? I dunno, mabye that's just me. I know this whole "Think for yourself" thing is always scary, but, lets try it. You never know. I don't call you a non-thinker because you dissagree. I call you a non thinker because you think that we should just accept and (wait, here it comes) not think about the reasons their could be a God and other Philosophical and Theological questions. Your hatred of free thinking is quite alarming. I end with two words, since you don't like to think freely you may not understand: lemming sheep
..........Zack.......... Developer Extraordinaire && Full Time Geek
"Don't go out of your way to step on people's toes, but don't stop walking all-together." GCS\P\SS d- s-:- a-- C++$ U--- P--- L- E- W++ N o K-? w+++ O++ !M-- V PS+ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5+ X+ R++ tv++ b++ DI++ D+++ G+>G++++ e* h- r++ y+
Your hatred of free thinking lemming sheep you think that we should just accept and (wait, here it comes) not think about the reasons their could be a God I never said or implied any of this nonsense. Your assumptions are rude, unwarranted, and serve no purpose other than to try to get me angry so I will stop attacking your arguments and start attacking you, which is more easily ignored and defended. I now choose to do neither. :rolleyes: - T
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Your hatred of free thinking lemming sheep you think that we should just accept and (wait, here it comes) not think about the reasons their could be a God I never said or implied any of this nonsense. Your assumptions are rude, unwarranted, and serve no purpose other than to try to get me angry so I will stop attacking your arguments and start attacking you, which is more easily ignored and defended. I now choose to do neither. :rolleyes: - T
Then what was that whole "You think about reasons, while others just accept"? I don't want you attacking, I would like a disscussion. Which requires two people with oppsoing views and exchange of ideas, not one person throwing out ideas and the other just dismissing them. Actually, if you attacked me I'd just be like "OK, anyways, back to the discussion."
..........Zack.......... Developer Extraordinaire && Full Time Geek
"Don't go out of your way to step on people's toes, but don't stop walking all-together." GCS\P\SS d- s-:- a-- C++$ U--- P--- L- E- W++ N o K-? w+++ O++ !M-- V PS+ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5+ X+ R++ tv++ b++ DI++ D+++ G+>G++++ e* h- r++ y+
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:-D As a universal contrarian I wear my 1's as a badge of honor! "More capitalism, please..."
SEE WHAT I MEAN!!
Jason Henderson
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
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Christ is beyond reproach, Christianity and Christians are not. The organization of Christianity comes in many forms and it is made up of Christians. Christians are fallable human beings who frequently make mistakes and pass judgements when they have no right to do so. I was not being defensive of these people who don't like HP books. If you want to lump all Christians in the idiot namespace then that's your call, but when you say they threaten free speech and should shut up because they are ignorant, then that's where I think you're hypocritical.
Jason Henderson
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
Amen :rose: Anna :rose: Homepage | My life in tears "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work. Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Visual C++ Add-In
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An aquaintance of mine has a 13 year old daughter who is not allowed to read Harry Potter or watch the movies because she is supposed to be a "Christian". The parents haven't read any of the books either... :rolleyes:
There are 10 kinds of people - those that get binary and those that don't.
That's just plain daft. I'm a Christian, and I've no problem whatsoever with the Harry Potter books. I wonder if the same parents who condemn without reading them for themselves will watch "action" movies (which often promote violence, IMHO) without comment? Anna :rose: Homepage | My life in tears "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work. Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Visual C++ Add-In
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Apperently you don't remeber the huge Theology post a month or so ago. You can prove a God exists at one point int time. This is not the Christian God. This is a God that started the creation of the universe in some way. Proof though Cuasality: Things are happening. For things to happen there must have been a cuase. The universe cannot be an infinite loop of cause and effects. There must have been a first uncaused cause. This I call God. Proof though nothingness: The universe at the beggining was infinte nothingness. Yet, now, there are things in the universe. You cannot get something from nothing. There must have been a first uncreated crator, this I call God. I can never undertand you Atheists. It takes too much faith to be an Atheist. Given a 65 Mustang. Where did it come from? "A car factory." How do you know? "The car is here." How is the car being here a justification for the factory? "Something had to create the car." I don't see a factory, so it doesn't exists. "We can go and see it." The area where you claimed it was burnt down several years ago. "There will be evidence that it existed." Another factory was built on top of it and the blueprints and all the documents for the factory were in the building when it burnt down. "People saw it." Everyone who ever saw it is dead. Given the above senario, it is impossible to prove that a factory ever existed. Yet, a car is here. "The peices of metal rondomly assembled themselves." Where did the metal come from? "It was mined." Where is the mine. ..... Given that it is impossible to prove that a mine existed for the metal to come from. Now, you have no proof of a factory to build the car or a mine for the metal to come from. Yet, the car sits there. Something had to of created it. What created it may no longer exists, but something at one point did exists. There's your crazy logic. Atheism logic: God doesn't exists because I can't see him. And where is the scientific logic that God doesn't exist? You are talking about a Christian God and how scientific evidence sometimes contradicts the bible. I reiterate strongly. I am not talking about a specific deity. I am talking about a God that somehow, in some way, started out the universe. Wether he created everything individually, or just put the Big Bang into motion, it's unknown, but something had to put matter into the universe somehow. This is God.
..........Zack.......... Developer Extraordinaire && Full Time Geek
"Don't go out of your way to
Zachery wrote: You can prove a God exists at one point int time. This is not the Christian God. This is a God that started the creation of the universe in some way. If your theory is true, it is not the Muslim God either, since the Muslim God is cloned from the Christian and Jewish Gods. If the original is a fake, the clone is a fake too. People used to believe that earth was flat and they had enough 'proof' (such as yours) to do so. Believing is one thing but 'proving' is another. Faith does not require proof.
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Christian Graus wrote: Christianity and those who do not is a dividing line on the basis of intelligence Somewhat correct. The dividing line of intellegence is logic. There are several logic errors when talking about Christianity: 1.) Belief in God. This in and of itself is not a logic error. I belive in a God, but the difference is the why and how that concusion was come to. I believe because of several logic proofs that I won't get into 'cause it takes up too much time and it'll just belabor the point. Christians believe in God, but most don't know why and did not come to this belief through a series of logical arguments, but rather because a.) a book told them to b.) a high level of their faith told them to 2.) "Because (insert book of choice here) says so". The bible is a good book, but it's just that, a book. It's moral and historical value is indeed great, but that's about it. People take it too far. It's ok to take the factual stuff and have fun with it, but it's when you take the non-factual text and warp it to mean what you want. Anyone can do this, in fact, if you really read the bible, and not just the parts that fit your agenda, there's a lot of things that go against Christianity. Again, not gonna go into it now. 3.) Blind faith in a person who happens to be high up on the Christian totem pole. People need to put ther own mind to work and think about what different things mean. If you pay the church money 'cause you are supposed to or a book or person told you, logic error. If you pay because they give it to this charity which you belive in, no logic error. Basically, if you know what you believe and why, you're good to go. You can believe that the world is really a giant hunk of cheese, and if you logically came to that conclusion through much thought and research, go for it man!
..........Zack.......... Developer Extraordinaire && Full Time Geek
"Don't go out of your way to step on people's toes, but don't stop walking all-together." GCS\P\SS d- s-:- a-- C++$ U--- P--- L- E- W++ N o K-? w+++ O++ !M-- V PS+ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5+ X+ R++ tv++ b++ DI++ D+++ G+>G++++ e* h- r++ y+
Zachery wrote: Christians believe in God, but most don't know why and did not come to this belief through a series of logical arguments This is true in some ways ( many just follow the religion they happened to have been born to ), and false in others ( belief in God is not necessarily derived from logic, although it can be ) Zachery wrote: The bible is a good book, but it's just that, a book. How sad. You believe in God, but you don't believe He cares about us. Christian NO MATTER HOW MUCH BIG IS THE WORD SIZE ,THE DATA MUCT BE TRANSPORTED INTO THE CPU. - Vinod Sharma Anonymous wrote: OK. I read a c++ book. Or...a bit of it anyway. I'm sick of that evil looking console window. I think you are a good candidate for Visual Basic. - Nemanja Trifunovic
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Belief in God. This in and of itself is not a logic error. I belive in a God, but the difference is the why and how that concusion was come to. I believe because of several logic proofs that I won't get into You can't prove God exists. It's like trying to prove that the universe was created 5 seconds ago with all the scientific evidence to show that the universe is really billions of years old. So, you obviously put your faith in some kind of crazy logic that really seems to makes sense to you, but don't look down on others who choose to renew their faith using other equally ridiculous justifications. Faith is by definition ridiculous - the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. - T
Stupid Religious Troll wrote: the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. How interesting that you know enough to quote the Bible ( Hebrews 11, from memory, or maybe 13, for anyone taking notes ) The reason faith is subtantial ( which is what the verse says ), is because it is based on evidence, not just on an idea, or a chain of logic. Bible Christianity involves interaction with God, and initially, interaction in ways which the Bible rigidly defines. Christianity is unique in that when it is done according to the pattern in the manual, it is bound to fail every time unless there is a God backing it up. Christian NO MATTER HOW MUCH BIG IS THE WORD SIZE ,THE DATA MUCT BE TRANSPORTED INTO THE CPU. - Vinod Sharma Anonymous wrote: OK. I read a c++ book. Or...a bit of it anyway. I'm sick of that evil looking console window. I think you are a good candidate for Visual Basic. - Nemanja Trifunovic
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Are you questioning the existence of or are you stating the non-existence of a God? The act of questioning means you actively seek an answer. Being impartial to the many possibilities is essential. BTW, I have questioned, and doubted, but I have come to the conclusion that there is a God. Whether you call me an idiot or not will never change that.
Jason Henderson
"If you are going through hell, keep going." - Winston Churchill
One of the best lines in Matrix: Reloaded is when some council guy says 'not everyone believes as you do', and Morpheus says 'my belief does not require them to'. :-) Christian NO MATTER HOW MUCH BIG IS THE WORD SIZE ,THE DATA MUCT BE TRANSPORTED INTO THE CPU. - Vinod Sharma Anonymous wrote: OK. I read a c++ book. Or...a bit of it anyway. I'm sick of that evil looking console window. I think you are a good candidate for Visual Basic. - Nemanja Trifunovic