The Agile Cult
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Because it was forced on us by management. I think Gerry Schmitz's response sums it up quite nicely.
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Interesting but the problem here is that the manager was also an Agile instructor/guru/etc. Again, I will defer back to Gerry Schmitz's response - it applies here.
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And as an adult, you need to be "forced" to do them? Not trying to be snarky here, but that is why I use the kindergarten description for Agile.
I saw a lot times when managers who have no clue, are trying to figure out by the reaction of the developers to their suggestions how long a certain task would take. Agile just forces them to ask without being afraid to betray their ignorance.
Nick Polyak
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Interesting but the problem here is that the manager was also an Agile instructor/guru/etc. Again, I will defer back to Gerry Schmitz's response - it applies here.
Huge difference between being a good Agile instructor and being a good dev manager. The former requires good speaking skills and good knowledge of the material. The latter requires good listening skills, a great BS filter and the ability to herd cats.
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Interesting but the problem here is that the manager was also an Agile instructor/guru/etc. Again, I will defer back to Gerry Schmitz's response - it applies here.
As far as I can see, Garry and i say the same... Incompetent managers in charge of process or architecture decisions is the problem. Neither should be the responsibility of managers. Having the manager being the process "guru" is even worse - no chance of a second opinion if he does not listen. Knowing when not to apply a process - even if you had success with it earlier - is hard to do, and just because you are seen as a "guru" does not mean you have mastered this.
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As far as I can see, Garry and i say the same... Incompetent managers in charge of process or architecture decisions is the problem. Neither should be the responsibility of managers. Having the manager being the process "guru" is even worse - no chance of a second opinion if he does not listen. Knowing when not to apply a process - even if you had success with it earlier - is hard to do, and just because you are seen as a "guru" does not mean you have mastered this.
This article sort of confirmed my assertion. The article seems more like a psychology brief.https://codeproject.freetls.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/smiley_biggrin.gif Agile Ready Leaders Get Their Start in Kindergarten Published on December 23, 2016
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Agile smagile. I'm enjoying myself much more now that I'm a team of one and can just code.
Real programmers use butterflies
Team-of-one is the best.
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Yes they can be done, but often they are not. Agile kind of forces people to do them.
Nick Polyak
"Agile" doesn't force anything.
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Our team went through the same pain years ago, when consultants in the US tricked convinced management to go this route. So we followed the rules until the deadlines got too near, when we were told to revert to our normal mode of working, and get the job done.
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Member 14840496 wrote:
it means that one is not doing pure Agile.
No. There are lots of flavors of Agile. Regardless, take what is good and works for you from Agile and go with it.
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This article sort of confirmed my assertion. The article seems more like a psychology brief.https://codeproject.freetls.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/smiley_biggrin.gif Agile Ready Leaders Get Their Start in Kindergarten Published on December 23, 2016
I searched for that article and found it[^]. It is interesting that the article goes all the way down to the basics of:
Quote:
Consider the four basic tenets of leading in an agile environment (introduced in our first blog). Software engineer Kent Beck designated three of these as Be Honest, Be Kind, and Work in Small Increments. Jay added the fourth: Be Responsible.
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Richard MacCutchan wrote:
o we followed the rules until the deadlines got too near, when we were told to revert to our normal mode of working, and get the job done.
That's funny. You were less agile with Agile, but more agile without it. :rolleyes:
That's what I told my management when we were told we had to start doing (sorry) Agile. Me: "We're already Agile, have been since the beginning of the project." He: "Oh, but we'll use Scrum." Me: "We looked at Scrum, and adopted a few of their ideas, but our project isn't suited to Scrum. Scrum would slow us down."
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I searched for that article and found it[^]. It is interesting that the article goes all the way down to the basics of:
Quote:
Consider the four basic tenets of leading in an agile environment (introduced in our first blog). Software engineer Kent Beck designated three of these as Be Honest, Be Kind, and Work in Small Increments. Jay added the fourth: Be Responsible.
Yes, I read it. But I guess at some point we all need to grow up out of kindergarten and not have to explain to adults what they should have learned growing up. That we need other adults to show us how we (as adults) should inherently act and work by default. I agree with most of the Agile goals. My point is that it should be part of a personal practice that does not require herding people (like cats), spend excess hours and money to accomplish what responsible people should be doing, and if you do, then maybe those individuals are in the wrong career field.
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The group I was in was doing Agile already, but without the kindergarten classes. But since pair programming IS part of Agile, not practicing it means that one is not doing pure Agile.
Member 14840496 wrote:
But since pair programming IS part of Agile
Eh? I've been working in an agile environment for 5 years now and we hardly do any pair programming. In fact I have never pair programmed during that time.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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Yes, I read it. But I guess at some point we all need to grow up out of kindergarten and not have to explain to adults what they should have learned growing up. That we need other adults to show us how we (as adults) should inherently act and work by default. I agree with most of the Agile goals. My point is that it should be part of a personal practice that does not require herding people (like cats), spend excess hours and money to accomplish what responsible people should be doing, and if you do, then maybe those individuals are in the wrong career field.
Member 14840496 wrote:
But I guess at some point we all need to grow up out of kindergarten and not have to explain to adults what they should have learned growing up.
That's exactly what I thought I as read it. On the Agile thing...I really do like the 12 Agile Principles[^]. They are great guidance. And that's it. Just really good guidance -- not strict rules or specific methodology, just really nice guidance. But, THE IT INDUSTRY & PUBLISHING INDUSTRY couldn't sell that for $50 - $3,000 a pop so they had to stretch it out. :rolleyes:
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Member 14840496 wrote:
But since pair programming IS part of Agile
Eh? I've been working in an agile environment for 5 years now and we hardly do any pair programming. In fact I have never pair programmed during that time.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
Lucky you. https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/smiley\_smile.gif So I guess if management says you WILL do pair programming, you will refuse. Pair programming is part of the Agile manifesto. We even had a seminar on how great it is. Nothing helps you concentrate more than some person breathing down your neck all day, or, you breathing down theirs. The fact that some companies/leaders/managers do not force it - great for them. Now get rid of the rest of the nonsense so we can get something done.
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Lucky you. https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/smiley\_smile.gif So I guess if management says you WILL do pair programming, you will refuse. Pair programming is part of the Agile manifesto. We even had a seminar on how great it is. Nothing helps you concentrate more than some person breathing down your neck all day, or, you breathing down theirs. The fact that some companies/leaders/managers do not force it - great for them. Now get rid of the rest of the nonsense so we can get something done.
Member 14840496 wrote:
Pair programming is part of the Agile manifesto.
That statement is patently untrue. Any qualified Agile guru will tell you so.
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Member 14840496 wrote:
Pair programming is part of the Agile manifesto.
That statement is patently untrue. Any qualified Agile guru will tell you so.
Sorry for the choice of words. This will fit better... Since pair programming is a practice of XP it's had a lot of influence in the agile community. As a result it's often mentioned as an agile practice - meaning a practice that's commonly used by people on agile projects. But that's an observation not a prescription. Emphasis on "commonly used" here. Never heard of this nonsense until Agile came out. So change manifesto to connected with.
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The group I was in was doing Agile already, but without the kindergarten classes. But since pair programming IS part of Agile, not practicing it means that one is not doing pure Agile.
