Would you choose C#...
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I hope they will learn how to use that debugger - I've seen courses where there was not a word about it...
“Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.” ― Terry Pratchett, Hogfather
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If a so-called teacher doesn't know their subject, they deserve contempt. No one, teachers included, deserves respect merely by virtue of their job title.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
In the US, unlike in decades past when public education was actually education, teachers get education degrees. They are taught they can teach any subject because they are "educators". In a lot of STEM-type classes (like programming), it is quite likely one or more students know the subject matter better than the teacher. Even back in the late 80s/early 90s when my oldest son was taking computer-oriented classes in high school, he knew the subject matter better than the teacher who was an "educator" but had no background in computer science. In the days when dinosaurs walked the earth, at least my 9th grade science teacher had a BS in General Science and actually knew her subject. same for my math teachers (BS in Math).
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Eddy Vluggen wrote:
For a kid, I'd recommend procedural languages; I did AMOS growing up, a kind of basic. It allowed to write instructions and play with parameters, and soon I started on my own Eliza-clone (which is totally doable in Basic and a fun exercise).
This! Start the class with Notepad, command line compilation, and console applications. No IDE, no GUI, no classes. Just learning to think logically and solve problems. C# will work for this, but I'd probably use something different. My sons took programming-type classes in high school and college -- they spent more time making pretty output than they did making correct output. This was typical for these classes. Folks often think of OO as the Holy Grail. It's not -- I've dealt with far more badly designed class structures than I have badly designed procedural programs. When the only available tool is a hammer, everything look like a nail.
When teaching, I'd like to first introduce programming as a list of instructions. Architecture and concepts can wait until they enjoy it :thumbsup:
BryanFazekas wrote:
Folks often think of OO as the Holy Grail. It's not
I'm one of those; but starting there is not for most people. First you learn about methods and variables. Once you run into the limits of those, OO starts making sense. Before that, it seems a bit.. nonsense that you just do because everyone else does it.
Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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I'd say yes - it makes pretty sure the code works before it lets it run (unlike Python), it starts simple, but builds to some incredible power (unlike PHP), and it's a real language (unlike VB). The error messages and the IDE itself are second to none, and the integrated debugging support is worth it's weight in gold for a beginner.
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony "Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
I am curious as to why you do not consider VB a "real language". That is like saying that - for example - German or Italian or Swahili or Punjabi are not real languages. I am actually and currently fluent in five different spoken languages -- and yet it would never occur to me that a language I do not speak or use is not a "real language". Point is: let's all stop making these silly arguments about a programming language or the other. Statements of that kind they only serve to reveal an elitist approach or a deep misunderstanding of the language's purpose. Plenty of excellent and successful developers grew up with Basic, Visual Basic, VB.NET... only to transition to other languages because of many different reasons... just NOT because those languages are not "real languages". I wonder what would you even say about ASM... :) Just my two cents.
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...as the language for teaching newcomers? That what they did at my daughter's school... She asked me if it is a good one - I told it is, to not to confuse her, but to be honest I'm not sure of it entirely...
“Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.” ― Terry Pratchett, Hogfather
I guess it's ok. I got taught OOP in Java before I returned to C++ (which was my first language oddly, C was my second). But once you start judging all languages from the lens of C (and even ARM assembler), it's hard to like any new ones. With exception of LISP :laugh:
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...as the language for teaching newcomers? That what they did at my daughter's school... She asked me if it is a good one - I told it is, to not to confuse her, but to be honest I'm not sure of it entirely...
“Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.” ― Terry Pratchett, Hogfather
Don't be confused, bro! Studying C# is VERY good idea! You not only study programming itself, but will have PRACTICAL and POWERFUL language in skills. C# is "hard" only if you take all features at once. But if you simply create 10-lines helpers inside Main(), it's EASY! :) Everything depends from teacher - if he is professional, studying can be cool. I support C#!
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Absolutely: respect is something you earn, not deserve. Being treated respectfully until you prove yourself unworthy is a different thing altogether. Generally speaking, those who demand respect are the least worthy of it in my experience.
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony "Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Seems like a reasonable choice to me, comparable or better compared to common alternatives (Java or C++). As long as it gets taught in "C-like C# first, fancy things after" kind of order, and doesn't immediately start to confuse with too much "magic".
I used it to teach programming to an Art Major (female), and to both my boys that have mathematical minds. All 3 are developers now and do very well in several other languages. The result was that they learned well what they should and should not do in programming because it really takes away (C# does) the good-programmer responsibility of not doing stupid stuff like accessing linked lists with modify before addressing the possibility of collisions. Having said that, I think the basis and the simple things need to be learned first, not matter what the language. Beginning with concepts that would allow the student translate their programming logic to any other language is paramount to their formation. My two bits.
Tony G.
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I'd say yes - it makes pretty sure the code works before it lets it run (unlike Python), it starts simple, but builds to some incredible power (unlike PHP), and it's a real language (unlike VB). The error messages and the IDE itself are second to none, and the integrated debugging support is worth it's weight in gold for a beginner.
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony "Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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...as the language for teaching newcomers? That what they did at my daughter's school... She asked me if it is a good one - I told it is, to not to confuse her, but to be honest I'm not sure of it entirely...
“Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.” ― Terry Pratchett, Hogfather
The reality is that the choice of language really doesn't matter, although I would agree that restricting to a simpler subset during initial teaching helps. The goal is to understand the basics of programming, not the complexities of the task or the tool. After all, getting someone to understand "I = I + 1" can often be the divider that separates the programmers from the rest of the world. Before we get into the guts of the .NET library, it's necessary to first understand decisions, loops, and so on. My first language was FORTRAN IV, followed by other high- and low-level languages, now numbering over 30. I have used COBOL as a first language when creating new programmers, with good success. I knew someone who actually used assembler as the first programming language when teaching newbies, on the grounds that that way people would learn both how to program and how computers worked all at the same time.
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...as the language for teaching newcomers? That what they did at my daughter's school... She asked me if it is a good one - I told it is, to not to confuse her, but to be honest I'm not sure of it entirely...
“Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.” ― Terry Pratchett, Hogfather
I would say it's a good choice, yes. It has a well-balanced set of language features but frees you from having to deal with managing memory and makes it hard[er] to shoot yourself in the foot. BUT, Interop is a whole other thing...
Paul Sanders. If I had more time, I would have written a shorter letter - Blaise Pascal. Some of my best work is in the undo buffer.
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It's possible to set the C# language version on the project, version 7.0 should provide a good baseline for students.
I use LangVersion 3, I'd still with that.
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I got an entire degree in Computer Science and there wasn't a word about the debugger...
Bond Keep all things as simple as possible, but no simpler. -said someone, somewhere
Most of my education and early career were on VAX/VMS where the debugger is near impossible to use. We did use Turbo Pascal a bit as well, which was nice. Not having a usable debugger leads to a better developer with better debugging skills. A debugger is a course of last resort.
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Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter wrote:
Do we live in the same country?
Geographically - yes. :)
Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter wrote:
(I used to be like her - it wasn't easy on me, so I decided to try and lead her on different paths...)
At age 58, I am like her. As you say, it's not easy, but all I need out of life is to support my family and enjoy my hobbies. World-conquering can wait. :) My biggest problem is managers who see my age and experience, and want to "promote" me from specification, design, and coding to a managerial or a "people-facing" position. :omg:
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.
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...as the language for teaching newcomers? That what they did at my daughter's school... She asked me if it is a good one - I told it is, to not to confuse her, but to be honest I'm not sure of it entirely...
“Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.” ― Terry Pratchett, Hogfather
I wouldn't. In my opinion a beginner needs to start with a simple language and learn more complex languages as he gains experience. With the result that he then knows several languages and can compare and contrast their features and syntax and make decisions about what he likes and doesn't like. Like many, I first learned BASIC, then Pascal, then a little COBOL and ForTran and assembly, then C, dabbled in C++, and finally C# for the past twenty years. Any object-oriented language is going to be too complex, with too much boiler-plate code the beginner doesn't need to know about (yet). Even C is too complex, requiring the developer to know about including libraries and linking them. A modern version of BASIC (not VB) should still be a good option for a beginner to get a feel for how to think about giving a computer instructions. Python (which I'm not about to learn) is pretty easy and can implant good indenting and formatting habits early. My kid had a couple of classes in Java. Well not really. Really just how to modify an existing MineCraft object, build it, and use it. He learned nothing.
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...as the language for teaching newcomers? That what they did at my daughter's school... She asked me if it is a good one - I told it is, to not to confuse her, but to be honest I'm not sure of it entirely...
“Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.” ― Terry Pratchett, Hogfather
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Scratch[^] remains my choice for so many reasons, mainly because learning about sw engineering is not about learning a programming language, but learning about programming theory. Then C# is a good high level language to start with. As would by Python. I started with assembler, and this taught me far more than programming : a lot of computer architecture knowledge, which I still find useful today.
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...as the language for teaching newcomers? That what they did at my daughter's school... She asked me if it is a good one - I told it is, to not to confuse her, but to be honest I'm not sure of it entirely...
“Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.” ― Terry Pratchett, Hogfather
Learning Programming is NOT about the language. It's about the concepts, the building blocks, the approaches. Back in the day, we had paper terminals and "edlin on steroids called TECO" (ex$$) Nowadays, the software development ENVIRONMENT takes students HOURS to wrap their brains around. I remember teaching Java, using NetBEANS, and the CLASSPATH problem all the kids ran into, despite being in the handouts. LOL. It boils down to: - Inputs - Outputs - Variables/Data Structures - Computation (Conditionals, Loops, Algorithms) - What's Written for the "compiler" - What's Written for the NEXT Developer! I liked focusing on how do you decide between FOR/WHILE (and graded down if you got it backwards/wrong). It's a skill. You have to actually open up the software, and key something in, know how to run it. With some of the modern IDEs... That's not trivial your first time!
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I got an entire degree in Computer Science and there wasn't a word about the debugger...
Bond Keep all things as simple as possible, but no simpler. -said someone, somewhere
We hadn't had a debugger too - but we did learned about the ideas and how to implement and use them (in code) to debug the behavior of our app...
“Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.” ― Terry Pratchett, Hogfather
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I wouldn't. In my opinion a beginner needs to start with a simple language and learn more complex languages as he gains experience. With the result that he then knows several languages and can compare and contrast their features and syntax and make decisions about what he likes and doesn't like. Like many, I first learned BASIC, then Pascal, then a little COBOL and ForTran and assembly, then C, dabbled in C++, and finally C# for the past twenty years. Any object-oriented language is going to be too complex, with too much boiler-plate code the beginner doesn't need to know about (yet). Even C is too complex, requiring the developer to know about including libraries and linking them. A modern version of BASIC (not VB) should still be a good option for a beginner to get a feel for how to think about giving a computer instructions. Python (which I'm not about to learn) is pretty easy and can implant good indenting and formatting habits early. My kid had a couple of classes in Java. Well not really. Really just how to modify an existing MineCraft object, build it, and use it. He learned nothing.
When my youngest kid (9) asked me to teach him programming a brought out C64 with BASIC...
“Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.” ― Terry Pratchett, Hogfather
