"Did you come as a potential student, or as a teacher?"

Slacker007

Eddy Vluggen wrote:

I just need to keep my big. mouth. shut.

Maybe this is the real reason you are in school. To learn this very skill, and I do think it is a skill that must be learned by most people, including myself. Just a thought... :-D

Lost User

That, and "soft skills". I did not even see it on the curriculum, and old devs' do not socialize. But to be frank, they teach theory and in the real world we do things differently. It should be more practical, less ideology, and more up to date. I will do it, ofcourse, as it is a financial bonus. ..but it's wrong, on many levels. From duck typing to documentation.

Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.

Matthew Dennis

"In theory there is no difference between Theory and Practice. On the other hand, in Practice ... " Some brilliant prof I had in the stone age.

"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana."

Lost User

"In theory, we do 9 months of research before coding and spend 3 months on coding." On your first job you meet the manager that expects first results in a month, or you're out. It's not like we spend 75% of our time documenting. Theory and the real world have never met.

Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.

Matthew Dennis

Unless you are working for a consulting firm on a government contract. [Consulting from Despair.com](https://despair.com/products/consulting?\_pos=1&\_sid=a1a3fdd79&\_ss=r)

"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana."

Lost User

Waterfall simply means one person took the time to figure out what the end product should look like. Pay me now or pay me later (analysis and design). A badly designed system makes changes harder and therefore is more expensive. Sometimes a lot. And bad designs are harder to code in the first place ... witness the saga of the "data grid", which is only one control; consistently misused; wasting countless hours.

"Before entering on an understanding, I have meditated for a long time, and have foreseen what might happen. It is not genius which reveals to me suddenly, secretly, what I have to say or to do in a circumstance unexpected by other people; it is reflection, it is meditation." - Napoleon I

Sander Rossel

Is the teacher "wrong" or does he have a different view of things? Just because I've never seen UML in the real world doesn't mean it's wrong or not useful (or not used, for that matter). I've seen plenty of waterfall with a side note of scrum. Waterfall is safe for customers, they know what they're going to get and they know what it's going to cost (approx.). However, things change, and so scrum is sort of introduced during the project. It's never fully scrum, but it isn't strictly waterfall anymore either. In fact, that's how I do some of my projects. A bug in production could be 20 times more expensive than catching it in the specs, or 100 times more expensive, or it could cost human lives, or it could be very cheap. Maybe 20 is an average that we don't know about, but that someone calculated? You can bitch about Python all you want, but it's one of the most used languages world wide, so it must be doing something right. You focus on how it's not C#, or whatever language you code in, and therefore it must be bad (as we all do), but try to learn from it instead. How and why is it different from your regular language? Does it do things better or faster or easier? I really hate school, always have. So much so that I didn't even finish my IT degree (not even the first year) (although I already had another master's degree at that time). I can't deny I've learned a thing or two from it though. The Functional Programming course even changed the way I code (you'd probably say "but everything is OOP, who the heck uses Haskell!?") I've even been able to impress people with "the stupid stuff I don't need anyway" :D So yeah, if you don't want this, quit, because it's going to take a lot of time and effort. If you do want it (or need it), change your perspective, or it's going to be a really hard-earned degree.

Best, Sander Azure DevOps Succinctly (free eBook) Azure Serverless Succinctly (free eBook) Migrating Apps to the Cloud with Azure arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript

Richard Andrew x64

Sander Rossel wrote:

A bug in production could be 20 times more expensive than catching it in the specs

I dare to say that a bug is by definition an error in implementation. So I don't see how you could catch a bug in the specification stage :confused:

The difficult we do right away... ...the impossible takes slightly longer.

charlieg

Not enough context... without reading the replies, I'm thinking too much crack. What are you ranting about?

Charlie Gilley “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759 Has never been more appropriate.

charlieg

You can't, it's bs and a pipe dream. See reply/comments to Sander.

Charlie Gilley “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759 Has never been more appropriate.

charlieg

Comment 1: python statement is spot on. You might not like python, or JS or whipped cream, but when in Rome... Comment 2: catching bugs is very expensive when you find it in production is NONSENSE. The waterfall method came from systems engineering - really big systems. So, if you're designing something like a B2 Spirit or an F22 Raptor - finding a "bug" is more of a systems requirement failure. We're talking the entire system, not software. The problem with applying waterfall to s/w development is that waterfall's roots come from system engineering, and most software really does not play in that realm. Software's problem is that it is so flexible, you are making something to solve a problem that the customer cannot really grasp. So, you need to get something in front of them as quickly as possible - hence extreme/agile development approaches.

Charlie Gilley “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759 Has never been more appropriate.

Lost User

You make some good points, thanks :)

Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.

Lost User

charlieg wrote:

Not enough context... without reading the replies, I'm thinking too much crack

A crack in what? It's the result from another post; I'm considering going back to school. More education isn't going to set me back, is it? :)

Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.

charlieg

lol, I was referring to the ubiquitous illegal drug - your post seemed to be the ramblings of a madman or a review of a bad interview :)

Charlie Gilley “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759 Has never been more appropriate.

Sander Rossel

I write the spec, "1 + 1 = 3". You proofread and point out the error. Bug caught ;)

Best, Sander Azure DevOps Succinctly (free eBook) Azure Serverless Succinctly (free eBook) Migrating Apps to the Cloud with Azure arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript

Richard Andrew x64

That wouldn't be a bug, that would be a design flaw. :)

The difficult we do right away... ...the impossible takes slightly longer.

Lost User

charlieg wrote:

your post seemed to be the ramblings of a madman

That's part of my nature. I'm blessed with being naturally confused. English isn't my first language, and I was thinking cracks like in a wall, so your post didn't make sense. Drugs, unfortunately, no.

charlieg wrote:

or a review of a bad interview :)

It sort of was. I went to see if I could do that education. My biggest obstacle is my big mouth and arrogance. I can btw and think I will. Education never hurt anyone. Looked it up, and crack is cheap cocaine. You seriously don't want that in your blood. For anyone addicted, mail me today.

Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.

Lost User

charlieg wrote:

Comment 1: python statement is spot on. You might not like python, or JS or whipped cream, but when in Rome...

You are absolutely right. I want to walk as a Roman.

charlieg wrote:

The waterfall method came from systems engineering - really big systems

Spot on.

Bastard Programmer from Hell :suss: "If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.

Sander Rossel

I guess, depending on your perspective :laugh:

Best, Sander Azure DevOps Succinctly (free eBook) Azure Serverless Succinctly (free eBook) Migrating Apps to the Cloud with Azure arrgh.js - Bringing LINQ to JavaScript

jschell

Eddy Vluggen wrote:

they teach theory and in the real world we do things differently. It should be more practical, less ideology,

Seems just like any school. Certainly in my electrical engineering lab class (you know actual hands on) the two actual practicing engineers that were my lab partners (taking it for the same reason as you - more money from the company) showed that early on when they instantly recognized that a electrical component was bad. As to my confusion when I was busily trying to find any info at all that lead them to that conclusion from the class literature they just pointed out that they 'knew' it. I believe they also pointed out that for a specific type of electrical circuit that absolutely no one would actually build it that way. Supposed to be a functioning amplifier but it was missing necessary components that would keep a practical device from running away with feedback noise. Certainly part of the reason that to this day I do not equate a 'formal education' as an equivalent to any amount of actual professional programming.