Did I dodge a bullet?
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Not exactly the same situation, but I had something similar. At the beginning one guy (tech guru of the dept.) was getting really annoying with questions and arguments against me. I just stood up and said: "Up to this point, I do not care if you take me, I don't want to work with such a guy" and left. 2 years later, job was still not occupied... what a surprise!
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
I know someone that nobody can/will work with. It's not because of their demeanor though they can be a bit abrasive, it's more awkward than egotistical. The reason nobody can work with them is that they developed the entire infrastructure for their websites from the ground up over the course of decades, in PHP and JS. No JQuery, no React, none of that, but all those features - yes- hand rolled. Funny thing that nobody can learn it. "But I documented it thoroughly" "You don't understand: You can't google it. Documentation can't answer arbitrary questions, and you don't have the time to give a course" They and their employer are both too invested. And they're all making good money, but they can't grow their business as a result.
Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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I know someone that nobody can/will work with. It's not because of their demeanor though they can be a bit abrasive, it's more awkward than egotistical. The reason nobody can work with them is that they developed the entire infrastructure for their websites from the ground up over the course of decades, in PHP and JS. No JQuery, no React, none of that, but all those features - yes- hand rolled. Funny thing that nobody can learn it. "But I documented it thoroughly" "You don't understand: You can't google it. Documentation can't answer arbitrary questions, and you don't have the time to give a course" They and their employer are both too invested. And they're all making good money, but they can't grow their business as a result.
Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
honey the codewitch wrote:
And they're all making good money, but they can't grow their business as a result.
What it is more than expected, logical in that case.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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honey the codewitch wrote:
And they're all making good money, but they can't grow their business as a result.
What it is more than expected, logical in that case.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
They could bring on other people if they updated their tech stack to use modern, off the shelf tools. I don't think the person I'm talking about is willing to work that way though. NIH in the extreme. When I worked with them, I did discuss this with them, but didn't get very far. To my credit, they said I was the one dev that they found they'd be willing to work with again. But I can't do it, for my sanity. And I wasn't able to deliver at the rate that I usually can because I was constantly tripping over what I didn't know about their system. It's kind of unfortunate too. I actually went to high school with them, and they found out through the grapevine that I was in the field, so they contacted me through a mutual friend. I liked working with them, but I just couldn't be effective to the degree *I* was satisfied with using their tools.
Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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So, I've been applying to a couple of Tech Lead positions recently. I've been in Software development since 2008, and have worked with .NET since 2011. I went through several codebases throughout the years, and I have seen my fair share of atrocities done in codebases (including a critical software with 13 KLOC inside Program.cs). I believe that at least, nowadays, I know how NOT to screw things up. Recently, I had an interview with a big company in the restaurant management sector (with customers like Burger King and others in the same range). The interviewer asked me what I thought about the usage of Stored Procedures. I told them something along the lines of: "Well, they have their place. There might be situations worth considering their usage, but not always. E.g., Let's say you have a highly complex report that depends on several rounds of aggregations and calculations, and it is time critical, it might be worth considering the usage of Stored Procedures, instead of doing everything on the .NET codebase. Since the database has mechanisms to handle data better (indexes, query plans and whatnot) and it is closer to the data than the application, we could leverage these things to reduce the time needed to produce this specific report". Then, two days later, I got a rejection letter saying that my way of thinking was outdated, and that they do everything inside application code, so they would not move on with my application. So, my question is: Did I dodge a bullet, or did I in fact screw this up? How would you guys reply to this question if you were in my shoes?
I recently vented here regarding an issue of SPs vs. code-behind. You are correct, each has pros and cons and the choice depends on the situation. Calling SPs outdated is BS. You dodged a bullet.
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse "Hope is contagious"
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They could bring on other people if they updated their tech stack to use modern, off the shelf tools. I don't think the person I'm talking about is willing to work that way though. NIH in the extreme. When I worked with them, I did discuss this with them, but didn't get very far. To my credit, they said I was the one dev that they found they'd be willing to work with again. But I can't do it, for my sanity. And I wasn't able to deliver at the rate that I usually can because I was constantly tripping over what I didn't know about their system. It's kind of unfortunate too. I actually went to high school with them, and they found out through the grapevine that I was in the field, so they contacted me through a mutual friend. I liked working with them, but I just couldn't be effective to the degree *I* was satisfied with using their tools.
Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
honey the codewitch wrote:
I liked working with them, but I just couldn't be effective to the degree *I* was satisfied with using their tools.
And that's what matters most at the end of the day.
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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honey the codewitch wrote:
asked me to defend my lack of a BS degree.
That is entirely stupid line of interviewing. So, interviewer just wants to have an argument about, "Is it necessary to have a college degree?"
honey the codewitch wrote:
"I just whiteboarded all of your problems, because while you were struggling through English lit to round out your requirements, I was coding, so defend your degree first - after all I didn't pay 80k for mine"
:thumbsup: Of course there can be value in a college degree, but there is nothing that 100% proves you'll be a good dev anyways. Maybe they should make their litmus test: Have you read the entire The Art of Computer Programming by Knuth?
I would have gone to uni probably had my mental health and housing situation not been dreadfully unstable through my teens. When I landed at Microsoft at 18 it was a lifeline, so I never went to higher ed - i was too busy working. I'm going to make a confession - I have only read excerpts of Knuth. I find such material far too dry and math formalisms confound me. What I liked was the whiteboards. Those are what saved me. Implement an AVL tree on a whiteboard. Okay. Implement atoi. Okay That got me through my entry level years.
Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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So, I've been applying to a couple of Tech Lead positions recently. I've been in Software development since 2008, and have worked with .NET since 2011. I went through several codebases throughout the years, and I have seen my fair share of atrocities done in codebases (including a critical software with 13 KLOC inside Program.cs). I believe that at least, nowadays, I know how NOT to screw things up. Recently, I had an interview with a big company in the restaurant management sector (with customers like Burger King and others in the same range). The interviewer asked me what I thought about the usage of Stored Procedures. I told them something along the lines of: "Well, they have their place. There might be situations worth considering their usage, but not always. E.g., Let's say you have a highly complex report that depends on several rounds of aggregations and calculations, and it is time critical, it might be worth considering the usage of Stored Procedures, instead of doing everything on the .NET codebase. Since the database has mechanisms to handle data better (indexes, query plans and whatnot) and it is closer to the data than the application, we could leverage these things to reduce the time needed to produce this specific report". Then, two days later, I got a rejection letter saying that my way of thinking was outdated, and that they do everything inside application code, so they would not move on with my application. So, my question is: Did I dodge a bullet, or did I in fact screw this up? How would you guys reply to this question if you were in my shoes?
Cezar Lamann wrote:
How would you guys reply to this question if you were in my shoes?
I wouldn't. Not everything requires a reply; in fact, most things do not.
"One man's wage rise is another man's price increase." - Harold Wilson
"Fireproof doesn't mean the fire will never come. It means when the fire comes that you will be able to withstand it." - Michael Simmons
"You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him." - James D. Miles
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I would have gone to uni probably had my mental health and housing situation not been dreadfully unstable through my teens. When I landed at Microsoft at 18 it was a lifeline, so I never went to higher ed - i was too busy working. I'm going to make a confession - I have only read excerpts of Knuth. I find such material far too dry and math formalisms confound me. What I liked was the whiteboards. Those are what saved me. Implement an AVL tree on a whiteboard. Okay. Implement atoi. Okay That got me through my entry level years.
Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
I've been working in IT for >33 years now. For the past 20 years, each year I'll go out to O'Reilly.com account, pull up one of the volumes of The Art of Programming and read 2 or 3 paragraphs then bail out. Until the next year when I do it all again.
honey the codewitch wrote:
I'm going to make a confession - I have only read excerpts of Knuth.
Uh, yeah, me too. And, it's the same paragraph or two every year. :laugh:
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I had a mouth on me in my twenties. :laugh:
Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
absolutely full of piss and vinegar. I love it. May I ask, do you just contract, corp to corp etc?
Charlie Gilley “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759 Has never been more appropriate.
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I'm not sure what you/they mean when you wrote "they do everything inside the application code" The reporting? If so, good thing you moved on. Also, it's rare and kind of off putting for an interviewer to say something like "your way of thinking is outdated" It tells me you've got a primadonna infestation in that team. When I interviewed for Expedia, some interviewer asked me to defend my lack of a BS degree. It was at that point that I responded "I just whiteboarded all of your problems, because while you were struggling through English lit to round out your requirements, I was coding, so defend your degree first - after all I didn't pay 80k for mine" I didn't get the job I didn't want at that point anyway.
Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
honey the codewitch wrote:
some interviewer asked me to defend my lack of a BS degree.
I can spit out massive amounts of BS without any degree.
GCS/GE d--(d) s-/+ a C+++ U+++ P-- L+@ E-- W+++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X The shortest horror story: On Error Resume Next
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Yeah, you dodged a bullet. You even told them why it's better than doing it in-code. It seems they've forgotten why you don't do everything in-code. Their way seems to be a pile of security holes with performance issues. They may also be trying to save money on IT operations by skipping the DBA's required to write and maintain the databases and their SQL code. Congratulations, Neo.
Asking questions is a skill CodeProject Forum Guidelines Google: C# How to debug code Seriously, go read these articles. Dave Kreskowiak
Dave Kreskowiak wrote:
Their way seems to be a pile of security holes with performance issues.
I'm going to print this on a poster. This sentence is poetry.
GCS/GE d--(d) s-/+ a C+++ U+++ P-- L+@ E-- W+++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X The shortest horror story: On Error Resume Next
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I got your point. And the infamous "It depends" is what I really wanted to say (maybe I should have started my answer with this instead of "Well, sprocs have their place". I wouldn't blindly rule out a sproc, without knowing what is in front of me and what I should do, functionality-wise (like your last sentence - "all of this is invalidated if we're talking about distributed computing. This may also be invalidated if we're working with complex graphs in GraphQL"). Of course, I would NOT do, in this day and age, just use the .NET code as a shim for exposing sprocs and have the whole business logic in the DB (yes, I worked in an ASP Classic project, that was like this, and I hated every single second I worked on that project). I have also done my fair share of data warehousing and CQRS, and I understand that for OLAP workloads, a separate DB with denormalized tables/materialized views (e.g. "star schemas") can do wonders. Heck, I even ask this kind of question when I'm on the interviewer side (e.g. for senior dev positions), to filter out the ones that are 100% on Sproc side or 100% on code-only side. In other words, I knew how to answer this. But to get a rejection based on this (maybe other non-disclosed things as you mentioned), has bummed me out.
Cezar Lamann wrote:
I wouldn't blindly rule out a sproc
I wouldn't blindly rule out any technical solution without context and evaluation.
GCS/GE d--(d) s-/+ a C+++ U+++ P-- L+@ E-- W+++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X The shortest horror story: On Error Resume Next
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absolutely full of piss and vinegar. I love it. May I ask, do you just contract, corp to corp etc?
Charlie Gilley “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759 Has never been more appropriate.
I contract. nothing fancy.
Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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So, I've been applying to a couple of Tech Lead positions recently. I've been in Software development since 2008, and have worked with .NET since 2011. I went through several codebases throughout the years, and I have seen my fair share of atrocities done in codebases (including a critical software with 13 KLOC inside Program.cs). I believe that at least, nowadays, I know how NOT to screw things up. Recently, I had an interview with a big company in the restaurant management sector (with customers like Burger King and others in the same range). The interviewer asked me what I thought about the usage of Stored Procedures. I told them something along the lines of: "Well, they have their place. There might be situations worth considering their usage, but not always. E.g., Let's say you have a highly complex report that depends on several rounds of aggregations and calculations, and it is time critical, it might be worth considering the usage of Stored Procedures, instead of doing everything on the .NET codebase. Since the database has mechanisms to handle data better (indexes, query plans and whatnot) and it is closer to the data than the application, we could leverage these things to reduce the time needed to produce this specific report". Then, two days later, I got a rejection letter saying that my way of thinking was outdated, and that they do everything inside application code, so they would not move on with my application. So, my question is: Did I dodge a bullet, or did I in fact screw this up? How would you guys reply to this question if you were in my shoes?
Cezar Lamann wrote:
and that they do everything inside application code,
I code to the business and not to odd-ball extremes that some person with no objective data came up with. Using stored procedures can be much more effective that at some tasks then attempting to do it in code. I have seen systems that attempted to do the work only in the application and their performance was orders of magnitude larger than it could have been. I have also seen cases where because there was no clean separation of data access (because after all it should be right were it is needed right?) that a conversion to a different database took years (actual years) to do. And that conversion was driven by real business needs and not just because the newest CTO decided they wanted something different.