Who is Responsible?
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- Sadam Hussein (most likely) 2) Ousama Ben Ladin (somewhat likely) 3) Palestine (not likely) Why I picked Sadam - Ben Ladin nor Afganistan own jumbo jets, and the likelihood that they could get someone trained in flight deck ops on a 737 or 767 are extremely unlikely. However, Iraq owns several of these planes, and could easily train an already knowledgeable fighter pilot to handle one. Also, given that the operation was carried off with almost military precision, the pointer leans WAY over in Iraq's favor. Add to this Iraq's statement concerning the US and the "lesson we learned" just adds fuel to the fire. I do not want the person responsible for this to get anywhere near a court room. Read into that what you will.
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- Sadam Hussein (most likely) 2) Ousama Ben Ladin (somewhat likely) 3) Palestine (not likely) Why I picked Sadam - Ben Ladin nor Afganistan own jumbo jets, and the likelihood that they could get someone trained in flight deck ops on a 737 or 767 are extremely unlikely. However, Iraq owns several of these planes, and could easily train an already knowledgeable fighter pilot to handle one. Also, given that the operation was carried off with almost military precision, the pointer leans WAY over in Iraq's favor. Add to this Iraq's statement concerning the US and the "lesson we learned" just adds fuel to the fire. I do not want the person responsible for this to get anywhere near a court room. Read into that what you will.
I like the logic you have used to determine who would have the capability to handle one of these planes. One of the mouths here where I work, believes it is as easy as punching latitude and longitude into the flight computer (once it is in the air) and the plane will fly itself to where ever you want, even into a building. Don't believe it myself. Saddam should have received the final shaft back in 1991 (1990?), maybe he will get it now. Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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- Sadam Hussein (most likely) 2) Ousama Ben Ladin (somewhat likely) 3) Palestine (not likely) Why I picked Sadam - Ben Ladin nor Afganistan own jumbo jets, and the likelihood that they could get someone trained in flight deck ops on a 737 or 767 are extremely unlikely. However, Iraq owns several of these planes, and could easily train an already knowledgeable fighter pilot to handle one. Also, given that the operation was carried off with almost military precision, the pointer leans WAY over in Iraq's favor. Add to this Iraq's statement concerning the US and the "lesson we learned" just adds fuel to the fire. I do not want the person responsible for this to get anywhere near a court room. Read into that what you will.
Great to see some logical thinking, maybe it will inspire me a bit :) Both the 737/767 and military precision logic seems good. Only point I would add is that it does not require that the hijacker be proficient in either of those planes to actually fly one. Once in the air, and this was coroborated by some or other pilot speaking on CNN, and near the targets (flown there by a real pilot with a gun to his head) it is pretty easy to direct the plane in it's final path. Also as a lot of people have pointed out that second plane seemed to at the last minute try and avoid the second tower. It seems as though the hijacker was forcing the pilot and at the last moment the pilot did a very brave and correct thing in trying to miss the tower and head for the river. Not sure how true this but a friend in Oregon told me (here go the rumours) that one of Ben Ladin's cohorts in the embassy bombings last year was to be tried in court tomorrow, in NYC. If this is true then that is quite a nice additional motive for Ben Ladin. I am no great buff on Bin Ladin or Saddam but what is the chances of them co-operating in a manner like this? Is that at all possible? regards, Paul Watson Cape Town, South Africa e: paulmwatson@email.com w: vergen.org
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- Sadam Hussein (most likely) 2) Ousama Ben Ladin (somewhat likely) 3) Palestine (not likely) Why I picked Sadam - Ben Ladin nor Afganistan own jumbo jets, and the likelihood that they could get someone trained in flight deck ops on a 737 or 767 are extremely unlikely. However, Iraq owns several of these planes, and could easily train an already knowledgeable fighter pilot to handle one. Also, given that the operation was carried off with almost military precision, the pointer leans WAY over in Iraq's favor. Add to this Iraq's statement concerning the US and the "lesson we learned" just adds fuel to the fire. I do not want the person responsible for this to get anywhere near a court room. Read into that what you will.
According to FCA (is that spelt right?) the terrorists would only need to steer the planes, which any untrained individual can do. Sources believe that the commercial pilots flew the places till they were near their 'destinations' at which point the terrorists took over. You just need to watch that incredible footage of the passenger jet steering to collide with the south tower to realise that the terrorists were merely steering the thing. At least it looks like that to me anyway. Plus I’ve heard from the various (so far unconfirmed sources) that the plane downed in sparsely populated Pennsylvania was deliberately crashed by the pilot when he realised the terrorists were going to crash the plane in Camp David. Of course, I have no idea if that is true, as the news reports seem to skip the Pennsylvanian crash. David Wulff dwulff@battleaxesoftware.com
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Great to see some logical thinking, maybe it will inspire me a bit :) Both the 737/767 and military precision logic seems good. Only point I would add is that it does not require that the hijacker be proficient in either of those planes to actually fly one. Once in the air, and this was coroborated by some or other pilot speaking on CNN, and near the targets (flown there by a real pilot with a gun to his head) it is pretty easy to direct the plane in it's final path. Also as a lot of people have pointed out that second plane seemed to at the last minute try and avoid the second tower. It seems as though the hijacker was forcing the pilot and at the last moment the pilot did a very brave and correct thing in trying to miss the tower and head for the river. Not sure how true this but a friend in Oregon told me (here go the rumours) that one of Ben Ladin's cohorts in the embassy bombings last year was to be tried in court tomorrow, in NYC. If this is true then that is quite a nice additional motive for Ben Ladin. I am no great buff on Bin Ladin or Saddam but what is the chances of them co-operating in a manner like this? Is that at all possible? regards, Paul Watson Cape Town, South Africa e: paulmwatson@email.com w: vergen.org
Paul if the pilot made the decision at the last moment to avoid the tower why didn't he take this approach in the first place. I mean a terrorist (or wacko) with balls enough to take over a plane and demand it be flown to a destination and crashed isn't planning for himself or others to walk away from the situation. I have never been in a situation like this so my thoughts are hypothetical but if you and your passengers are going to die, crash in the middle of nowhere so no other lives are taken and the terrorist doesn't get his final goal. (Is this what happened in Pennsylvania?) If it turns out that the pilots were killed and the terrorists flew and crashed the planes then my thoughts are redundant. If not then I don't know what the pilots were thinking, there is no win-win situation to be had when in mid-air and a crazy bastard next to you in the cockpit. Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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Great to see some logical thinking, maybe it will inspire me a bit :) Both the 737/767 and military precision logic seems good. Only point I would add is that it does not require that the hijacker be proficient in either of those planes to actually fly one. Once in the air, and this was coroborated by some or other pilot speaking on CNN, and near the targets (flown there by a real pilot with a gun to his head) it is pretty easy to direct the plane in it's final path. Also as a lot of people have pointed out that second plane seemed to at the last minute try and avoid the second tower. It seems as though the hijacker was forcing the pilot and at the last moment the pilot did a very brave and correct thing in trying to miss the tower and head for the river. Not sure how true this but a friend in Oregon told me (here go the rumours) that one of Ben Ladin's cohorts in the embassy bombings last year was to be tried in court tomorrow, in NYC. If this is true then that is quite a nice additional motive for Ben Ladin. I am no great buff on Bin Ladin or Saddam but what is the chances of them co-operating in a manner like this? Is that at all possible? regards, Paul Watson Cape Town, South Africa e: paulmwatson@email.com w: vergen.org
Israel Air force pilot said the following: 1."American pilot won't crash the plain into a building no matter how many guns were pointed to his head" 2."The plain didn't try to avoid the building rather it fix the angle in order to maximize the damage" Tomer Dror Israel
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Israel Air force pilot said the following: 1."American pilot won't crash the plain into a building no matter how many guns were pointed to his head" 2."The plain didn't try to avoid the building rather it fix the angle in order to maximize the damage" Tomer Dror Israel
Yeah, personally, I find the "an American pilot did most of the flying" philosophy hard to believe. As has been said, if you're going to die one way or the other, you might as well take the option that results in the least death and destruction. If the terrorists were unable to fly the planes, then the pilots might have been able to crash into a different, less populated area; if the terrorists could fly the planes, then the point is moot.
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I like the logic you have used to determine who would have the capability to handle one of these planes. One of the mouths here where I work, believes it is as easy as punching latitude and longitude into the flight computer (once it is in the air) and the plane will fly itself to where ever you want, even into a building. Don't believe it myself. Saddam should have received the final shaft back in 1991 (1990?), maybe he will get it now. Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
Saddam should have received the final shaft back in 1991 (1990?), maybe he will get it now. The thing is, who do you replace him with ? That's why the US didn't kill him last time, because there is no viable alternative. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Saddam should have received the final shaft back in 1991 (1990?), maybe he will get it now. The thing is, who do you replace him with ? That's why the US didn't kill him last time, because there is no viable alternative. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
I'm available if the price is right. Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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- Sadam Hussein (most likely) 2) Ousama Ben Ladin (somewhat likely) 3) Palestine (not likely) Why I picked Sadam - Ben Ladin nor Afganistan own jumbo jets, and the likelihood that they could get someone trained in flight deck ops on a 737 or 767 are extremely unlikely. However, Iraq owns several of these planes, and could easily train an already knowledgeable fighter pilot to handle one. Also, given that the operation was carried off with almost military precision, the pointer leans WAY over in Iraq's favor. Add to this Iraq's statement concerning the US and the "lesson we learned" just adds fuel to the fire. I do not want the person responsible for this to get anywhere near a court room. Read into that what you will.
John, You ommitted the Japanese Red Army The rest of your logic stacks up. Regardz Colin Davies
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I'm available if the price is right. Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
Goodness me, I'm not. Surrounded by cronies who want to kill you and take your place, head of a country full of raving lunatics, no perving because all women walk around covered in a bed sheet. Not my idea of fun. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Goodness me, I'm not. Surrounded by cronies who want to kill you and take your place, head of a country full of raving lunatics, no perving because all women walk around covered in a bed sheet. Not my idea of fun. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
True, but I have my secret weapon against them all ..... Vegemite, they won't know what hit them. Also as supreme leader there must be some advantages like sex with who ever he pleases even if it is against his religion/beliefs. Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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- Sadam Hussein (most likely) 2) Ousama Ben Ladin (somewhat likely) 3) Palestine (not likely) Why I picked Sadam - Ben Ladin nor Afganistan own jumbo jets, and the likelihood that they could get someone trained in flight deck ops on a 737 or 767 are extremely unlikely. However, Iraq owns several of these planes, and could easily train an already knowledgeable fighter pilot to handle one. Also, given that the operation was carried off with almost military precision, the pointer leans WAY over in Iraq's favor. Add to this Iraq's statement concerning the US and the "lesson we learned" just adds fuel to the fire. I do not want the person responsible for this to get anywhere near a court room. Read into that what you will.
Logical, but the news is saying that Ben Ladin is known to have had passenger jet trained pilots in his organization. Also, communications to his headquarters increased dramatically as the attack took place. I think Ben Ladin looks like the culprit at this point.
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Yeah, personally, I find the "an American pilot did most of the flying" philosophy hard to believe. As has been said, if you're going to die one way or the other, you might as well take the option that results in the least death and destruction. If the terrorists were unable to fly the planes, then the pilots might have been able to crash into a different, less populated area; if the terrorists could fly the planes, then the point is moot.
It appears that is what happened on the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania. David Wulff dwulff@battleaxesoftware.com
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True, but I have my secret weapon against them all ..... Vegemite, they won't know what hit them. Also as supreme leader there must be some advantages like sex with who ever he pleases even if it is against his religion/beliefs. Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
Well, Vegemite is indeed toxic stuff..... Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Logical, but the news is saying that Ben Ladin is known to have had passenger jet trained pilots in his organization. Also, communications to his headquarters increased dramatically as the attack took place. I think Ben Ladin looks like the culprit at this point.
Whether Ben Ladin is responsible or not, Ladin and his organization should "disappear" just by guilt by association Or the world will be stepping in his bloody messes for years to come PAUL CURRY
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Well, Vegemite is indeed toxic stuff..... Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
The reason SH was not killed during the gulf war was simple. His sons would take over and they are complete nutters. Son 1 - Shot dead a senior army officer because he wanted the officer's sports car. Son 2 - Shot dead a senior army officer because he wanted the officer's wife for sex. During the gulf war my father met a man who had worked as a 'bodyguard' for these two sons, he said the only thing he regrets in life is not having killed them both when he had the chance. If your own bodyguard wants you dead....... Adrian
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- Sadam Hussein (most likely) 2) Ousama Ben Ladin (somewhat likely) 3) Palestine (not likely) Why I picked Sadam - Ben Ladin nor Afganistan own jumbo jets, and the likelihood that they could get someone trained in flight deck ops on a 737 or 767 are extremely unlikely. However, Iraq owns several of these planes, and could easily train an already knowledgeable fighter pilot to handle one. Also, given that the operation was carried off with almost military precision, the pointer leans WAY over in Iraq's favor. Add to this Iraq's statement concerning the US and the "lesson we learned" just adds fuel to the fire. I do not want the person responsible for this to get anywhere near a court room. Read into that what you will.
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Paul if the pilot made the decision at the last moment to avoid the tower why didn't he take this approach in the first place. I mean a terrorist (or wacko) with balls enough to take over a plane and demand it be flown to a destination and crashed isn't planning for himself or others to walk away from the situation. I have never been in a situation like this so my thoughts are hypothetical but if you and your passengers are going to die, crash in the middle of nowhere so no other lives are taken and the terrorist doesn't get his final goal. (Is this what happened in Pennsylvania?) If it turns out that the pilots were killed and the terrorists flew and crashed the planes then my thoughts are redundant. If not then I don't know what the pilots were thinking, there is no win-win situation to be had when in mid-air and a crazy bastard next to you in the cockpit. Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
Honestly I do not think anyone, from the bravest Navy SEAL to the average man, can really say what they would do in a situation like that without actually having been through it (if anyone here ever has had a gun put to their head and forced to drive/fly then speak up.) We all say "I would have been brave and just pushed the plane straight into the ground the moment I realised what they were going to do", but be realistic. Our fight to survive is an incredible force and in a situation like that most people would be thinking "don't shoot me, don't shoot me". The adrenalim would be coursing through your body, your blood throbbing in your head. You have to train (or have a lot of experience) to stay calm and rational in a situation like that. Be honest with yourself. However a likely alternative with the second plane is that the pilot was incredibly brave and also incredibly rational and calm in his thinking. As you said this is all hypothetical but then we have brains so that we can extrapolate these kinds of events. That second pilot may have thought "if I try and ditch way before the WTC, the terrorist will shoot, I will die, he will recover the plane and crash it anyway." What instead he may have done was to have thought "get close, get to just before the point of no return. The terrorist will be patting himself on the back at this point, then at the last dying second veer from that building and head for the ground. There probably won't be enough time to recover." Unfortuantley the plan did not work, but if even a shred of this is true then that is one honourable, brave and incredible pilot. Overall though the hypothesis that the terrorist got the pilots to fly within viewing distance of the WTC and then took over is probably more likely. Hopefully we will know more once the FAA reveals the in-flight communications and also find the black boxes which may have further information. regards, Paul Watson Cape Town, South Africa e: paulmwatson@email.com w: vergen.org
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- Sadam Hussein (most likely) 2) Ousama Ben Ladin (somewhat likely) 3) Palestine (not likely) Why I picked Sadam - Ben Ladin nor Afganistan own jumbo jets, and the likelihood that they could get someone trained in flight deck ops on a 737 or 767 are extremely unlikely. However, Iraq owns several of these planes, and could easily train an already knowledgeable fighter pilot to handle one. Also, given that the operation was carried off with almost military precision, the pointer leans WAY over in Iraq's favor. Add to this Iraq's statement concerning the US and the "lesson we learned" just adds fuel to the fire. I do not want the person responsible for this to get anywhere near a court room. Read into that what you will.
If you accept that the people behind this do not have the same concept of respect for human life , especially civilian life , that most people do then the list of possible groups is long:- 1) Osama Bin Laden 2) Iraq 3) Libya 4) Palistinians. 5) Anti-capitolists 6) Nutters like Timothy McViegh. 7) Afgahnistan. 8) North Korea That America should use every means to respond to this is not in doubt , the problem is who and where .