Who is Responsible?
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I like the logic you have used to determine who would have the capability to handle one of these planes. One of the mouths here where I work, believes it is as easy as punching latitude and longitude into the flight computer (once it is in the air) and the plane will fly itself to where ever you want, even into a building. Don't believe it myself. Saddam should have received the final shaft back in 1991 (1990?), maybe he will get it now. Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
Saddam should have received the final shaft back in 1991 (1990?), maybe he will get it now. The thing is, who do you replace him with ? That's why the US didn't kill him last time, because there is no viable alternative. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Saddam should have received the final shaft back in 1991 (1990?), maybe he will get it now. The thing is, who do you replace him with ? That's why the US didn't kill him last time, because there is no viable alternative. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
I'm available if the price is right. Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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- Sadam Hussein (most likely) 2) Ousama Ben Ladin (somewhat likely) 3) Palestine (not likely) Why I picked Sadam - Ben Ladin nor Afganistan own jumbo jets, and the likelihood that they could get someone trained in flight deck ops on a 737 or 767 are extremely unlikely. However, Iraq owns several of these planes, and could easily train an already knowledgeable fighter pilot to handle one. Also, given that the operation was carried off with almost military precision, the pointer leans WAY over in Iraq's favor. Add to this Iraq's statement concerning the US and the "lesson we learned" just adds fuel to the fire. I do not want the person responsible for this to get anywhere near a court room. Read into that what you will.
John, You ommitted the Japanese Red Army The rest of your logic stacks up. Regardz Colin Davies
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I'm available if the price is right. Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
Goodness me, I'm not. Surrounded by cronies who want to kill you and take your place, head of a country full of raving lunatics, no perving because all women walk around covered in a bed sheet. Not my idea of fun. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Goodness me, I'm not. Surrounded by cronies who want to kill you and take your place, head of a country full of raving lunatics, no perving because all women walk around covered in a bed sheet. Not my idea of fun. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
True, but I have my secret weapon against them all ..... Vegemite, they won't know what hit them. Also as supreme leader there must be some advantages like sex with who ever he pleases even if it is against his religion/beliefs. Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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- Sadam Hussein (most likely) 2) Ousama Ben Ladin (somewhat likely) 3) Palestine (not likely) Why I picked Sadam - Ben Ladin nor Afganistan own jumbo jets, and the likelihood that they could get someone trained in flight deck ops on a 737 or 767 are extremely unlikely. However, Iraq owns several of these planes, and could easily train an already knowledgeable fighter pilot to handle one. Also, given that the operation was carried off with almost military precision, the pointer leans WAY over in Iraq's favor. Add to this Iraq's statement concerning the US and the "lesson we learned" just adds fuel to the fire. I do not want the person responsible for this to get anywhere near a court room. Read into that what you will.
Logical, but the news is saying that Ben Ladin is known to have had passenger jet trained pilots in his organization. Also, communications to his headquarters increased dramatically as the attack took place. I think Ben Ladin looks like the culprit at this point.
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Yeah, personally, I find the "an American pilot did most of the flying" philosophy hard to believe. As has been said, if you're going to die one way or the other, you might as well take the option that results in the least death and destruction. If the terrorists were unable to fly the planes, then the pilots might have been able to crash into a different, less populated area; if the terrorists could fly the planes, then the point is moot.
It appears that is what happened on the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania. David Wulff dwulff@battleaxesoftware.com
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True, but I have my secret weapon against them all ..... Vegemite, they won't know what hit them. Also as supreme leader there must be some advantages like sex with who ever he pleases even if it is against his religion/beliefs. Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
Well, Vegemite is indeed toxic stuff..... Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Logical, but the news is saying that Ben Ladin is known to have had passenger jet trained pilots in his organization. Also, communications to his headquarters increased dramatically as the attack took place. I think Ben Ladin looks like the culprit at this point.
Whether Ben Ladin is responsible or not, Ladin and his organization should "disappear" just by guilt by association Or the world will be stepping in his bloody messes for years to come PAUL CURRY
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Well, Vegemite is indeed toxic stuff..... Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
The reason SH was not killed during the gulf war was simple. His sons would take over and they are complete nutters. Son 1 - Shot dead a senior army officer because he wanted the officer's sports car. Son 2 - Shot dead a senior army officer because he wanted the officer's wife for sex. During the gulf war my father met a man who had worked as a 'bodyguard' for these two sons, he said the only thing he regrets in life is not having killed them both when he had the chance. If your own bodyguard wants you dead....... Adrian
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- Sadam Hussein (most likely) 2) Ousama Ben Ladin (somewhat likely) 3) Palestine (not likely) Why I picked Sadam - Ben Ladin nor Afganistan own jumbo jets, and the likelihood that they could get someone trained in flight deck ops on a 737 or 767 are extremely unlikely. However, Iraq owns several of these planes, and could easily train an already knowledgeable fighter pilot to handle one. Also, given that the operation was carried off with almost military precision, the pointer leans WAY over in Iraq's favor. Add to this Iraq's statement concerning the US and the "lesson we learned" just adds fuel to the fire. I do not want the person responsible for this to get anywhere near a court room. Read into that what you will.
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Paul if the pilot made the decision at the last moment to avoid the tower why didn't he take this approach in the first place. I mean a terrorist (or wacko) with balls enough to take over a plane and demand it be flown to a destination and crashed isn't planning for himself or others to walk away from the situation. I have never been in a situation like this so my thoughts are hypothetical but if you and your passengers are going to die, crash in the middle of nowhere so no other lives are taken and the terrorist doesn't get his final goal. (Is this what happened in Pennsylvania?) If it turns out that the pilots were killed and the terrorists flew and crashed the planes then my thoughts are redundant. If not then I don't know what the pilots were thinking, there is no win-win situation to be had when in mid-air and a crazy bastard next to you in the cockpit. Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
Honestly I do not think anyone, from the bravest Navy SEAL to the average man, can really say what they would do in a situation like that without actually having been through it (if anyone here ever has had a gun put to their head and forced to drive/fly then speak up.) We all say "I would have been brave and just pushed the plane straight into the ground the moment I realised what they were going to do", but be realistic. Our fight to survive is an incredible force and in a situation like that most people would be thinking "don't shoot me, don't shoot me". The adrenalim would be coursing through your body, your blood throbbing in your head. You have to train (or have a lot of experience) to stay calm and rational in a situation like that. Be honest with yourself. However a likely alternative with the second plane is that the pilot was incredibly brave and also incredibly rational and calm in his thinking. As you said this is all hypothetical but then we have brains so that we can extrapolate these kinds of events. That second pilot may have thought "if I try and ditch way before the WTC, the terrorist will shoot, I will die, he will recover the plane and crash it anyway." What instead he may have done was to have thought "get close, get to just before the point of no return. The terrorist will be patting himself on the back at this point, then at the last dying second veer from that building and head for the ground. There probably won't be enough time to recover." Unfortuantley the plan did not work, but if even a shred of this is true then that is one honourable, brave and incredible pilot. Overall though the hypothesis that the terrorist got the pilots to fly within viewing distance of the WTC and then took over is probably more likely. Hopefully we will know more once the FAA reveals the in-flight communications and also find the black boxes which may have further information. regards, Paul Watson Cape Town, South Africa e: paulmwatson@email.com w: vergen.org
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- Sadam Hussein (most likely) 2) Ousama Ben Ladin (somewhat likely) 3) Palestine (not likely) Why I picked Sadam - Ben Ladin nor Afganistan own jumbo jets, and the likelihood that they could get someone trained in flight deck ops on a 737 or 767 are extremely unlikely. However, Iraq owns several of these planes, and could easily train an already knowledgeable fighter pilot to handle one. Also, given that the operation was carried off with almost military precision, the pointer leans WAY over in Iraq's favor. Add to this Iraq's statement concerning the US and the "lesson we learned" just adds fuel to the fire. I do not want the person responsible for this to get anywhere near a court room. Read into that what you will.
If you accept that the people behind this do not have the same concept of respect for human life , especially civilian life , that most people do then the list of possible groups is long:- 1) Osama Bin Laden 2) Iraq 3) Libya 4) Palistinians. 5) Anti-capitolists 6) Nutters like Timothy McViegh. 7) Afgahnistan. 8) North Korea That America should use every means to respond to this is not in doubt , the problem is who and where .
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True, but I have my secret weapon against them all ..... Vegemite, they won't know what hit them. Also as supreme leader there must be some advantages like sex with who ever he pleases even if it is against his religion/beliefs. Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
What on god's green earth is Vegemite? I take it, from the tone of the post, that it is in fact not some super weapon but nonetheless equally horrid? ..."Also as supreme leader there must be some advantages like sex with who ever he pleases even if it is against his religion/beliefs"... You get to declare any day whatever you like e.g. "Vegemite day!". Also you get to popularise a silly salute, such as seen in Third Rock From The Sun. ..."like sex with who ever he pleases"... I hear the higher the position (political, not sexual) the errr inversely proportional the size of ones "manhood". Same with BMW drivers ;P regards, Paul Watson Cape Town, South Africa e: paulmwatson@email.com w: vergen.org
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What on god's green earth is Vegemite? I take it, from the tone of the post, that it is in fact not some super weapon but nonetheless equally horrid? ..."Also as supreme leader there must be some advantages like sex with who ever he pleases even if it is against his religion/beliefs"... You get to declare any day whatever you like e.g. "Vegemite day!". Also you get to popularise a silly salute, such as seen in Third Rock From The Sun. ..."like sex with who ever he pleases"... I hear the higher the position (political, not sexual) the errr inversely proportional the size of ones "manhood". Same with BMW drivers ;P regards, Paul Watson Cape Town, South Africa e: paulmwatson@email.com w: vergen.org
Vegemite is the Gift of the Gods. Here in Australia it is an institution, especially on toast for breakfast. It is something that you either eat cause you love it since you have eaten it since birth, eat because you have spent the time becoming accustomed to it or hate it like Christian does. As brilliant as it is, if you find out what it is made from you would probably be physically ill. Back in 1922 an entrepreneur bought all the leftover organic material from the beer making process from Carlton United Brewers (think Fosters). He then commisioned a chemist to turn it into something useful. The result is Vegemite the greatest edible sludge in the known universe and also high in Iron and B vitamins. Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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Honestly I do not think anyone, from the bravest Navy SEAL to the average man, can really say what they would do in a situation like that without actually having been through it (if anyone here ever has had a gun put to their head and forced to drive/fly then speak up.) We all say "I would have been brave and just pushed the plane straight into the ground the moment I realised what they were going to do", but be realistic. Our fight to survive is an incredible force and in a situation like that most people would be thinking "don't shoot me, don't shoot me". The adrenalim would be coursing through your body, your blood throbbing in your head. You have to train (or have a lot of experience) to stay calm and rational in a situation like that. Be honest with yourself. However a likely alternative with the second plane is that the pilot was incredibly brave and also incredibly rational and calm in his thinking. As you said this is all hypothetical but then we have brains so that we can extrapolate these kinds of events. That second pilot may have thought "if I try and ditch way before the WTC, the terrorist will shoot, I will die, he will recover the plane and crash it anyway." What instead he may have done was to have thought "get close, get to just before the point of no return. The terrorist will be patting himself on the back at this point, then at the last dying second veer from that building and head for the ground. There probably won't be enough time to recover." Unfortuantley the plan did not work, but if even a shred of this is true then that is one honourable, brave and incredible pilot. Overall though the hypothesis that the terrorist got the pilots to fly within viewing distance of the WTC and then took over is probably more likely. Hopefully we will know more once the FAA reveals the in-flight communications and also find the black boxes which may have further information. regards, Paul Watson Cape Town, South Africa e: paulmwatson@email.com w: vergen.org
The pilot could have stalled the engines, the terrorist would not be able to get it going at all let alone in time to take control of the plane. Or put it in a dive that the plane couldn't pull out of. Both of these and many others I suppose could have been used by the pilot, especially if he did finaly try to do what you have hypothesised. I believe that the terrorists were capable of flying the planes themselves and had killed or overpowered the pilots before flying them into the buildings. The pilot that crashed into the ground in Pennsyvania delibrately crashed to stop the terrorist from having the power to kill fellow Americans. Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone
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Someone I work with, who owns a single-engine airplane and has been flying for 20-odd years, said the same thing. When the news reporters were talking about how well trained the terrorists must have been at piloting, this guy said that's a bunch bull. Taking off and landing are the two hardest parts of flying. Once the plane is in the air, steering it is fairly simple. His comment was along the lines of: A few hours with MS Flight Sim would be enough to train them how to steer a large plane. They're not going to be too worried about steering too roughly, because they were planning to crash it anyway. How true... Anyone who has ever played a flight sim knows that steering to visible points is not very difficult. -- Paul "I drank... WHAT?"
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Honestly I do not think anyone, from the bravest Navy SEAL to the average man, can really say what they would do in a situation like that without actually having been through it (if anyone here ever has had a gun put to their head and forced to drive/fly then speak up.) We all say "I would have been brave and just pushed the plane straight into the ground the moment I realised what they were going to do", but be realistic. Our fight to survive is an incredible force and in a situation like that most people would be thinking "don't shoot me, don't shoot me". The adrenalim would be coursing through your body, your blood throbbing in your head. You have to train (or have a lot of experience) to stay calm and rational in a situation like that. Be honest with yourself. However a likely alternative with the second plane is that the pilot was incredibly brave and also incredibly rational and calm in his thinking. As you said this is all hypothetical but then we have brains so that we can extrapolate these kinds of events. That second pilot may have thought "if I try and ditch way before the WTC, the terrorist will shoot, I will die, he will recover the plane and crash it anyway." What instead he may have done was to have thought "get close, get to just before the point of no return. The terrorist will be patting himself on the back at this point, then at the last dying second veer from that building and head for the ground. There probably won't be enough time to recover." Unfortuantley the plan did not work, but if even a shred of this is true then that is one honourable, brave and incredible pilot. Overall though the hypothesis that the terrorist got the pilots to fly within viewing distance of the WTC and then took over is probably more likely. Hopefully we will know more once the FAA reveals the in-flight communications and also find the black boxes which may have further information. regards, Paul Watson Cape Town, South Africa e: paulmwatson@email.com w: vergen.org
Interesting thoughts. I wonder though... If the pilot was smart enough to think to get close to the buildings and trick the terrorist, wouldn't he also have been smart enough to know that there were a lot of other buildings in the area. If he got that close, what could he have crashed into that wasn't a building full of people? It will be interesting to see what information the investigations turn up on this issue. (Huh.. Did you notice that all of the nouns in that sentence start with the letter 'i'? *thinks that's weird*) John