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As you have pointed out - it this ability to enforce US choice on others which causes resentment. Nobody resents the US's wealth, power. Infact every country wants to emulate it. US should be seen & behave as an unbiased moderator.But this is not the case.
Maybe we should take this to the unmoderated area so I can explain myself more clearly, but I did *not* say that. What is resented is the USA's lifestyle, not their standard of living or their military might. People in the USA are free to do things for which you get killed in these places, and I'm not talking about anything that remotely counts as a crime. Yes, it is also the US military presence that is causing problems, but the issue is not jealousy, it is hate of a way of life they do not WANT to emulate. The USA on the other hand, cannot just sit by and let these people behave the way they do and pretend they won't be a threat to US security until they actually land there, now can they ? We have our own problems with neighbours who are less than friendly to us, and I sometimes wish our government would act as decisively as the US government does. It's always easy to point sticks at the big guy - because the US is so active overseas, they must not be impartial. Well, of course they aren't, not completely. But I don't think that means they are hell bent on conquest either, if they were then the countries these people are coming out of would be smoking piles of rubble. The fact this is not the case is proof that the US is careful in the way it conducts itself, balancing it's own interests with allowances for the freedom of the very people who threaten it's ongoing safety. I suspect we'll see a shift in that balance in the coming months. The US will act more in its own interest and in the interest of stopping these sort of acts. Collateral damage will be unavoidable and again the US will be viewed as the bad guy once the horrific events of the last few days have become history instead of recent tragedy. I hope I am wrong, but I doubt it. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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I don't believe it's a perception that the US *has* more, but rather that it's way of life is emnity to their religion. Saddam Hussein released a statement that said the US exports evil in it's army and in it's movies, as if they were fulfilling the same function. It's true that, for example, the US is harming the cause of environmentalism under Bush, but I don't think overall that the US is tardy in sharing it's wealth, nor is this the problem. The basic problem as I percieve it is that the US has had the courage to try and enforce peace in a war torn part of the world. I don't deny that they have had half an eye on their own interests, but this is beside the point. This bin laden schmuck basically declared war with the US over continued occupation in Saudi Arabia. I hope that the US responds with a hardened resolve and with action to punish the guilty, but I also worry about innocent people being blamed - here in Hobart the Muslim community is reporting threats to it, how does this make us any different to Nazis ? ( I'm talking about Hobartians here ). There are a number of Middle Eastern leaders who are avoiding responsibility but suggesting that they are glad this happened. I'd say that this is their strategy - the US can't attack who they cannot see, yet they are delivered the terrorists demands from people claiming not to have done the act. Watching a TV show discussing US options and how hard they will be to pursue, I was left wandering if they have any nukes left. One smack in the middle of Afghanistan should do it, and a second for Iraq just to be sure. The news said that Iraq is still at war with the US, is this true ? If so, then what's the hold up ? Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
Chris, You see the U.S. showing courage by aiding the cause of peace in war torn parts of the world. I understand why your see things this way, but alot of peoples don't share your views, even some of your long standing friends in Europe have condemned U.S. action is recent history, to no avail. Islam is not be be feared. The Quoran adovactes similar values to most other faiths, Human Truth is universal. Islamic countries stick together, Islamic countries are poor and that is about as far as Islam is envolved. When you talk of nukes and using military might to solve problems, you only serve to confirm peoples worst fears about the U.S. People outside the U.S. believe that the U.S. percieves itself not only as a Global Police Force, but also judge, jury and executionary. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
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Personally, I see great danger in the future. I believe this has the potential to spread into a global conflict with time. The forces of radical Muslim fundamentalists are widespread and intensely devoted. Israel, it seems to me, is taking advantage of the diversion of the world's attention to intensify the war against the Palestinian Authority. Sharon was quick to jump on the bandwagon and cast himself and his government in the role of comrade in arms against the evil of terrorism. (This is not to denigrate the injuries suffered by Israeli civilians in terror attacks there.)I feel that the US must balance a violent reprisal against the Taliban and the Bin Laden cells with a forceful directive to the Israelis that their pursuit of illegal settlements (condemned repeatedly by the UN) is a great force for destabilization, and if they want us to continue to ensure their survival they must stop stirring the root of the conflict - get the hell off the Dome of the Rock and out of East Jerusalem. At the same time, I agree with your analysis, Christian, about the prescence of American troops in Saudi Arabia. We also can be a great force for instability. This country has propped up a dictatorship clearly acting against the interests of their own people, and in light of the track record in that respect (Central America, the Phillipines, Iran, etc,etc,etc) we never seem to be able to rise above our own greedy interests. And now we are faced with an undeniable need to act. I agree with the majority that we must respond in a devastating manner, but I see no good coming from it in the long run. A bus with Muslim kids is stoned in Australia, mobs in Chicago menace a mosque. AP carried a quote from one pinhead in the mob - ' I'm proud to be an American, and I've always hated Arabs.' The root of the problem is unchanged in the Middle East, no matter what we do in Afghanistan. Dave R
I too fear that this will not quickly, but over 6 months or a year, escalate into a World conflict. I am also fearful that countries will take advantage of the situation to fulfill their own agendas (China with Taiwan for example). I see no alternative however. State sponsored terrorism, which I personally believe this was, cannot be permitted, and I think the approach of holding the countries that harbor these criminals accountable to the absolutely highest degree is the only possible course of action. I am very disheartened that I live in a Country (Canada) where some, and thankfully an exceedingly small number, feel justified in discrimination against Muslims. While I think it is clear that Muslim fundamentalists pose the current danger, terrorists come from every religion, race and country. Timothy McVeigh was certainly not a Muslim, but a terrorist to be sure. My heart goes out to those Muslims who are victims of this discrimination. I, for one, will completely back my government, and the government of the United States in taking whatever action is deemed necessary to change the fundamental face of this threat, and if that means picking up a rifle and heading off to Afghanistan, so be it. David
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Maybe we should take this to the unmoderated area so I can explain myself more clearly, but I did *not* say that. What is resented is the USA's lifestyle, not their standard of living or their military might. People in the USA are free to do things for which you get killed in these places, and I'm not talking about anything that remotely counts as a crime. Yes, it is also the US military presence that is causing problems, but the issue is not jealousy, it is hate of a way of life they do not WANT to emulate. The USA on the other hand, cannot just sit by and let these people behave the way they do and pretend they won't be a threat to US security until they actually land there, now can they ? We have our own problems with neighbours who are less than friendly to us, and I sometimes wish our government would act as decisively as the US government does. It's always easy to point sticks at the big guy - because the US is so active overseas, they must not be impartial. Well, of course they aren't, not completely. But I don't think that means they are hell bent on conquest either, if they were then the countries these people are coming out of would be smoking piles of rubble. The fact this is not the case is proof that the US is careful in the way it conducts itself, balancing it's own interests with allowances for the freedom of the very people who threaten it's ongoing safety. I suspect we'll see a shift in that balance in the coming months. The US will act more in its own interest and in the interest of stopping these sort of acts. Collateral damage will be unavoidable and again the US will be viewed as the bad guy once the horrific events of the last few days have become history instead of recent tragedy. I hope I am wrong, but I doubt it. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
Chris, I will not discuss , this nor any other issue on an unmoderated board. I feel that if cannot conducted themselves in a mature manner, it is not worth talking to them. People resent the U.S. because they feel that the U.S. imposes its style of peace and justice upon the world. You are correct when you say that over the next few months, the U.S. will seek justice for what has happened. I can understand this but it I cannot support it. We have a forum for discussing matters such as this and advocating responses its called the U.N. Nearliy every country in the world is represented at the U.N. and subscribes the U.N. ideal, it is acknowledged worldwide that it is the correct forum to consult when taking these type of steps. But the U.S. won't consult the U.N. it never does. Which is another reason people resent the U.S. People say we have a forumn which we support and all agree to discuss our grievances there, in an effort to prevent another World War. And the U.S. will ignore this and carry on regardless. I am not attacking the U.S. when I say this, for it is not the only country who ignores the counsel of the U.N., all I am saying is, that if every action was taken with U.N. support people would feel less resentment towards the U.S. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
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Chris, You see the U.S. showing courage by aiding the cause of peace in war torn parts of the world. I understand why your see things this way, but alot of peoples don't share your views, even some of your long standing friends in Europe have condemned U.S. action is recent history, to no avail. Islam is not be be feared. The Quoran adovactes similar values to most other faiths, Human Truth is universal. Islamic countries stick together, Islamic countries are poor and that is about as far as Islam is envolved. When you talk of nukes and using military might to solve problems, you only serve to confirm peoples worst fears about the U.S. People outside the U.S. believe that the U.S. percieves itself not only as a Global Police Force, but also judge, jury and executionary. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
1/ I don't see the US as a knight in shining armour, witness Vietnam and Korea. However, I do not believe it is the great satan either, or that it acts only in self interest. I also believe nothing can justify this weeks events or detract from the right of the US to act to protect it's citizens. 2/ We can argue religion, but it will probably get ugly. While it is true that most followers of Islam are not war hungry, the Quran itself promises eternal rewards to those who die killing their enemies. Bin Laden has declared holy war on the US - to him, right or wrong, it is a matter of religion. I would temper this by again stating my concern that all Muslims not be punished for actions they would also condemn. 3/ Please provide a list of times the US has killed innocent victums deliberately. I'll give you Nagasaki in advance. It's always easy to hate and be suspicious of the guy with the biggest stick, but I'll ask you one thing - would you prefer it be the US, or Iraq ? Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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Chris, I will not discuss , this nor any other issue on an unmoderated board. I feel that if cannot conducted themselves in a mature manner, it is not worth talking to them. People resent the U.S. because they feel that the U.S. imposes its style of peace and justice upon the world. You are correct when you say that over the next few months, the U.S. will seek justice for what has happened. I can understand this but it I cannot support it. We have a forum for discussing matters such as this and advocating responses its called the U.N. Nearliy every country in the world is represented at the U.N. and subscribes the U.N. ideal, it is acknowledged worldwide that it is the correct forum to consult when taking these type of steps. But the U.S. won't consult the U.N. it never does. Which is another reason people resent the U.S. People say we have a forumn which we support and all agree to discuss our grievances there, in an effort to prevent another World War. And the U.S. will ignore this and carry on regardless. I am not attacking the U.S. when I say this, for it is not the only country who ignores the counsel of the U.N., all I am saying is, that if every action was taken with U.N. support people would feel less resentment towards the U.S. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
I will not discuss , this nor any other issue on an unmoderated board. I feel that if cannot conducted themselves in a mature manner, it is not worth talking to them. That's fair, I'm just not yet sure where the line is. People resent the U.S. because they feel that the U.S. imposes its style of peace and justice upon the world. You are correct when you say that over the next few months, the U.S. will seek justice for what has happened. I can understand this but it I cannot support it. I don't see how anyone can refuse a country the right of self defence. We have a forum for discussing matters such as this and advocating responses its called the U.N. Nearliy every country in the world is represented at the U.N. and subscribes the U.N. ideal, it is acknowledged worldwide that it is the correct forum to consult when taking these type of steps. My newspaper says the UN supports the US in seeking to respond to these events as an act of war - is this not true ? Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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I will not discuss , this nor any other issue on an unmoderated board. I feel that if cannot conducted themselves in a mature manner, it is not worth talking to them. That's fair, I'm just not yet sure where the line is. People resent the U.S. because they feel that the U.S. imposes its style of peace and justice upon the world. You are correct when you say that over the next few months, the U.S. will seek justice for what has happened. I can understand this but it I cannot support it. I don't see how anyone can refuse a country the right of self defence. We have a forum for discussing matters such as this and advocating responses its called the U.N. Nearliy every country in the world is represented at the U.N. and subscribes the U.N. ideal, it is acknowledged worldwide that it is the correct forum to consult when taking these type of steps. My newspaper says the UN supports the US in seeking to respond to these events as an act of war - is this not true ? Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
>> I don't see how anyone can refuse a country the right of self defence.My newspaper says the UN supports the US in seeking to respond to these events as an act of war - is this not true ? I do not deny the U.S.'s right to self defence. Every country must defend the life and liberty of its citizens. It is not the right to respond to such acts of terror that I am questioning, it is the type of response the U.S. will use that worries me. The U.S. has talked every abstractily so far as to what they intend to do (possibily since they don't yet know), so therefore the U.N. cannot support any action the U.S. might take. All the U.N. has said is that they support the U.S.'s right to defend herself. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
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1/ I don't see the US as a knight in shining armour, witness Vietnam and Korea. However, I do not believe it is the great satan either, or that it acts only in self interest. I also believe nothing can justify this weeks events or detract from the right of the US to act to protect it's citizens. 2/ We can argue religion, but it will probably get ugly. While it is true that most followers of Islam are not war hungry, the Quran itself promises eternal rewards to those who die killing their enemies. Bin Laden has declared holy war on the US - to him, right or wrong, it is a matter of religion. I would temper this by again stating my concern that all Muslims not be punished for actions they would also condemn. 3/ Please provide a list of times the US has killed innocent victums deliberately. I'll give you Nagasaki in advance. It's always easy to hate and be suspicious of the guy with the biggest stick, but I'll ask you one thing - would you prefer it be the US, or Iraq ? Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
>> I also believe nothing can justify this weeks events or detract from the right of the US to act to protect it's citizens. Chris, You cannot protect your citizens against a determined terrorist with turning your society into a police state. You need to attack the root causes of the terrorism. As I said in my initial message, there is justification for these acts, but don't that doesn't cloud the issue of looking for the real reason for these attacks. Why did people feel compeled to give up their lives and attack the U.S. ? >> Please provide a list of times the US has killed innocent victims deliberately. I'll give you Nagasaki in advance. It's always easy to hate and be suspicious of the guy with the biggest stick, but I'll ask you one thing - would you prefer it be the US, or Iraq ? I feel you are personnally attacking me for asking uncomfortable questions. The world is bigger than the U.S. and Iraq, there are 8 billion of people on this planet. I am a firm believe in 'live and let live'. All i am adovcating is that the guy with the biggest stick not degerate into a school yard bully. >> Please provide a list of times the US has killed innocent victims deliberately. Last year, their where several bombings on a american embassies in several african states. Olsma Bin Laden is widely accepted to have been behind this. The U.S. responded by attacking up a phamacticals factory that was 'reportedily' producing incedures for the islamic extremists. It was in fact producing drugs to treat africa's enormous number of A.I.D.S victims. this is the type of response that concerns me. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
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>> I also believe nothing can justify this weeks events or detract from the right of the US to act to protect it's citizens. Chris, You cannot protect your citizens against a determined terrorist with turning your society into a police state. You need to attack the root causes of the terrorism. As I said in my initial message, there is justification for these acts, but don't that doesn't cloud the issue of looking for the real reason for these attacks. Why did people feel compeled to give up their lives and attack the U.S. ? >> Please provide a list of times the US has killed innocent victims deliberately. I'll give you Nagasaki in advance. It's always easy to hate and be suspicious of the guy with the biggest stick, but I'll ask you one thing - would you prefer it be the US, or Iraq ? I feel you are personnally attacking me for asking uncomfortable questions. The world is bigger than the U.S. and Iraq, there are 8 billion of people on this planet. I am a firm believe in 'live and let live'. All i am adovcating is that the guy with the biggest stick not degerate into a school yard bully. >> Please provide a list of times the US has killed innocent victims deliberately. Last year, their where several bombings on a american embassies in several african states. Olsma Bin Laden is widely accepted to have been behind this. The U.S. responded by attacking up a phamacticals factory that was 'reportedily' producing incedures for the islamic extremists. It was in fact producing drugs to treat africa's enormous number of A.I.D.S victims. this is the type of response that concerns me. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
>> I also believe nothing can justify this weeks events or detract from the right of the US to act to protect it's citizens. Chris, You cannot protect your citizens against a determined terrorist with turning your society into a police state. You need to attack the root causes of the terrorism. As I said in my initial message, there is justification for these acts, but don't that doesn't cloud the issue of looking for the real reason for these attacks. Why did people feel compeled to give up their lives and attack the U.S. ? Reasons mostly tied to religion. I don't believe they have been pushed to this position to an equal or greater degree than the US has been pushed to act as it has in that region for it's own interest. The power of the US is a direct flow on from the fact that without the US we'd all be German colonies. >> Please provide a list of times the US has killed innocent victims deliberately. I'll give you Nagasaki in advance. It's always easy to hate and be suspicious of the guy with the biggest stick, but I'll ask you one thing - would you prefer it be the US, or Iraq ? I feel you are personnally attacking me for asking uncomfortable questions. The world is bigger than the U.S. and Iraq, there are 8 billion of people on this planet. I am a firm believe in 'live and let live'. All i am adovcating is that the guy with the biggest stick not degerate into a school yard bully. You quoted this twice ? My point is I don't see the US acting like a bully, at least not in recent times and not in relation to the region in question. Russia tried to take over Afghanistan, not America. Saddam Hussein is in power by the grace of the US. >> Please provide a list of times the US has killed innocent victims deliberately. Last year, their where several bombings on a american embassies in several african states. Olsma Bin Laden is widely accepted to have been behind this. The U.S. responded by attacking up a phamacticals factory that was 'reportedily' producing incedures for the islamic extremists. It was in fact producing drugs to treat africa's enormous number of A.I.D.S victims. this is the type of response that concerns me. Were you there to know what was being produced ? You think these people will not come back with the claim most likely to embarrass the US and that the US equally would not tread carefully before deciding on such an act ? Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men wi
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I think poverty alone is not the reason. Majorly it is the attitude of the stronger, powerful people towards the weaker one's. No country or people are alone in this regard. Everybody when they have or had the chance discriminated against others. It's the resentment of not considered as an equal which breeds hatred.
There are terrorists throughout the world , each of which has a cause they firmly believe in . Worse still , one mans stand against oppression is another mans terrorism. America is justified in using force to exact revenge and punishment against the people who committed these acts , but I doubt if they can erradicate terrorism by force. I wish to see terrorism in all its forms stamped out , I hope America and the emerging alliance succeeds, but I doubt if force alone will work . Terrorism works because it takes so few people to make it effective , and History shows us that you cannot use force for ever to hold down an entire group let alone country , race or religion. Nor is there a desire to do so , the last man to target an entire race was Hitler , a man I hope we are never tempted to emulate. Dialog alone has also failed in many cases , it is hard to hold rational arguments with anyone who hates . Witness how close Isreal and the Palistinians came to an agreement , witness the hatred in my own backyard of Northern Ireland. So I do not know what the long term answer is . The only possible answer I can come up with in this as in many other areas is equality for all. But that will only stop terrorism if all people throughout the world are treated truly equaly , with equal respect , equal access to opportunity and resources , equal life expectancy and equal quality of life . At this point in time with our current system of governments this is just a pipe dream . I do not know of a system of government that can provide such a system . So in the absence of a feasable alternative I support the use of military force against terrorists . I hope it works .I fear it will not.
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1/ I don't see the US as a knight in shining armour, witness Vietnam and Korea. However, I do not believe it is the great satan either, or that it acts only in self interest. I also believe nothing can justify this weeks events or detract from the right of the US to act to protect it's citizens. 2/ We can argue religion, but it will probably get ugly. While it is true that most followers of Islam are not war hungry, the Quran itself promises eternal rewards to those who die killing their enemies. Bin Laden has declared holy war on the US - to him, right or wrong, it is a matter of religion. I would temper this by again stating my concern that all Muslims not be punished for actions they would also condemn. 3/ Please provide a list of times the US has killed innocent victums deliberately. I'll give you Nagasaki in advance. It's always easy to hate and be suspicious of the guy with the biggest stick, but I'll ask you one thing - would you prefer it be the US, or Iraq ? Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
> 3/ Please provide a list of times the US has killed innocent victums > deliberately. I'll give you Nagasaki in advance. It's always easy to > hate and be suspicious of the guy with the biggest stick, but I'll ask > you one thing - would you prefer it be the US, or Iraq ? Christian, let me remind you Beograd, Yugoslavia. And don't forget about many thousands of people burned alive with napalm in Vietnam. BTW, have the US apologized for Nagasaki? Regards, Nikolay
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>> I also believe nothing can justify this weeks events or detract from the right of the US to act to protect it's citizens. Chris, You cannot protect your citizens against a determined terrorist with turning your society into a police state. You need to attack the root causes of the terrorism. As I said in my initial message, there is justification for these acts, but don't that doesn't cloud the issue of looking for the real reason for these attacks. Why did people feel compeled to give up their lives and attack the U.S. ? Reasons mostly tied to religion. I don't believe they have been pushed to this position to an equal or greater degree than the US has been pushed to act as it has in that region for it's own interest. The power of the US is a direct flow on from the fact that without the US we'd all be German colonies. >> Please provide a list of times the US has killed innocent victims deliberately. I'll give you Nagasaki in advance. It's always easy to hate and be suspicious of the guy with the biggest stick, but I'll ask you one thing - would you prefer it be the US, or Iraq ? I feel you are personnally attacking me for asking uncomfortable questions. The world is bigger than the U.S. and Iraq, there are 8 billion of people on this planet. I am a firm believe in 'live and let live'. All i am adovcating is that the guy with the biggest stick not degerate into a school yard bully. You quoted this twice ? My point is I don't see the US acting like a bully, at least not in recent times and not in relation to the region in question. Russia tried to take over Afghanistan, not America. Saddam Hussein is in power by the grace of the US. >> Please provide a list of times the US has killed innocent victims deliberately. Last year, their where several bombings on a american embassies in several african states. Olsma Bin Laden is widely accepted to have been behind this. The U.S. responded by attacking up a phamacticals factory that was 'reportedily' producing incedures for the islamic extremists. It was in fact producing drugs to treat africa's enormous number of A.I.D.S victims. this is the type of response that concerns me. Were you there to know what was being produced ? You think these people will not come back with the claim most likely to embarrass the US and that the US equally would not tread carefully before deciding on such an act ? Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men wi
>> Reasons mostly tied to religion. I don't believe they have been pushed to this position to an equal or greater degree than the US has been pushed to act as it has in that region for it's own interest. It is too easy to write off what has happened to ignorace or religon etc. I can see why people do it, it provides security, it provides an easy reason to explain away what has happened. If only it where so ... The only way to really tackle terrorism is to ask the terrorists what is driving them to this. As unpalatable as it sounds, that is what must be done. We had to do it here and slowily millimeter by millimeter, day after day, week after week, year after year, we are slowily relising peace. >> The power of the US is a direct flow on from the fact that without the US we'd all be German colonies. The power of US comes from its wealth. It has nothing watsoever do with Germany or the World War II. >> Were you there to know what was being produced ? You think these people will not come back with the claim most likely to embarrass the US and that the US equally would not tread carefully before deciding on such an act ? U.N. observers confirmed that the site was used for the manufacture of drugs. I can see your point, however in this particular case the U.S. succeeded in embarassing themselves at cost of innocent lives. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
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> 3/ Please provide a list of times the US has killed innocent victums > deliberately. I'll give you Nagasaki in advance. It's always easy to > hate and be suspicious of the guy with the biggest stick, but I'll ask > you one thing - would you prefer it be the US, or Iraq ? Christian, let me remind you Beograd, Yugoslavia. And don't forget about many thousands of people burned alive with napalm in Vietnam. BTW, have the US apologized for Nagasaki? Regards, Nikolay
Apologize for Nagasaki!!!!!!!! :confused: ROFLMAO.
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>> I also believe nothing can justify this weeks events or detract from the right of the US to act to protect it's citizens. Chris, You cannot protect your citizens against a determined terrorist with turning your society into a police state. You need to attack the root causes of the terrorism. As I said in my initial message, there is justification for these acts, but don't that doesn't cloud the issue of looking for the real reason for these attacks. Why did people feel compeled to give up their lives and attack the U.S. ? >> Please provide a list of times the US has killed innocent victims deliberately. I'll give you Nagasaki in advance. It's always easy to hate and be suspicious of the guy with the biggest stick, but I'll ask you one thing - would you prefer it be the US, or Iraq ? I feel you are personnally attacking me for asking uncomfortable questions. The world is bigger than the U.S. and Iraq, there are 8 billion of people on this planet. I am a firm believe in 'live and let live'. All i am adovcating is that the guy with the biggest stick not degerate into a school yard bully. >> Please provide a list of times the US has killed innocent victims deliberately. Last year, their where several bombings on a american embassies in several african states. Olsma Bin Laden is widely accepted to have been behind this. The U.S. responded by attacking up a phamacticals factory that was 'reportedily' producing incedures for the islamic extremists. It was in fact producing drugs to treat africa's enormous number of A.I.D.S victims. this is the type of response that concerns me. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
Last year, their where several bombings on a american embassies in several african states. Olsma Bin Laden is widely accepted to have been behind this. The U.S. responded by attacking up a phamacticals factory that was 'reportedily' producing incedures for the islamic extremists. It was in fact producing drugs to treat africa's enormous number of A.I.D.S victims. this is the type of response that concerns me. That response did seem rash and ineffective, and I think the response will be different this time with more time spent on verifying reports where possible. You cannot protect your citizens against a determined terrorist with turning your society into a police state. You need to attack the root causes of the terrorism. As I said in my initial message, there is justification for these acts, but don't that doesn't cloud the issue of looking for the real reason for these attacks. Why did people feel compeled to give up their lives and attack the U.S. ? I think there are two separate and distinct parts to this. First and foremost it needs to be clear that any action will receive a response. In this case I think the response will send a deep and _very_ long lasting message to those who harbor terrorists, or consider it in the future. Precedent will be set here, count on it. I also agree with you that the root causes of terrorism need to be addressed. I think defining those causes is a lot harder than most people would like to believe as well. As we're talking about a worldwide response to this, a police state mentality doesn't seem probable. I don't think the fact that people were willing to give up their lives for this somehow makes their cause majestic, it just makes them stupid, and I for one refuse to allow this tactic to 'engage' me. I think the root causes of terrorism lie in the goals of 3rd world governments who feel their opportunity for empire building is eclipsed by the establishment of the west. It seems clear that the al-Qaeda and the Taliban are, essentially the same group. It seems to me that Bin Laden built the modern Afghan government with his work in organizing against the Soviets hand in hand with Mohammed Omar. It also seems clear that the Pakistani government is also tightly bound in with this. What these cowards have succeeded in doing is galvanizing the entire world, including the moderates, against them, their cause, and the countries that have nurtured them. First they and their comrades will pay the ultimate price for their choice of a method
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Chris, I will not discuss , this nor any other issue on an unmoderated board. I feel that if cannot conducted themselves in a mature manner, it is not worth talking to them. People resent the U.S. because they feel that the U.S. imposes its style of peace and justice upon the world. You are correct when you say that over the next few months, the U.S. will seek justice for what has happened. I can understand this but it I cannot support it. We have a forum for discussing matters such as this and advocating responses its called the U.N. Nearliy every country in the world is represented at the U.N. and subscribes the U.N. ideal, it is acknowledged worldwide that it is the correct forum to consult when taking these type of steps. But the U.S. won't consult the U.N. it never does. Which is another reason people resent the U.S. People say we have a forumn which we support and all agree to discuss our grievances there, in an effort to prevent another World War. And the U.S. will ignore this and carry on regardless. I am not attacking the U.S. when I say this, for it is not the only country who ignores the counsel of the U.N., all I am saying is, that if every action was taken with U.N. support people would feel less resentment towards the U.S. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
Subscribe to the U.N. ideal? LOL. Many Americans are not even comfortable subscribing to the notion of a strong federal government in our own country, and you want us to kowtow to a non-democratic pack of European intellectuals? You are going to have to wait a few generations for that, my friend. Basically, you are simply saying that if the U.S. follows U.N. instructions the world would not resent us. And if we would only cooperate and do as we are told people would not be destroying our cities. Hmmm, lets see, freedom vs. world resentment. Sorry, I think I'll take freedom. To most Americans, myself very much included, the U.N. is a waste of time, and basically nothing more than another example of the long sad history of European political imbecility. The U.N. is little more than a club where all the European Marxist (or what do you call it now, "Social Democracy") try to get the African and Asian Marxist to force the U.S. to do all the dirty work and to take all the blame when things go wrong.
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I am trying to carefully articulate myself, so as not to cause offense. I am very aware of the strong emotions people quite rightly have about this whole affair. I wish to make it clear initally, that there is no justification for terrorism (of any kind, my people have expierenced more than their fair share). I was pleased that the US administration, is taking carefully considered action against the terrorists who commmited this act. However, I feel this is just a first step in resolving the whole issue. One must acknowledge, that the terrorists are extremist wing of a culture. Therefore there must be a larger body of people who share these sentiments and support the actions of the extremists. They believed in something enough to give their lives for it. Therefore, imagine the culture they grew up in, which could instill such deep rooted feelings. Where do these feelings come from ? Mass media is indirectily responsible. Poverty is measured against the Wealthest people. For instance, a family living in country X, has enough food and shelter, to meet their needs. They look at country Y, who also has enough food and shelter, in excess of their needs. The people in country X, naturally jealous of the people in country Y, ask their leaders why this is so, and they are told (for whatever reason) that they are opressed by the people in county Y. This for people of country X is a logically plausible answer, as they can see why the people in country Y would want to protect themselves. And so resentment grows... Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
Don't give into the "What could we have done to make them not want to do this stuff". Read up on the appeasement period before WWII where everyone was giving into Germany's demands in hopes to avoid war. Guess what, it still happened. One thing you said was true, "One must acknowledge, that the terrorists are extremist wing of a culture". Our beef isn't with your average Palestinian. If fact, I don't even consider the people who did this to be Palestinians. They are just a bunch of nuts. You have to remember, this isn't about freeing the Palestinian people, this is about the destruction of enemies. Worse yet, it is about the destruction of their own people just because they do not believe in the same thing the extremists do. The hatred expressed by these extremists isn't limited to just Israel and the US. They also want to destroy countries like Egypt and Saudi Arabia. They don't care for the government systems there and want to see them replaced by revolutionary governments. The whole bit about this being about the freeing of the Palestine people is a smoke screen and a excuse. DON'T FALL FOR IT. If for some stupid reason we decided to take revenge on the Palestinians (your average 'Joe') the people who did this attack would not shed a tear for their lost people. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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Subscribe to the U.N. ideal? LOL. Many Americans are not even comfortable subscribing to the notion of a strong federal government in our own country, and you want us to kowtow to a non-democratic pack of European intellectuals? You are going to have to wait a few generations for that, my friend. Basically, you are simply saying that if the U.S. follows U.N. instructions the world would not resent us. And if we would only cooperate and do as we are told people would not be destroying our cities. Hmmm, lets see, freedom vs. world resentment. Sorry, I think I'll take freedom. To most Americans, myself very much included, the U.N. is a waste of time, and basically nothing more than another example of the long sad history of European political imbecility. The U.N. is little more than a club where all the European Marxist (or what do you call it now, "Social Democracy") try to get the African and Asian Marxist to force the U.S. to do all the dirty work and to take all the blame when things go wrong.
I hear what you are saying, it really is a bit of a toothless organization. There is however no question that we are very quickly moving toward a one world government, and it will quite likely be some evolution of the U.N. that forms this, 50 or 100 years from now. David
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>> Reasons mostly tied to religion. I don't believe they have been pushed to this position to an equal or greater degree than the US has been pushed to act as it has in that region for it's own interest. It is too easy to write off what has happened to ignorace or religon etc. I can see why people do it, it provides security, it provides an easy reason to explain away what has happened. If only it where so ... The only way to really tackle terrorism is to ask the terrorists what is driving them to this. As unpalatable as it sounds, that is what must be done. We had to do it here and slowily millimeter by millimeter, day after day, week after week, year after year, we are slowily relising peace. >> The power of the US is a direct flow on from the fact that without the US we'd all be German colonies. The power of US comes from its wealth. It has nothing watsoever do with Germany or the World War II. >> Were you there to know what was being produced ? You think these people will not come back with the claim most likely to embarrass the US and that the US equally would not tread carefully before deciding on such an act ? U.N. observers confirmed that the site was used for the manufacture of drugs. I can see your point, however in this particular case the U.S. succeeded in embarassing themselves at cost of innocent lives. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
>> Reasons mostly tied to religion. I don't believe they have been pushed to this position to an equal or greater degree than the US has been pushed to act as it has in that region for it's own interest. It is too easy to write off what has happened to ignorace or religon etc. I can see why people do it, it provides security, it provides an easy reason to explain away what has happened. If only it where so ... The only way to really tackle terrorism is to ask the terrorists what is driving them to this. As unpalatable as it sounds, that is what must be done. We had to do it here and slowily millimeter by millimeter, day after day, week after week, year after year, we are slowily relising peace. Sounds great - let's invite them over for coffee and a chat. >> The power of the US is a direct flow on from the fact that without the US we'd all be German colonies. The power of US comes from its wealth. It has nothing watsoever do with Germany or the World War II. The US grew into a super power because the rest of the world was made poor by WWII and the US got rich, through industry and so on. The amount that the US poured into Europe through the Marshall plan has been noted already. Howabout the cost of the massive airlift required to keep Berlin alive during the Russian blockade ? No-one remembers those things, do they ? ( I read a lot of history before I got back into programming ) >> Were you there to know what was being produced ? You think these people will not come back with the claim most likely to embarrass the US and that the US equally would not tread carefully before deciding on such an act ? U.N. observers confirmed that the site was used for the manufacture of drugs. I can see your point, however in this particular case the U.S. succeeded in embarassing themselves at cost of innocent lives. Maybe, I don't know the specifics. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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> 3/ Please provide a list of times the US has killed innocent victums > deliberately. I'll give you Nagasaki in advance. It's always easy to > hate and be suspicious of the guy with the biggest stick, but I'll ask > you one thing - would you prefer it be the US, or Iraq ? Christian, let me remind you Beograd, Yugoslavia. And don't forget about many thousands of people burned alive with napalm in Vietnam. BTW, have the US apologized for Nagasaki? Regards, Nikolay
Christian, let me remind you Beograd, Yugoslavia. Please do - what where when why how ? And don't forget about many thousands of people burned alive with napalm in Vietnam. Vietnam was a hell of a thing. There is no doubt the US should not have been there. But being there, they fought an enemy who was hidden by the people you are talking about. They didn't set out to kill civilians, they found themselves in a situation where the civilians were helping the enemy kill *them*, and they fought back. BTW, have the US apologized for Nagasaki? No, and I doubt they will. There is no doubt that Nagakasi was a gruesome science experiment. Has Japan apologised for the terrible way they treated POW's ? The knife cuts both ways, and the incident is 56 years ago. It has little bearing on the events of today. Christian As I learn the innermost secrets of the around me, they reward me in many ways to keep quiet. Men with pierced ears are better prepared for marriage. They've experienced pain and bought Jewellery.
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I hear what you are saying, it really is a bit of a toothless organization. There is however no question that we are very quickly moving toward a one world government, and it will quite likely be some evolution of the U.N. that forms this, 50 or 100 years from now. David
Yeah, but you got to admit that their Secretaries all seem to have had great sounding names. Michael Martin Pegasystems Pty Ltd Australia martm@pegasystems.com +61 413-004-018 "Don't belong. Never join. Think for yourself. Peace" - Victor Stone