Software outsourcing
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I was working for a company who recently started outsourcing some of their work to an Indian company. They might have been cheaper than their UK counterparts, but their work was excellent. I couldn't find any fault with their quality. Michael 'War is at best barbarism...Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.' - General William Sherman, 1879
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Michael P Butler wrote: As I work with small to medium size business, then I don't see it as an issue. You totally miss the point. Does not matter where you are located, it is a global killer. If one country charges less to work selling themselves short, then the other countries economy drops due to workers being displaced. As their economies drop, maybe their will sink lower and charge less for work to pick up more jobs. Now other countries have the same problem. A circle to poverty for everyone buy a handful of people who control the large companies playing games with peoples lives. Not bad if you are one of the few who owns a large company raping every one into slave labor. Sound drastic? Well, I would hate to see what would have happened to the U.S. economy had Tech not have came along to bail it out. Now Tech is sliding, it does not look real rosy! Mr. Wilson, has an excellent phrase: Think globally, act locally! The only way to provide a stable economy (other than one rich person and the rest slaves) it to protect, yes I am using that word, the economy of each country by making sure jobs remain in their country. Back in the days when the U.S. had a battle with automobile imports, it appeared that all our companies were bound for the scape yard. If I remember correctly, the government stepped in and imposed tariffs to make the price of those imports closer to the price of locally built machines. This was fair to provide protection to our local jobs. Same thing should be in effect for software. Those jobs should remain local and tariffs or something of this nature should come into play to insure they do remain in this country. Charge companies to use outside labor! It is not a lack of demand in this country for programmers, it is the greed of companies that just want to make more money at the cost of people and country! Do you think that someone outsoucing to India to create a new server software package is going to reduce the price of their products? What a joke, they will charge the same, if not more and make multitudes more revenue for the few. It is only the programmers (and not just of this country) that is damaged by this practice. I would love to see a national boycott on all companies that call themselves American and ship the jobs overseas! That is not an American company. That is not even a responible company, it is a greedy pollutant to our world! No country should be proud to host this type of company. I know I wi
Rocky Moore wrote: You totally miss the point. I was saying that it won't affect me - personally. There will always be a demand for people who can work hard and provide the right service. I'm a product of Thatcher's Britain. I've seen a lot of our old industries wiped out by the effects you describe. (Coal, Steel, Car etc). You have to learn to adapt and change to circumstances. I work for myself, I build custom solutions for small businesses. I don't get paid a fortune, because I don't need a fortune. However I do manage to pay my bills every month and still have enough to enjoy life. There will always be a need for people like me. It's just a matter of getting on my bike and finding the work. Michael 'War is at best barbarism...Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.' - General William Sherman, 1879
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... do we need visa's to move in China? :) Bye, Orbital^ ...the night is long ... but not long enought to do some real coding ...
Orbital^ wrote: do we need visa's to move in China? Yes, you do. But it's probably not a good idea. There more people looking for work there than anywhere else in the world, take the US unemployment number and multiply it by 10 at least. ;)
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Are you implying third-world coders aren't as good as coders in the West and Oz? :|
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
Vikram Punathambekar wrote: Are you implying third-world coders aren't as good as I can's speak for Mike. But here is my opinion. % wise I believe only a small amount of the Indian programmers (20%) actually have the ability to produce quality code. Most of the people I worked with turned out to be copy paste people. This might be because there is an enormous overflow of programmers. The best programmers % wise I have seen come from East Europe - Russia, Romania, Croatia, etc.
I don't choose the targets - they present themselves to me in an almost garish display of submission and sacrifice. It's my duty to react as I do. - John Simmons/Outlaw Programmer
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As long as peoply rather buy cheap than good, there's no question where this will lead. When "1st+new world" software developers can't stand up to the QUALITY challenge, they are dead.
"Der Geist des Kriegers ist erwacht / Ich hab die Macht" StS
sighist | Agile Programming | doxygenpeterchen wrote: As long as peoply rather buy cheap than good, there's no question where this will lead. People don't just choose cheap products, they choose the best products they can afford, which happens to be worse than the products they can't afford. Not every country with cheap (and cheaper) labor can produce the same quality products as India and China. Also, if the same products were produced in US and Germany with the same cost, the quality will probably be even lower.
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What kind of work (backend/processing/UI...), and how much (code monkeys, minor/architectural/design decisions=) did they do?
"Der Geist des Kriegers ist erwacht / Ich hab die Macht" StS
sighist | Agile Programming | doxygenThey created a proof of concept application for a web-based holiday reservation system. They did everything from requirements gathering through to producing a portion of the system. They've now got the job of producing the full system. There was about 4 of them on the team that came over from India. Good guys, professional - only let down by the fact that most of us couldn't understand what they were saying because of their accents. I'm not the best person to judge the quality of the code as it was a VB.NET ASP.NET system which is something I'm not too familiar with. There documentation was pretty good though. Michael 'War is at best barbarism...Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.' - General William Sherman, 1879
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Nick Parker wrote: you won't get fast, high quality code at a low price. This assert is wrong IMHO. Take codeproject code to reduce time to market for anything regarding MFC controls and the like. Then take all those people answering technical questions in newsgroups. Don't they allow a better time to market, while at the same time the guy at the other end is a complete VB schmuck? Taking advantage of InternetExplorer to steal user's name and password. Taking advantage of InternetExplorer to steal user's clipboard.
Stephane Rodriguez. wrote: This assert is wrong IMHO. Take codeproject code to reduce time to market for anything regarding MFC controls and the like. Then take all those people answering technical questions in newsgroups. Don't they allow a better time to market, while at the same time the guy at the other end is a complete VB schmuck? Ok, I buy what you are saying here, that's not entirely what I meant though. There are plenty of sources out there; CP included that promote quicker, higher quality code, however I don't think they are a complete means to the end (if that came out right). -Nick Parker
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Vikram Punathambekar wrote: Are you implying third-world coders aren't as good as I can's speak for Mike. But here is my opinion. % wise I believe only a small amount of the Indian programmers (20%) actually have the ability to produce quality code. Most of the people I worked with turned out to be copy paste people. This might be because there is an enormous overflow of programmers. The best programmers % wise I have seen come from East Europe - Russia, Romania, Croatia, etc.
I don't choose the targets - they present themselves to me in an almost garish display of submission and sacrifice. It's my duty to react as I do. - John Simmons/Outlaw Programmer
Rama Krishna wrote: The best programmers % wise I have seen come from East Europe - Russia, Romania, Croatia, etc. Do you think there is a specific reason for this? -Nick Parker
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Rama Krishna wrote: The best programmers % wise I have seen come from East Europe - Russia, Romania, Croatia, etc. Do you think there is a specific reason for this? -Nick Parker
No idea. Probably similar reasons to why best runners come from West Africa.
I don't choose the targets - they present themselves to me in an almost garish display of submission and sacrifice. It's my duty to react as I do. - John Simmons/Outlaw Programmer
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Rocky Moore wrote: You totally miss the point. I was saying that it won't affect me - personally. There will always be a demand for people who can work hard and provide the right service. I'm a product of Thatcher's Britain. I've seen a lot of our old industries wiped out by the effects you describe. (Coal, Steel, Car etc). You have to learn to adapt and change to circumstances. I work for myself, I build custom solutions for small businesses. I don't get paid a fortune, because I don't need a fortune. However I do manage to pay my bills every month and still have enough to enjoy life. There will always be a need for people like me. It's just a matter of getting on my bike and finding the work. Michael 'War is at best barbarism...Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.' - General William Sherman, 1879
Michael P Butler wrote: I was saying that it won't affect me - personally. "First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me." –Martin Niemoeller This will be you and everyone else shortly, and you're living in a dream if you think otherwise.
Todd C. Wilson (meme@nopcode.com) NOPcode.com "Flow with whatever may happen and let your mind be free: Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the Way." - Chuang-Tzu "Zen in the Martial Arts"
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Michael P Butler wrote: I was saying that it won't affect me - personally. "First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me." –Martin Niemoeller This will be you and everyone else shortly, and you're living in a dream if you think otherwise.
Todd C. Wilson (meme@nopcode.com) NOPcode.com "Flow with whatever may happen and let your mind be free: Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the Way." - Chuang-Tzu "Zen in the Martial Arts"
Todd C. Wilson wrote: This will be you and everyone else shortly, and you're living in a dream if you think otherwise. I don't usually get involved with these kind of debates because the reality depends greatly upon our own point of view. We live in a global economy, I've seen what the loss of our coal industry did to my country. Outsourcing development will not affect me directly, and there is very little I can do about the indirect effect. So I just do what I do, I provide software solutions for people who want my services - it pays the bills and puts food on the table. I'm not smart enough to think globally. I leave that to people smarter than me. Economies go up and down based on the whims of the time. People adapt, survival of the fittest and all that. Show me a way that I can make a difference. I don't work for big corporations because I've seen the way they treat people. That's why I work for myself. People will always want to do business with people they know, people with a proven track record, people who understand their problems and know how to help solve them. So that's what I do. Michael 'War is at best barbarism...Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation. War is hell.' - General William Sherman, 1879
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So I take it you're going to be changing your job path - let us know how it goes! We're all rooting for you and your new faboulous career in burger flipping!
Todd C. Wilson (meme@nopcode.com) NOPcode.com "Flow with whatever may happen and let your mind be free: Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the Way." - Chuang-Tzu "Zen in the Martial Arts"
So I take it you're going to be changing your job path - let us know how it goes! We're all rooting for you and your new faboulous career in burger flipping! :) Is it at all conceivable to you that at some point, one can give up something pretty good for something even better? Perhaps that something does not yet exist but could exist if the right people went looking for it? Perhaps the transition comes over the span of a few years or decades rather than all at once as your fears would lead you to believe? Sean Winstead
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peterchen wrote: As long as peoply rather buy cheap than good, there's no question where this will lead. People don't just choose cheap products, they choose the best products they can afford, which happens to be worse than the products they can't afford. Not every country with cheap (and cheaper) labor can produce the same quality products as India and China. Also, if the same products were produced in US and Germany with the same cost, the quality will probably be even lower.
Anonymous101 wrote: they choose the best products they can afford Software, still, yes. But wiht everyday goods, especially over here in germany, the trend is frightening.
"Der Geist des Kriegers ist erwacht / Ich hab die Macht" StS
sighist | Agile Programming | doxygen -
Michael P Butler wrote: I was saying that it won't affect me - personally. "First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me." –Martin Niemoeller This will be you and everyone else shortly, and you're living in a dream if you think otherwise.
Todd C. Wilson (meme@nopcode.com) NOPcode.com "Flow with whatever may happen and let your mind be free: Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the Way." - Chuang-Tzu "Zen in the Martial Arts"
This will be you and everyone else shortly, and you're living in a dream if you think otherwise. So you're saying the Nazis are behind outsourcing? Oh, no, wait, I get it, you're using that quote out of context to make your own point. Everyone gets your point. But I would really like it if you would see a bigger picture and drop the focus on doom and gloom. Your attitude is old to me. There have been several times that people have come across this way to me and it usually turns out to be a product more of their fear than of reality. They'd rather camp around some strategy that promises safety and protection rather than step out into the dangerous world and grow. Sean Winstead
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Michael P Butler wrote: As I work with small to medium size business, then I don't see it as an issue. You totally miss the point. Does not matter where you are located, it is a global killer. If one country charges less to work selling themselves short, then the other countries economy drops due to workers being displaced. As their economies drop, maybe their will sink lower and charge less for work to pick up more jobs. Now other countries have the same problem. A circle to poverty for everyone buy a handful of people who control the large companies playing games with peoples lives. Not bad if you are one of the few who owns a large company raping every one into slave labor. Sound drastic? Well, I would hate to see what would have happened to the U.S. economy had Tech not have came along to bail it out. Now Tech is sliding, it does not look real rosy! Mr. Wilson, has an excellent phrase: Think globally, act locally! The only way to provide a stable economy (other than one rich person and the rest slaves) it to protect, yes I am using that word, the economy of each country by making sure jobs remain in their country. Back in the days when the U.S. had a battle with automobile imports, it appeared that all our companies were bound for the scape yard. If I remember correctly, the government stepped in and imposed tariffs to make the price of those imports closer to the price of locally built machines. This was fair to provide protection to our local jobs. Same thing should be in effect for software. Those jobs should remain local and tariffs or something of this nature should come into play to insure they do remain in this country. Charge companies to use outside labor! It is not a lack of demand in this country for programmers, it is the greed of companies that just want to make more money at the cost of people and country! Do you think that someone outsoucing to India to create a new server software package is going to reduce the price of their products? What a joke, they will charge the same, if not more and make multitudes more revenue for the few. It is only the programmers (and not just of this country) that is damaged by this practice. I would love to see a national boycott on all companies that call themselves American and ship the jobs overseas! That is not an American company. That is not even a responible company, it is a greedy pollutant to our world! No country should be proud to host this type of company. I know I wi
Rocky Moore wrote: The only way to provide a stable economy (other than one rich person and the rest slaves) it to protect, yes I am using that word, the economy of each country by making sure jobs remain in their country. That is like trying to protect yourself from the boogeyman by hiding under the covers - if the boogeyman is really there the covers won't help. The only thing that is going to get all this economic disclocation under control is a one world government, probably a dictatorship of some kind. Get used to it... "The undergrowth was overgrown..."
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peterchen wrote: As long as peoply rather buy cheap than good, there's no question where this will lead. There's a saying in hardware: fast, low price, good quality - pick any two [ie, you can't have all three]. This may apply to programmers as well. The managers who get fast, low-priced, but bad-quality code only see the first two parts, and don't see the third part. --Mike-- "Big handwavy generalizations made from a position of deep ignorance is one of the biggest wastes of time on the net today. -- Joel Spolsky Ericahist | Homepage | RightClick-Encrypt | 1ClickPicGrabber
Michael Dunn wrote: fast, low price, good quality On my experience: The companies for which I have worked in US (Fortune 500 companies) and not even one company implemented ISO and/or SW-CMM levels. Almost all the companies prefer "fast" (Meeting the dealine) and "low price" (Meet/Spend less than the Budget). I come from a ISO software company India, when I try to implement the quality rules, my boss said forget the quality as long as it works, that's enough for him. But on other hand, almost all Indian offshore companies (the big firms) Quality matters a lot. I quote from a software mag: Quality is the hallmark of Indian software industry. It was in 1994, that Edward A. Gargan reported in The New York Times that the Indian software industry is breaking new grounds with a software unit in Bangalore with the Software Engineering Institute Capability Maturity Model (SEI-CMM) Level 5 certification. Since then, there has been no looking back. The quality and maturity of the Indian software industry can be assessed from the fact that of the top 300 Indian software companies, 115 of them have acquired ISO 9000 certification, while 70 more companies are in the pipeline. As of May 1998, there were only nine companies in the world which have acquired SEI Level 5 certification. Five of these nine companies are located in India. These include: Satyam, ICIL, Motorola, Tata Consultancy Services and Wipro. Today, the Indian software industry is known for high quality with cost effective rates. The Government of India also provides special benefits to quality certified software companies.
"If a jug falls upon a stone, woe to the jug. If a stone falls upon a jug, woe to the jug. Always woe to the jug"." - KaЯl
This signature was created by "Code Project Quoter". -
I don't see it happenning in the near future, going by education standards. :( Before you and Rohit decide to flame me, think for a moment- you guys are in the industry, which is quite well, as we all admit. But when it comes to education, I'm the person experiecing things firsthand, and it's X| . That's why I'd rather do my MTech at IIT :cool: rather than go for a job.
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
Vikram Punathambekar wrote: That's why I'd rather do my MTech at IIT rather than go for a job. 1. If you already got a job offer then I don't recommend studing M.Tech. It just waste of time, doesn't matter IIT/REC... You can always do the M.Tech later (from JNTU Evening college) People who didn't got job offers from campus interviews they go for M.Tech and try their luck there. 2. If you really want to go for higher studies then do MS/MBA in US. It's always added advantage if you want to return to India. But in US almost all the IT jobs the BS degree is enough. I have seen few Americans(co-workers) doing their MS in their 40+, that too b'cos companies sponsor them.
"If a jug falls upon a stone, woe to the jug. If a stone falls upon a jug, woe to the jug. Always woe to the jug"." - KaЯl
This signature was created by "Code Project Quoter". -
peterchen wrote: As long as peoply rather buy cheap than good, there's no question where this will lead. When "1st+new world" software developers can't stand up to the QUALITY challenge, they are dead. Please, don't assume that people from other countries code worse than on the US. Actually, when you outsource projects to, e.g., Brazil you can easily find a very good PhD for about US$40/hour. The guy who substituted Alan Cox on Linux Kernel updates is Marcelo Tosatti, a 19 year-old brazilian who (past year numbers) receives about US$35/hour working at Conectiva. Today, only him and Linus Torvalds control "cvs ci". Why this happens? Because we are better than you? No, not at all. I even believe that we have much more VB programmers than on the US, which proves we suck at programming. This happens because here 30% of the population starve, but the rest get a pretty decent life with a very low cost. My homemaid costs me about $120/month. Last month, 2000 people formed a queue all day long under a strong sun on Rio de Janeiro for a job to get $80/month (only 50 of them would really get the job). All of this reduces the living cost for the privileged people here, which happens to be the programmers, lawyers, engineers, and so on. I bet the same thing happens on India and China, which are the main outsourcing destinations for language reasons. Acting as a substitute for God, he becomes a dispenser of justice. - Alexandre Dumas
I'm curious why you would assume that Peter is American - he's German if I recall correctly. Cheers, Tom Archer Inside C#,
Extending MFC Applications with the .NET Framework It's better to listen to others than to speak, because I already know what I'm going to say anyway. - friend of Jörgen Sigvardsson -
Nick Parker wrote: There were no comments about third-world coders made. I have known to be wrong... but isn't the whole discussion about outsourcing to third-world countries? Anyway, forget it. :)
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
Vikram Punathambekar wrote: I have known to be wrong... but isn't the whole discussion about outsourcing to third-world countries Yes and no. The discussion is about outsourcing to third-world countries because it's cheaper. Therefore, the counter argument is that typically when your focus is strictly financial, you abandon quality. Cheers, Tom Archer Inside C#,
Extending MFC Applications with the .NET Framework It's better to listen to others than to speak, because I already know what I'm going to say anyway. - friend of Jörgen Sigvardsson -
I'm curious why you would assume that Peter is American - he's German if I recall correctly. Cheers, Tom Archer Inside C#,
Extending MFC Applications with the .NET Framework It's better to listen to others than to speak, because I already know what I'm going to say anyway. - friend of Jörgen SigvardssonTom Archer wrote: I'm curious why you would assume that Peter is American - he's German if I recall correctly. For the same reason you would assume that Peterchen's name is Peter Chen. :)
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