Software outsourcing
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Michael P Butler wrote: As I work with small to medium size business, then I don't see it as an issue. You totally miss the point. Does not matter where you are located, it is a global killer. If one country charges less to work selling themselves short, then the other countries economy drops due to workers being displaced. As their economies drop, maybe their will sink lower and charge less for work to pick up more jobs. Now other countries have the same problem. A circle to poverty for everyone buy a handful of people who control the large companies playing games with peoples lives. Not bad if you are one of the few who owns a large company raping every one into slave labor. Sound drastic? Well, I would hate to see what would have happened to the U.S. economy had Tech not have came along to bail it out. Now Tech is sliding, it does not look real rosy! Mr. Wilson, has an excellent phrase: Think globally, act locally! The only way to provide a stable economy (other than one rich person and the rest slaves) it to protect, yes I am using that word, the economy of each country by making sure jobs remain in their country. Back in the days when the U.S. had a battle with automobile imports, it appeared that all our companies were bound for the scape yard. If I remember correctly, the government stepped in and imposed tariffs to make the price of those imports closer to the price of locally built machines. This was fair to provide protection to our local jobs. Same thing should be in effect for software. Those jobs should remain local and tariffs or something of this nature should come into play to insure they do remain in this country. Charge companies to use outside labor! It is not a lack of demand in this country for programmers, it is the greed of companies that just want to make more money at the cost of people and country! Do you think that someone outsoucing to India to create a new server software package is going to reduce the price of their products? What a joke, they will charge the same, if not more and make multitudes more revenue for the few. It is only the programmers (and not just of this country) that is damaged by this practice. I would love to see a national boycott on all companies that call themselves American and ship the jobs overseas! That is not an American company. That is not even a responible company, it is a greedy pollutant to our world! No country should be proud to host this type of company. I know I wi
Rocky Moore wrote: Back in the days when the U.S. had a battle with automobile imports, it appeared that all our companies were bound for the scape yard. If I remember correctly, the government stepped in and imposed tariffs to make the price of those imports closer to the price of locally built machines. This was fair to provide protection to our local jobs. But that's not what actually happened! The Japanese imports were clobbering the domestic models because US autos sucked big time. The issue wasn't absolute price, but relative price. In other words, for the same amount of money you could buy a high quality Honda or a piece-o-sh*t Chevrolet. The tarrif's and import quotas actually drove up the price of quality cars both directly and due to a created shortage (law of supply and demand.) Without the competition, there was no incentive for US automakers to improve their product. US companies produced too many cars and crappy ones at that; the volume drove prices down and the lack of quality prevented sales, resulting in factory closures. Right now, there are few protections for the auto industry. Does anyone want to go back?
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Tom Archer wrote: Therefore, the counter argument is that typically when your focus is strictly financial, you abandon quality. Tom, I believe you've worked with enough Indians to judge for yourself. While it is true that most Indian developers do focus on financial aspects, and some do abandon quality, generalization is always bad.
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
I think you're misunderstanding my clarification of the two sides of the argument with my specific beliefs. I was simply clarifying that the majority of people don't see the outsourcing issues as an east vs west issue. They see it as a cost vs. quality issue regardless of who's doing the programming. My opinion? I think that for less money than you can hire American labour, you can hire far eastern help that is the same quality for the simple reason that cost of living is not the same. If those same far eastern programmers were to live in the US, they'd be making the same money as their American counterparts. I think that many people see it as a cost vs. quality issue because they're accustomed to comparing apples and apples. IOW, they're used to comparing the salaries of people that have the same cost of living and therefore, it's natural to assume that if one makes less he/she is inferior to one who makes more. However, in the case of outsourcing to a completely different economic reality, that changes. Cheers, Tom Archer Inside C#,
Extending MFC Applications with the .NET Framework It's better to listen to others than to speak, because I already know what I'm going to say anyway. - friend of Jörgen Sigvardsson -
Michael P Butler wrote: As I work with small to medium size business, then I don't see it as an issue. You totally miss the point. Does not matter where you are located, it is a global killer. If one country charges less to work selling themselves short, then the other countries economy drops due to workers being displaced. As their economies drop, maybe their will sink lower and charge less for work to pick up more jobs. Now other countries have the same problem. A circle to poverty for everyone buy a handful of people who control the large companies playing games with peoples lives. Not bad if you are one of the few who owns a large company raping every one into slave labor. Sound drastic? Well, I would hate to see what would have happened to the U.S. economy had Tech not have came along to bail it out. Now Tech is sliding, it does not look real rosy! Mr. Wilson, has an excellent phrase: Think globally, act locally! The only way to provide a stable economy (other than one rich person and the rest slaves) it to protect, yes I am using that word, the economy of each country by making sure jobs remain in their country. Back in the days when the U.S. had a battle with automobile imports, it appeared that all our companies were bound for the scape yard. If I remember correctly, the government stepped in and imposed tariffs to make the price of those imports closer to the price of locally built machines. This was fair to provide protection to our local jobs. Same thing should be in effect for software. Those jobs should remain local and tariffs or something of this nature should come into play to insure they do remain in this country. Charge companies to use outside labor! It is not a lack of demand in this country for programmers, it is the greed of companies that just want to make more money at the cost of people and country! Do you think that someone outsoucing to India to create a new server software package is going to reduce the price of their products? What a joke, they will charge the same, if not more and make multitudes more revenue for the few. It is only the programmers (and not just of this country) that is damaged by this practice. I would love to see a national boycott on all companies that call themselves American and ship the jobs overseas! That is not an American company. That is not even a responible company, it is a greedy pollutant to our world! No country should be proud to host this type of company. I know I wi
There is no denying that reducing the number of high paying jobs in the US and Europe will have an effect on those economies. In particular, unlike manufacturing displacement in previous decades, there are no higher paying jobs these workers can move to in mass. However, the prospect is bleak only on the short term. Any study of practical economics shows that genuine free market competition benefits everyone involved. It does not, as you attest, lead to a cycle of poverty. In time, the Indians, for example, will demand higher wages and then the jobs will shift to China. Oh wait, that's already happening. Those markets that are opening up to the free market have improving economies! Those that are protectionistic are hurting. The eventual outcome will be a world with greater parity in wages and standard-of-living. This is GOOD. A secondary issue is brain drain. If it is bad for the US to outsource to India or China, it's even worse to attract their best and brightest to work here. Before you jump up and pump your fist, if you follow your protectionist argument to its conclusion, each country would cease all imports of non-domestically produced software (and other goods.) That means no more Microsoft Windows overseas. Which means Microsoft makes less money, which means we all pay more for Windows. It also means that a HUGE market suddenly vanishes for ALL developers in the US. (Not just due to software sales, but all the other things companies sell overseas. If IBM can't sell overseas, they will be smaller and won't need to hire you, or any other developer, anyway.) As for your suggestion to boycott on all American companies that utilize non-American labor, you better lock yourself in your closet and... oops, can't do that, odds are your closet is partly made from imported products and raw materials by American companies that use non-American labor. Even your house is heated and cooled using energy created, in part, from imported goods--the domestic energy is obtained using technology and equipment not entirely produced domestically.... (Plus, the speculative bubble caused too many developers to be trained and companies to overhire. Also, if you've ever used PeopleSoft or Perot systems garbage, or looked at their pricing, you'd quickly see that one thing driving internal IS projects overseas is that the US companies were overcharging and underdelivering. The cold reality is, even IF Indian produced software is low quality it's as good or better than the crap Perot Systems, Anderson Consulting, et
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peterchen wrote: one of them said: "India? All swindlers. Be careful when you do business with them." :wtf: That's weird. Just b'cos he had bad experience with one company, he shouldn't paint all Indians with the same brush. Can you ask him what's the company name? (I am curious to know) peterchen wrote: Will customers accept a Word made in China, because it's cheap? I dono about that, but generally Chinese software developers work their butt off compared to their counterparts. I have seen few, they work like machines. I don't think China can grab anything big in the software outsourcing projects. Their hands full with consumer products and Hardware components. Here is the pic : Article[^]
"If a jug falls upon a stone, woe to the jug. If a stone falls upon a jug, woe to the jug. Always woe to the jug"." - KaЯl
This signature was created by "Code Project Quoter".Kant wrote: Just b'cos he had bad experience with one company, he shouldn't paint all Indians with the same brush 1) He was not the only one. I heard similar from others, trying to deal with Indoans (to be noted, not in SOFTWARE though). 2) Iquoted him becasue a) he was indian b) he told a lot about more than one place, and c) he summed up the other people's stuff nicely nice pic ;) Yes, I agree with the notion that china has bad chances (but heck they are gadzillions, and probably the next boomer). Indians seem to be better coders (at least their "coding" is more compatible with us westerners...)
"Der Geist des Kriegers ist erwacht / Ich hab die Macht" StS
sighist | Agile Programming | doxygen -
peterchen wrote: "India? All swindlers. Be careful when you do business with them." I invite you to come to India and see things for yourself. Anyway, this doesn't tell anything about the quality of code that we produce. ;) I don't know for sure why people outside India have such a bad impression about Indians. There could be several reasons for this in my opinion. 1. There are a lot of Indians who like to badmouth India. Oh India is so corrupt. I hate it here. <> The roads are so dirty and filthy! Yuck! <> I won't vote in these elections, the politicians are so damn corrupt! etc. You get the picture. 2. There are people, in and outside the Indian community, who can't see anyone else get ahead of them and will blame their own incompetence/whatever on improper tactics by others. 3. There are of course, some swindlers. But then you can find them everywhere. Have you had any personal experiences with Indians? I'm interested in knowing, if you don't mind sharing them. Maybe someday I'll write a book on the top 100000001 things not to do abroad if you are an Indian. :rolleyes:
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother TeresaRohit Sinha wrote: invite you to come to India and see things for yourself. India is on my travel plan anyway ;) As replied to others, only more detailed: Rohit Sinha wrote: Have you had any personal experiences with Indians? Concerning business, yes, two of them. Both were a) saying to be "careful" when doing business (strange, I know..) and b) to put it nicely "quality is not a prime concern" (both put it in more harsh words). I also talked to about half a dozen people that are or were doing business with inidian companies. Only one of them "it's not easy, but at least it's cheap", the others put it more negative - again: Quality is a problem. The general notion was that "business opportunities to avoid" are the majority, not just "some". Maybe this is just our customer's indutry, but some time ago, discussing "Programming education possibilities in india" here on CP. It did sound very similar: many "cornershops" offering to teach programming, but it's all talk and pretty signs and someone who can install VB (ok, I'm exaggerating a little here). I know Indians can write good code (and I'm really curious what makes it, e.g. compared to the chinese, where I still haven't seen much reasonable stuff). The general notion is that indians are the best coders on the world. If you grant me another generalization, I wouldn't disagree with that. However, good coders is not the only thing that makes software good. And I don't know how the outsourcing to india works out when higher ranks are relocated to there.
I'm didn't want to badmouth your country. I'm just sharing "averaged prejudices", that, when looking at a single sample, look so bad you wonder why it can describes the whole. :rose: Peter
"Der Geist des Kriegers ist erwacht / Ich hab die Macht" StS
sighist | Agile Programming | doxygen -
peterchen wrote: I've talked to guys from inidia, they painted a horrible picture - one of them said: "India? All swindlers. Be careful when you do business with them." I can't comment on this, peter* - I'm only a student, I have no idea about what the industry is like. peterchen wrote: Similar I heard about India here on CP, when we discussed Programming Education in India. You're 10000% right here, buddy! The education system SUCKS! Err.. are you referring to *my* posts here? :~ * - I know your name is not Peter Chen, but I can't think of a better name to call you than Peter. ;P What's your real name?
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
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Rohit Sinha wrote: invite you to come to India and see things for yourself. India is on my travel plan anyway ;) As replied to others, only more detailed: Rohit Sinha wrote: Have you had any personal experiences with Indians? Concerning business, yes, two of them. Both were a) saying to be "careful" when doing business (strange, I know..) and b) to put it nicely "quality is not a prime concern" (both put it in more harsh words). I also talked to about half a dozen people that are or were doing business with inidian companies. Only one of them "it's not easy, but at least it's cheap", the others put it more negative - again: Quality is a problem. The general notion was that "business opportunities to avoid" are the majority, not just "some". Maybe this is just our customer's indutry, but some time ago, discussing "Programming education possibilities in india" here on CP. It did sound very similar: many "cornershops" offering to teach programming, but it's all talk and pretty signs and someone who can install VB (ok, I'm exaggerating a little here). I know Indians can write good code (and I'm really curious what makes it, e.g. compared to the chinese, where I still haven't seen much reasonable stuff). The general notion is that indians are the best coders on the world. If you grant me another generalization, I wouldn't disagree with that. However, good coders is not the only thing that makes software good. And I don't know how the outsourcing to india works out when higher ranks are relocated to there.
I'm didn't want to badmouth your country. I'm just sharing "averaged prejudices", that, when looking at a single sample, look so bad you wonder why it can describes the whole. :rose: Peter
"Der Geist des Kriegers ist erwacht / Ich hab die Macht" StS
sighist | Agile Programming | doxygenOK, that was a fair analysis of what you feel and why. peterchen wrote: to be "careful" when doing business peterchen wrote: quality is not a prime concern You know what, I feel that businesses all over the world try to get away with delivering as low quatlity stuff as they think they can get away with, and then some. But this second part did surprise me a bit, since of all the things I've heard about Indian companies, this has never been one of them. Maybe the people you spoke to had some bad experiences. My advice to them would be to "be 'careful' when doing business". ;P This applies to anyone, from any country, doesn't it? Businesses are run by people, and you get all kinds of them. Can't see how this specifically applies to just one particuar country. Anyway, I do realize that we Indians need to work on our image too, if we want to, well, get ahead. Don't let all the Indians be judged because of a few. Unfortunately I've only worked closely with Indians, and not with people from other countries, so I cannot make a just comparison. peterchen wrote: I'm didn't want to badmouth your country. I understand that :), I used the word in relation to the Indians who go abroad and complain that India and Indians suck, when they themselves have left the country to deal with the situation on its own. :rose: Please understand that I was not trying to flame you, but understand why some people think the way they do about Indians.
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother Teresa -
Vikram Punathambekar wrote: You're 10000% right here, buddy! The education system SUCKS! Do you mean the "Education System", as in the education system, or the programming currliculum that your college has?
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother TeresaRohit Sinha wrote: Do you mean the "Education System", as in the education system, or the programming currliculum that your college has? Certainly not the whole of India- I can't make such a sweeping statement, but *at least* all of TN. And TN is supposed to be the best for college education. :(
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
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Vikram Punathambekar wrote: You're 10000% right here, buddy! The education system SUCKS! :omg: :wtf: :confused: :~ :| X| :suss: :eek: :zzz: I forgive b'cos you haven't seen the world. Education system is good, only the policies governed by Govt sucks. (ex: giving priority to caste than percentage of marks...) Read the interesting articles here.[^]
"If a jug falls upon a stone, woe to the jug. If a stone falls upon a jug, woe to the jug. Always woe to the jug"." - KaЯl
This signature was created by "Code Project Quoter".Kant wrote: I forgive b'cos you haven't seen the world. I'm learning, master. ;P Seriously, though the quality of education is slowly improving, it has a loooong way to go. Heard of Amrita ( www.amrita.edu )? It's :cool: !
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
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Vikram Punathambekar wrote: But when it comes to education, I'm the person experiecing things firsthand, and it's X| . I have gone through education too, and I've seen my friends and cousins too, and believe me, it's not as bad as you think. Spoonfeeding is not what the Indian education system is all about. It's about making you learn concepts, not memorise things. It's about making you confident about the real world that you are going into, by instilling in you an ability to probe further, work harder, and see things for yourself. It's about letting you make your own decisions, and learn from others' experiences and your own too. So in my college, Comp Sc dept for example, they taught us C in the first year, and then no other language. People were free to choose whatever language they wanted to implement their project in, as long as it met the specs, it was OK. They could choose to learn no other languages, or learn any number of languages as they wanted. Of course, they could consult the professors in case of difficulties. If you tell me that my college was an IIT, and IITs are the best in India, let me tell you that the situation is not much different in other colleges. There are some differences of course, and each univ/college has its own system. But the principle is the same. Make the student study.
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother TeresaI must remind you that my replies in this post are based on my personal experiences and 100% true. Rohit Sinha wrote: It's about making you learn concepts, not memorise things. It's about making you memorize things, not learn concepts. Rohit Sinha wrote: It's about making you confident about the real world that you are going into, by instilling in you an ability to probe further, work harder, and see things for yourself. Totally wrong, IMO. Rohit Sinha wrote: It's about letting you make your own decisions, and learn from others' experiences and your own too. This is true, admittedly. I have chosen my own path, and I'm happy. Rohit Sinha wrote: There are some differences of course, and each univ/college has its own system. But the principle is the same. Make the student study. Make the student study whatever is in the f***ing text book and do nothing else. If the student knows that something in the book is wrong (errors do creep in) or that what is being taught is wrong, ask him to shut up*. After all, this is one situation in which the lecturer is assured of the support of the majority of the students. If the student wants to give a talk about some new technology, stifle him (not directly, of course). * Of course, no lecturer has told me to shut up directly (it's too dangerous), but that is what they say IWO. [childish whine]I _want_ to get into IIT.[/childish whine] Cheers,
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
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Rohit Sinha wrote: Do you mean the "Education System", as in the education system, or the programming currliculum that your college has? Certainly not the whole of India- I can't make such a sweeping statement, but *at least* all of TN. And TN is supposed to be the best for college education. :(
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
Vikram Punathambekar wrote: And TN is supposed to be the best for college education. :laugh: sez who? Just because there are a cudzillion and a dozen colleges over there, it's the best? What a joke!
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother Teresa -
I must remind you that my replies in this post are based on my personal experiences and 100% true. Rohit Sinha wrote: It's about making you learn concepts, not memorise things. It's about making you memorize things, not learn concepts. Rohit Sinha wrote: It's about making you confident about the real world that you are going into, by instilling in you an ability to probe further, work harder, and see things for yourself. Totally wrong, IMO. Rohit Sinha wrote: It's about letting you make your own decisions, and learn from others' experiences and your own too. This is true, admittedly. I have chosen my own path, and I'm happy. Rohit Sinha wrote: There are some differences of course, and each univ/college has its own system. But the principle is the same. Make the student study. Make the student study whatever is in the f***ing text book and do nothing else. If the student knows that something in the book is wrong (errors do creep in) or that what is being taught is wrong, ask him to shut up*. After all, this is one situation in which the lecturer is assured of the support of the majority of the students. If the student wants to give a talk about some new technology, stifle him (not directly, of course). * Of course, no lecturer has told me to shut up directly (it's too dangerous), but that is what they say IWO. [childish whine]I _want_ to get into IIT.[/childish whine] Cheers,
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
Vikram Punathambekar wrote: I must remind you that my replies in this post are based on my personal experiences and 100% true. OK, so maybe your experience was bad. Or maybe not, but you don't realise it. See my reply below. Vikram Punathambekar wrote: It's about making you memorize things, not learn concepts. I remember your post a few months back about how the Indian education system sucks. You went on and on in that post about how they don't teach you Java, C#, C++, this, that, and what not. Can you now see why they don't concentrate on teaching you languages, but algos; not syntax, but logic? Because they don't want you to memorise things, but learn concepts. They want you to learn how to think logically, and take on whatever comes your way. Remember how you used to solve maths problems in school, and even college? You are told a very few basic theorems, and are asked to solve so many problems, based on real life situations, even. In every branch of science, you are asked to learn the basics, and then are asked to solve problems which seem like scaling the everest with the help of a small nail and hammer. But they equip you aptly for the real world. Learn to appreciate these things. Vikram Punathambekar wrote: Rohit Sinha wrote: It's about making you confident about the real world that you are going into, by instilling in you an ability to probe further, work harder, and see things for yourself. Totally wrong, IMO. See my reply to your statement above, if you still think so. If you still aren't convinced, I can only ask you to wait a few years, till you have been in the real world for some time. A child who gets his meals on time in home and finds his room clean doesn't appreciate what his parents are doing to him when they ask him to keep his room clean, or when they ask him to do some shopping for the kitchen, or... You get the picture. You don't get prepared for the real world by being given a lot of money, but by being taught how to make a lot of money. Similarly you don't get prepared for the world by being taught a lot of vocational courses, as in other countries, but by teaching how to acquire those skills. Not go into a specific field, but let you adapt yourself to any one. Not learn the syntax of a few languages, but think logically and then pick up the syntax as and when the need arises. Vikram Punathambekar wrote: Make the student study whatever is in th
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Vikram Punathambekar wrote: I must remind you that my replies in this post are based on my personal experiences and 100% true. OK, so maybe your experience was bad. Or maybe not, but you don't realise it. See my reply below. Vikram Punathambekar wrote: It's about making you memorize things, not learn concepts. I remember your post a few months back about how the Indian education system sucks. You went on and on in that post about how they don't teach you Java, C#, C++, this, that, and what not. Can you now see why they don't concentrate on teaching you languages, but algos; not syntax, but logic? Because they don't want you to memorise things, but learn concepts. They want you to learn how to think logically, and take on whatever comes your way. Remember how you used to solve maths problems in school, and even college? You are told a very few basic theorems, and are asked to solve so many problems, based on real life situations, even. In every branch of science, you are asked to learn the basics, and then are asked to solve problems which seem like scaling the everest with the help of a small nail and hammer. But they equip you aptly for the real world. Learn to appreciate these things. Vikram Punathambekar wrote: Rohit Sinha wrote: It's about making you confident about the real world that you are going into, by instilling in you an ability to probe further, work harder, and see things for yourself. Totally wrong, IMO. See my reply to your statement above, if you still think so. If you still aren't convinced, I can only ask you to wait a few years, till you have been in the real world for some time. A child who gets his meals on time in home and finds his room clean doesn't appreciate what his parents are doing to him when they ask him to keep his room clean, or when they ask him to do some shopping for the kitchen, or... You get the picture. You don't get prepared for the real world by being given a lot of money, but by being taught how to make a lot of money. Similarly you don't get prepared for the world by being taught a lot of vocational courses, as in other countries, but by teaching how to acquire those skills. Not go into a specific field, but let you adapt yourself to any one. Not learn the syntax of a few languages, but think logically and then pick up the syntax as and when the need arises. Vikram Punathambekar wrote: Make the student study whatever is in th
Rohit Sinha wrote: I remember your post a few months back about how the Indian education system sucks. So how come you didn't reply, esp since I'd notified you by private mail? ;) Rohit Sinha wrote: went on and on in that post about how they don't teach you Java, C#, C++, this, that, and what not. Can you now see why they don't concentrate on teaching you languages, but algos; not syntax, but logic? No. No algos taught. The ones that were thought were pathetic. X| No implementation, just a set of simple algos. Rohit Sinha wrote: Learn to appreciate these things. You got me there. :-D Rohit Sinha wrote: The text books are well chosen most of the time. Only rarely, and even in those cases, what we study (remember, I say study, not learn) is nothing beyond that. Rohit Sinha wrote: I think you chose a wrong college. Yes. X| :mad: You know what the problem with both of us is? I crib too much. You studied in an IIT. Don't get me wrong here- I'm not saying it's bad that you studied in an IIT, I'm just saying you're out of touch (or at least out of sync ) with the rest of the colleges. I guess I'll shut up and stop whining, esp since I got a job. :|
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
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Rohit Sinha wrote: I remember your post a few months back about how the Indian education system sucks. So how come you didn't reply, esp since I'd notified you by private mail? ;) Rohit Sinha wrote: went on and on in that post about how they don't teach you Java, C#, C++, this, that, and what not. Can you now see why they don't concentrate on teaching you languages, but algos; not syntax, but logic? No. No algos taught. The ones that were thought were pathetic. X| No implementation, just a set of simple algos. Rohit Sinha wrote: Learn to appreciate these things. You got me there. :-D Rohit Sinha wrote: The text books are well chosen most of the time. Only rarely, and even in those cases, what we study (remember, I say study, not learn) is nothing beyond that. Rohit Sinha wrote: I think you chose a wrong college. Yes. X| :mad: You know what the problem with both of us is? I crib too much. You studied in an IIT. Don't get me wrong here- I'm not saying it's bad that you studied in an IIT, I'm just saying you're out of touch (or at least out of sync ) with the rest of the colleges. I guess I'll shut up and stop whining, esp since I got a job. :|
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
Vikram Punathambekar wrote: So how come you didn't reply, esp since I'd notified you by private mail? I sent you a reply to that mail, telling you that I may not be able to respond in a timely manner. Which is what happened. I got a chance to reply yesterday. ;P Vikram Punathambekar wrote: I'm not saying it's bad that you studied in an IIT, I'm just saying you're out of touch (or at least out of sync ) with the rest of the colleges. No, I'm not out of touch with the situation. I think you are being too pessimistic. I know that there are a lot of bad teachers and bad professors out there. But that doesn't mean the education system is bad. It does mean that the selection process for the teachers is bad, however. Good teachers are not rewarded properly, so they have no incentive to work hard. These days a person becomes a teacher only when he/she gets no other job. But the education system, as I have outlined in my previous post, has a lot of good points, which make it a very good system, in my opinion. Yes, I graduated from one of the IITs, the best engineering and technical colleges in India. And my college had a lot of facilities. We had very good professors, who really knew their stuff. The library of my college is the largest technical library in the whole Asia. We had very good computer labs, which were open 24 hours for the students, and there were more computers than students. There was no need for us to have our own computers (apart from playing games, watching porn, etc), simply because the labs offered much more. But the system was still the same as in the rest of India. We had to go to classes. Attendence was compulsory. Professors were gods. Girls automatically got good grades. Textbooks, exams, tests, assignments, everything. I have gone through the same things that you are now going through, believe me. The only difference was that I got good facilities and professors, while you maybe didn't. You get your assignments in the class, I used to get them in my email. But doing fancy things don't make a system good or bad. And facilities and professors are always determined by how much funding the college has and how serious it is about producing good people. Nothing to do with the education system. You are confused big time here methinks. IITs produce good technicians and scientists not because they invent a whole new teaching methodology, but because of the screening process (the IITJEE) that students have to go through to g
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Rama Krishna wrote: The best programmers % wise I have seen come from East Europe - Russia, Romania, Croatia, etc. Do you think there is a specific reason for this? -Nick Parker
Yes,it is: The school system in Romania is based on the thoretical part of software so after finishing college, we have a very strong base in computer science fundamentals. Bye, Orbital^ ...the night is long ... but not long enought to do some real coding ...
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Vikram Punathambekar wrote: So how come you didn't reply, esp since I'd notified you by private mail? I sent you a reply to that mail, telling you that I may not be able to respond in a timely manner. Which is what happened. I got a chance to reply yesterday. ;P Vikram Punathambekar wrote: I'm not saying it's bad that you studied in an IIT, I'm just saying you're out of touch (or at least out of sync ) with the rest of the colleges. No, I'm not out of touch with the situation. I think you are being too pessimistic. I know that there are a lot of bad teachers and bad professors out there. But that doesn't mean the education system is bad. It does mean that the selection process for the teachers is bad, however. Good teachers are not rewarded properly, so they have no incentive to work hard. These days a person becomes a teacher only when he/she gets no other job. But the education system, as I have outlined in my previous post, has a lot of good points, which make it a very good system, in my opinion. Yes, I graduated from one of the IITs, the best engineering and technical colleges in India. And my college had a lot of facilities. We had very good professors, who really knew their stuff. The library of my college is the largest technical library in the whole Asia. We had very good computer labs, which were open 24 hours for the students, and there were more computers than students. There was no need for us to have our own computers (apart from playing games, watching porn, etc), simply because the labs offered much more. But the system was still the same as in the rest of India. We had to go to classes. Attendence was compulsory. Professors were gods. Girls automatically got good grades. Textbooks, exams, tests, assignments, everything. I have gone through the same things that you are now going through, believe me. The only difference was that I got good facilities and professors, while you maybe didn't. You get your assignments in the class, I used to get them in my email. But doing fancy things don't make a system good or bad. And facilities and professors are always determined by how much funding the college has and how serious it is about producing good people. Nothing to do with the education system. You are confused big time here methinks. IITs produce good technicians and scientists not because they invent a whole new teaching methodology, but because of the screening process (the IITJEE) that students have to go through to g
Rohit Sinha wrote: I think you are being too pessimistic. Yes. I'd rather we stop this discussion about the Indian education system- not because I'm exasperated with you, but because I'm exasperated with myself. I'm becoming obsessed with it. Plus, now that I've got placed, I can start doing something *really* worthwhile. Just curious, but that smart chap you mentioned who's working with SAPI- is he your own brother?
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
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Rohit Sinha wrote: I think you are being too pessimistic. Yes. I'd rather we stop this discussion about the Indian education system- not because I'm exasperated with you, but because I'm exasperated with myself. I'm becoming obsessed with it. Plus, now that I've got placed, I can start doing something *really* worthwhile. Just curious, but that smart chap you mentioned who's working with SAPI- is he your own brother?
Vikram.
My soon-to-be-updated site KI klike KDE kand kuse kit, kbut KI kmust kadmit, kstarting kall knames kwith K kis ksilly. KI khope kthey kwill kgive kup kthis kwhole kscheme ksoon kand kcome kup kwith kreal knames. pI vThink aHungarian nNotation vIs iA aWonderful nThing cAnd pEveryone avShould vUse pIt aAll dThe nTime, adNo nMatter pWhat dThe nContext, adEven adWhen vSpeaking.
Vikram Punathambekar wrote: I'd rather we stop this discussion about the Indian education system OK. Vikram Punathambekar wrote: Just curious, but that smart chap you mentioned who's working with SAPI- is he your own brother? Yes, he's my younger brother. He's just completed his 2nd year in Comp Engg.
Regards,Rohit Sinha
Do not wait for leaders; do it alone, person to person.
- Mother Teresa