Toe The Line?
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I do not think that the request was based on 'tons of proof that existed well before the WTC attack of his involvement in terrorism'. President Bush did not say he was wanted for previous acts. I am not saying he is, or isn't guilty. Tell me that what i say is all wrong and then explain it to me. bart :rose:
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Its nice of u to know who did it. Is that the point of what i asked? Now answer me carefully. Did the Taliban also have this money trail etc? NO I seem to remember that all that came after the request for the criminal. bart :rose:
Its nice of u to know who did it. Is that the point of what i asked? Now answer me carefully. Did the Taliban also have this money trail etc? NO I seem to remember that all that came after the request for the criminal. Osama Bin Laden was a known terrorist before these attacks. As Tim said, a reasonable country would have handed him over purely on that knowledge. They refused to. We should not need to provide any more proof to the Taliban, but instead of doing anything too quickly, we're releasing evidence and giving them a chance to hand Bin Laden over. No, they didn't have this money trail ahead of time, but again, Bin Laden was not just recently found to be a terrorist. The Taliban, and the rest of the world, have known about him for years.
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Its nice of u to know who did it. Is that the point of what i asked? Now answer me carefully. Did the Taliban also have this money trail etc? NO I seem to remember that all that came after the request for the criminal. bart :rose:
Heh, I can just see it now. The Taliban leaders see the proof, slap their foreheads and then say, "OMG, we were so wrong. Here he is.". RIIIIIIIIIIGHT. Don't forget, the Taliban had him under house arrest (snicker). If they were serious about it, then why did they let him go? Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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Go on and 'Pour a bucket of sun' over the whole country. While you are doing that remember Oklahoma! Remember the initial reaction, subsequent findings and punishment! Did anyone nuke the criminal and his country? The difference is that we had no evidence pointing to Bin Laden or any other Arab terrorists in Oklahoma City. Here, we've already got a money trail, wire transfers, identities of the hijackers...we know who did it, and now we're planning a retaliation against them.
As for pouring a bucket of sun over the whole country I disagree. We need concrete proof and there is none! Retaliation is not the answer. In civilised society, if someone murders someone we take them to court to get justice and try them. As long as we have evidence! SO FAR THERE IS NONE! Don't forget a bucket of sun would affect the whole world and us. The effects would be catastrophic! Only a group of sick individuals are responsible for this (whoever they are) and they need to be brought to justice. Also what right does the govt have in using its superpower status to bully other countries into helping them? Give undeniable proof. Bin Laden has already said it wasn't him and so far we know him not to be a liar as he admitted his involvement in the Embassy bombing. And isn't it weird that big leads were left - arabic pilot training manuals and a Koran were found. Let's be honest if Bin Laden and his associates carried out these atrocities with such professionalism and extreme care in planning and precision. Do you really think they would leave any evidence like that? I think not and it's probably a false trail! We need to widen the search. Find out who did this and why? It is wrong for the govt to go bullying other countries and except them to toe/tow :-D the line without any substantial proof! Rich
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It appears that anyone who has any other opinion than 'nuke em' etc is getting slammed! Why is this so? I do not condone what happened in NY an Washington, but it has happened. WE DO NOT KNOW WHO DID IT nor WHY!!!!! We can only discuss and I do not think we can make policy. Is there anyone here who wants the wrong person or people to pay for this atrocity? I do not think so. There are many points to consider, for example: The Taliban asked for evidence when President Bush requested that they hand over Osama bin Laden. This request was refused! Normally, for extradition purposes, evidence is submitted by the requesting party. This time it is - HAND HIM OVER, WHAT DO YOU NEED EVIDENCE FOR? WE WANT HIM OR ELSE... Now, slam me as well! (May they rest in peace :rose: ) bart
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The assumption that if proof was given, he would be turned over. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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The request should have been accompanied by proof. Requesting any country to hand over a criminal requires proof/evidence that will stand up to scritiny by that country! Bart
Unless that proof were obtained through confidential sources. Revelation of the proof would then be a revelation of those confidential sources thereby causing more damage than good. (I.E. loss of access to the information, loss of life of the sources themselves, etc.) Yeah I know that sounds like BS, but if you don't like it too bad. Even news reporters here in the US don't have to reveal their confidential sources. There is also a thing in the US called a Grand Jury. Grand Juries are conducted in secret because revelation of the sources of information are considered too sensitive, among other things. So we see there is a precedent for not sharing certain kinds of information. -added after original post- The diplomats from the various nations understand all of these concepts and all of the ramifications of their various decisions (well most of the time). They have much more experience doing this than your average C++ programmer :). -Sean ---- "Vigilance With Pride"
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As for pouring a bucket of sun over the whole country I disagree. We need concrete proof and there is none! Retaliation is not the answer. In civilised society, if someone murders someone we take them to court to get justice and try them. As long as we have evidence! SO FAR THERE IS NONE! Don't forget a bucket of sun would affect the whole world and us. The effects would be catastrophic! Only a group of sick individuals are responsible for this (whoever they are) and they need to be brought to justice. Also what right does the govt have in using its superpower status to bully other countries into helping them? Give undeniable proof. Bin Laden has already said it wasn't him and so far we know him not to be a liar as he admitted his involvement in the Embassy bombing. And isn't it weird that big leads were left - arabic pilot training manuals and a Koran were found. Let's be honest if Bin Laden and his associates carried out these atrocities with such professionalism and extreme care in planning and precision. Do you really think they would leave any evidence like that? I think not and it's probably a false trail! We need to widen the search. Find out who did this and why? It is wrong for the govt to go bullying other countries and except them to toe/tow :-D the line without any substantial proof! Rich
Bin Laden could have pulled the trigger and some people would still rationalize away all the proof. OMG, I read more of your message. You honestly believe what Bin Laden says because he admitted involvement in other attacks? What makes you think that a murderer would give a second thought to lying. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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Unless that proof were obtained through confidential sources. Revelation of the proof would then be a revelation of those confidential sources thereby causing more damage than good. (I.E. loss of access to the information, loss of life of the sources themselves, etc.) Yeah I know that sounds like BS, but if you don't like it too bad. Even news reporters here in the US don't have to reveal their confidential sources. There is also a thing in the US called a Grand Jury. Grand Juries are conducted in secret because revelation of the sources of information are considered too sensitive, among other things. So we see there is a precedent for not sharing certain kinds of information. -added after original post- The diplomats from the various nations understand all of these concepts and all of the ramifications of their various decisions (well most of the time). They have much more experience doing this than your average C++ programmer :). -Sean ---- "Vigilance With Pride"
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Heh, I can just see it now. The Taliban leaders see the proof, slap their foreheads and then say, "OMG, we were so wrong. Here he is.". RIIIIIIIIIIGHT. Don't forget, the Taliban had him under house arrest (snicker). If they were serious about it, then why did they let him go? Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
You have missed the point!! You must have expected the Taliban to say:- TALIBAN 1: 'Oh, the great big brothers from the west want someone in our country. Lets hand him over quick, they might throw a few sheckels our way' TALIBAN 2: 'What do they want him for?' TALIBAN 3: 'DOESN'T MATTER, YOU OLD BEARDED FOOL! JUST HAND HIM OVER' fx: music to close!!
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NO, the point is that no proof was given even after they asked for proof. No one can say if they will have handed him over! bart :rose: (musn't forget my name and rose)
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Bin Laden could have pulled the trigger and some people would still rationalize away all the proof. OMG, I read more of your message. You honestly believe what Bin Laden says because he admitted involvement in other attacks? What makes you think that a murderer would give a second thought to lying. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
Remember that film with the saying SHOW ME THE MONEY!! Well...the govt need to SHOW ME THE REAL PROOF and the rest of the world!! I've never seen such garbage in my life. If the govt has such evidence show the people! I believe we have a right to know before more innocent people are killed everywhere. If this was a court of law. The case would've been dismissed! War is not the answer, sending ships to the gulf...why? We can't even protect our borders from invasion! Whoever they are don't care. If they did they wouldn't have considered such actions. Rich
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Don't hold your breath. They are still killing each other. But back to what I guess your point is, I would nearly bet that the IRA back down a WHOLE lot after this. Does that mean they attacked the WTC? Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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Do u really think one country can just tell another to hand over a SUSPECT without showing any evidence? bart:rose:
Yes I do. However, I don't think we will be able to punish him without that proof. It presents a dilemma. At some point the US will have to come up with proof that will not violate those confidential sources of information. However, as someone has already stated, there are warrants out for his arrest here in the US for other crimes that he has been linked to, namely the first bombing of the WTC back in the early 1990's. Also we don't need definitive proof at this point. Only a reasonable suspicion. This is similar to laws here in the US where we can pick up SUSPECTS (that may or may not be guilty) that the police have a REASONABLE suspicion about in order to prevent their flight from justice. Have you thought of the fact that maybe the Taliban knows Bin Laden was involved and merely wants this information so they can find the leak and plug it?? I'm sure the US Diplomats have thought of this. -Sean ---- "Vigilance With Pride"
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You have missed the point!! You must have expected the Taliban to say:- TALIBAN 1: 'Oh, the great big brothers from the west want someone in our country. Lets hand him over quick, they might throw a few sheckels our way' TALIBAN 2: 'What do they want him for?' TALIBAN 3: 'DOESN'T MATTER, YOU OLD BEARDED FOOL! JUST HAND HIM OVER' fx: music to close!!
No, I didn't expect them to do anything other than what they are doing. Which is on one side showing political support for him while on the other trying to get him to leave the country (but I have doubts about how serious they are about that). Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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Remember that film with the saying SHOW ME THE MONEY!! Well...the govt need to SHOW ME THE REAL PROOF and the rest of the world!! I've never seen such garbage in my life. If the govt has such evidence show the people! I believe we have a right to know before more innocent people are killed everywhere. If this was a court of law. The case would've been dismissed! War is not the answer, sending ships to the gulf...why? We can't even protect our borders from invasion! Whoever they are don't care. If they did they wouldn't have considered such actions. Rich
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Yes I do. However, I don't think we will be able to punish him without that proof. It presents a dilemma. At some point the US will have to come up with proof that will not violate those confidential sources of information. However, as someone has already stated, there are warrants out for his arrest here in the US for other crimes that he has been linked to, namely the first bombing of the WTC back in the early 1990's. Also we don't need definitive proof at this point. Only a reasonable suspicion. This is similar to laws here in the US where we can pick up SUSPECTS (that may or may not be guilty) that the police have a REASONABLE suspicion about in order to prevent their flight from justice. Have you thought of the fact that maybe the Taliban knows Bin Laden was involved and merely wants this information so they can find the leak and plug it?? I'm sure the US Diplomats have thought of this. -Sean ---- "Vigilance With Pride"
Which is the exact problem that these people don't seem to realize. We tried to be nice and bring Bin Laden to trial for the earlier events. What did it get us, 6,000+ more dead people. I hope that he is brought in alive and can be brought to a court of law (and not an American linching). However, at this point, it isn't about justice for Bin Laden, it is about protecting America and other contries from continued attacks by Bin Laden. Asking nicely and showing the Taliban proof will not get us Bin Laden. Even *IF* the Taliban decided the evidence was significant, they would just then say that they don't know where he is. Which is something they already have done after THEY had him under house arrest. Tim Smith Descartes Systems Sciences, Inc.
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As for pouring a bucket of sun over the whole country I disagree. We need concrete proof and there is none! Retaliation is not the answer. In civilised society, if someone murders someone we take them to court to get justice and try them. As long as we have evidence! SO FAR THERE IS NONE! Don't forget a bucket of sun would affect the whole world and us. The effects would be catastrophic! Only a group of sick individuals are responsible for this (whoever they are) and they need to be brought to justice. Also what right does the govt have in using its superpower status to bully other countries into helping them? Give undeniable proof. Bin Laden has already said it wasn't him and so far we know him not to be a liar as he admitted his involvement in the Embassy bombing. And isn't it weird that big leads were left - arabic pilot training manuals and a Koran were found. Let's be honest if Bin Laden and his associates carried out these atrocities with such professionalism and extreme care in planning and precision. Do you really think they would leave any evidence like that? I think not and it's probably a false trail! We need to widen the search. Find out who did this and why? It is wrong for the govt to go bullying other countries and except them to toe/tow :-D the line without any substantial proof! Rich
"Only a group of sick individuals are responsible for this (whoever they are)" How do you know? These terrorists operate in the broad light of day throughout the entire middle-east. They openly recruit and train new members, they are openly funded by everybody in the middle east who has a check book. There is no mystery here. No one is hiding in the shadows. If the countries in the middle-east wanted, they could easily eliminate these terrorists groups. It looks to me as though the entire Islamic civilization is sick and will continue to produce bin Ladins forever. How do we deal with that? But what if nothing that constitutes proof is ever found? What if all we ever know is that: a) Nearly 7000 of our citizens were killed by hijackers of an Islamic fundamentalist orientation. b) Islamic Fundamentalists continue to call for "death to america". c) Islamic Fundamentalists continue to be supplied with funds, support and training facilities in middle-eastern countries. d) No national government in the middle-east does anything to shut them up and lock them up. To me, that all by itself adds up to an overt declaration of war against our civilization. What more "proof" do you want? Are we to never take any action at all without "proof" ? To simply continue to bury our dead and be 'civilized'? I disagree. Somebody obviously wants a war, and somebody ought to get one. Screw civilization. "I never met anyone I didn't like" Will Rogers.